Just_A_Guy Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I'm not. Lemme amend: I'm all for not judging individuals unrighteously. zil, The Folk Prophet, anatess2 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 On 7/23/2017 at 11:04 PM, Sweety D said: We have created this culture that has some people actually believing Mormons shouldn't or can't watch an R-rated movies or drink caffeine or wear a 2 piece bathing suit. All of which is nonsense. There is nothing doctrinal about any of these things (and many more I haven't mentioned). I am not suggesting it's bad advice to adhere to these ideas. But that's all they are, advice. Not all truth is doctrine. I believe the Pythagorean theorem is a true mathematical principle, and yet I read nothing of it in the scriptures. Your post makes it sound as if something has to be doctrine in order to be truth, or the correct way to live. That, to me, is hogwash. I am 100% confident that as we grow closer to the Lord we will abstain from these types of things regardless of their status as doctrine, or requirements, because they are true principles. There is so much filth even in rated PG-13 movies these days, there are so many abuses of caffeine, and even a one piece bathing suit would be considered immodest if the person were not swimming. Context applies, spirit of the law applies, etc. I drink caffeine from time to time, but I also can and have gone without it. You said you don't drink it for health reasons, that lone statement disproves your entire argument. If something is bad for your health than a perfect being (which is what we are commanded to become) would not drink it. How many people do you know who drink caffeine even though it is bad for that person's individual health. Regardless of culture, perfection is developed by degrees. The problem is not these cultural ideas but is more about judgement of others as you hinted: On 7/23/2017 at 11:04 PM, Sweety D said: I wish we all would stop these shameful judgements that are passed on others especially when they are doctrinally incorrect. Incorrect doctrine has nothing to do with shameful judgments. Chances are more likely that the principles are true, regardless of doctrinal status. However, we can pass shameful judgement when something is true, or when it is false. This is why you see vegan and vegetarian activists who shame meat eaters and 'command that people should abstain from meats'. People ought to be kind to one another, especially when sharing their opinions. That is all there is to it. No one should look at someone funny when they are drinking caffeine, no one should be mean to the girl who wore a two piece bathing suit, and no one should be mean to the person who watched the R rated movie. However, people absolutely have the right to voice their opinion, and if they wish to do so, should find ways to do it in as polite and kind a manner as possible. On 7/23/2017 at 11:04 PM, Sweety D said: Obey the commandments and love your family and neighbors. ". . . whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." If the prophet said something, we are supposed to listen. If a young man is instructed to not watch a rated R movie, at what age does it all of a sudden become okay? He is taught correct principles when he is young so that he will follow it all the days of his life. Backroads, a mustard seed, my two cents and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I believe that not knowing who Brandon Sanderson is is a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) On 7/23/2017 at 9:04 PM, Sweety D said: I hate our culture! Not all of it, I say that mostly for the shock and awe factor. But we need to stop citing things as Thus saith the Lord. We have created a culture that expects obedience to made up ideas. I wish we all would stop these shameful judgements that are passed on others especially when they are doctrinally incorrect. This post ...[is] because I see others deeply affected by this culture that exists within our faith. It needs to stop. Ok, Unrighteous judging is bad, and pervasive, and not helpful, and we shouldn't do it, I agree. Ok, I've seen people elevate tradition to the level of doctrine, and beat other people over the head with it, and that's not helpful, I agree. Quote Pay your tithing, go to the temple when you can, do your home/visiting teaching and fulfill your calling as best as you can. Obey the commandments and love your family and neighbors. Everything else is just noise. Even if you aren't judging others on some of these examples I have mentioned, but you are talking about them as doctrine, you are causing a problem. Stop it So, I'm assuming you're advocating we all do this to the best of our ability, right? You're not advocating we be perfect or stand condemned in the court of Sweety-D, right? I underlined the problem phrase in your ideal solution. Because there are commandments like "teach, expound, exhort", we should exhort young men to be sober minded, "warn them that are unruly", "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." Basically, we're supposed to be telling each other what to do, and calling them when they do wrong, a lot. We struggle to be good at it, but when you say "Obey the commandments", you're basically exorting us to do it better, and then you say "stop it", and it's sort of confusing. I mean, I know you have all the answers for us poor sinners, but your packaging is a little confusing. Edited July 25, 2017 by NeuroTypical person0, a mustard seed and zil 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: Lemme amend: I'm all for not judging individuals unrighteously. There you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I think one of the things I have a hard time with is why shouldn't adults follow the same counsel or guidelines as set out in For the Strength of Youth?" Why do those standards no longer apply just because they are adults? To me it doesn't change. Children and teenagers learn a lot by example. How do we teach our children to follow those guidelines they are taught in their youth if we aren't following them as well. How many times have I heard parents tell their children when asked why they can do something that they can't. "Because I'm an adult that's why." So really what are we telling them? Just follow the guidelines when you are in your youth but they don't apply as adults. It's interesting that the many years my daughter went to girl's camp they were not allowed to wear bikinis while there. The suits had to be one piece or at the very least tankinis that covered their stomachs. That was years ago but the same standards are still applying to the girls going to camp today. We are taught to watch entertainment such as movies and tv shows that are uplifting and to stay away from those that take away the Spirit. Now if someone wants to use the R-rating to help them stay on that track then by all means use it. Unfortunately, even today PG-13 movies are now what R-rated movies were a few years ago. I seriously don't see what the big deal is if people want to use the counsel they may have learned at some point in their lives to better their lives. If it works for them and helps them to live better and brings them closer to Christ, then do it. Whether one might think it's doctrinal or not. I think we get into the problem of trying to justify our bad choices. If I personally want to follow what others perceive to be a cultural problem who am I hurting? The only ones being hurt are those that are judging me and thinking I need to come out of the dark ages or contributing to the perceived problem. a mustard seed, zil, Backroads and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a mustard seed Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: I'm all for not judging individuals. But let's not pretend God is copacetic about people who deliberately expose themselves to graphic and gratuitous violence/sex/other immortality; and let's not pretend He doesn't notice when people are using sex appeal to draw attention to themselves. Let's not pretend temple attendance is irrelevant. And let's not pretend that a generalized effort to take care of our bodies, above and beyond avoiding certain verboten substances, isn't part of the intent of the Word of Wisdom. Well, we were counseled in some very recent GC talks(Hales comes to mind most recently and Holland a few years ago) to be more active in our discipleship. I think sure, you could make allowances for doing the bare minimum(whatever will get me a temple recommend) but I don't think its wrong to shoot for better or to be encouraged for better by others. And there is a difference between encouragement and judgement. I think if you like your little "sins" or things that draw you away from the Spirit, anybody saying anything about them, even in a loving manner could come across as judgemental. I also think that is pretty cunning to make the distinction "Oh, that thing that Prophet said? Not only was that YEARS ago but he was directing it only to a particular audience; it doesn't apply to anyone else." Like, what? Only men have to follow the rule but women can watch whatever they want and they're safe, they still have the Spirit with them? Or, what, when the young men hit a certain age, suddenly then it becomes ok to watch whatever the heck they want? I like the gymnastics show. I don't know, I have a weakness for energy drinks. I know they are bad for me and I try to abstain as much as I can. But I give in from time to time. If someone was with me while I got one and said something, I'd be humble enough to admit 1. they were right and 2. where it was coming from. We gain strength from each other. I counsel people against R-rated movies because it was a weakness of mine before my return to the church and it was a big contributing factor to me losing the Spirit and just ONE of the many things that helped me along the path to falling away for a time. So I'd counsel someone else not to watch them 1. to keep them safe and 2. to keep me from giving in as well, because no doubt they'd want someone to go with them and want to talk to me about it. And then I'd really want to see it. I don't know, even with my selfish motives of "hey, this might make me want to do the bad thing" I still think we can derive strength from each other. And I'm not saying I'd preach fire and brimstone but I'd give my counsel on how that sort of thing has made me feel and they coul do what they want in the end. And that's generally how I've been approached about things that I could improve on. Just_A_Guy and classylady 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, pam said: The only ones being hurt are those that are judging me and thinking I need to come out of the dark ages. People who follow the counsel of the prophets of the church are often accused of being "judgmental" but in reality, I think the other side is just as judgmental if not more so. And I'm not saying that I follow all the teachings by a long shot, for the record. Edited July 25, 2017 by MormonGator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 R rated movies? I am glad we have counsel on this. I have not seen very many, but the ones I have seen almost always have pornography in them (e.g. The Terminator, The Faculty, etc.) There certainly are R-rated movies over which you can lose your temple recommend, too (e.g. 50 shades of grey). Bikinis? Well, do you enjoy having creepy old men lust after you or your spouse? Then by all means go ahead. But be warned - nothing good can come out of wearing one, and I am sure dressing immodestly is the first step for a lot of people towards adultery. Caffeine? There is nothing wrong with that one. Indulge to your hearts content! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, DoctorLemon said: Caffeine? There is nothing wrong with that one. Indulge to your hearts content! Thank you as I sip on my Mt. Dew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, MormonGator said: People who follow the counsel of the prophets of the church are often accused of being "judgmental" but in reality, I think the other side is just as judgmental if not more so. And I'm not saying that I follow all the teachings by a long shot, for the record. Neither am I by a long shot. But I think you know what I was getting at my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, pam said: Thank you as I sip on my Mt. Dew. Diet Dr. Pepper here. That being said, as relates to indulging, two words: Kidney stones. pam and a mustard seed 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: Diet Dr. Pepper here. That being said, as relates to indulging, two words: Kidney stones. I hear if you drink a six-pack of Coke as fast as you can, it will dissolve your kidney stones (by the time it's all made it through your kidneys). pam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, pam said: Thank you as I sip on my Mt. Dew. Indeed.. and there are some people (like myself) who do not drink Caffeine.. And we can get along until one of us feels offended/judged because the other chooses differently and is more then happy to talk about why we/they chose differently. pam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, pam said: Neither am I by a long shot. But I think you know what I was getting at my friend. Oh for sure. You are exactly right. I think all people need to accept that others will judge you-nothing you can do about that. The only thing you can do is ignore them. Eventually preaching and finger waving to everyone gets exhausting and old. No one likes a scold, no matter what side they are on. No one will listen to them either. It's like a version of the Cassandra complex. Edited July 25, 2017 by MormonGator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, MormonGator said: Oh for sure. You are exactly right. I think all people need to accept that others will judge you-nothing you can do about that. The only thing you can do is ignore them. Eventually preaching and finger waving to everyone gets exhausting and old. No one likes a scold, no matter what side they are on. If I only chose friends who were perfect and followed everything to a "T," I'd have zero friends. Sunday21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, pam said: If I only chose friends who were perfect and followed everything to a "T," I'd have zero friends. Yup. I also feel sorry for people trying to enforce a moral standard, because the moment they make a mistake, it's over for them. Tragic that we (generic) don't understand that people are human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I disagree with the concept of just blanket ignoring those who judge you. I think it wise to consider carefully and prayerfully and then either make efforts to change if the judgement is righteous or ignore if the judgment is unrighteous. person0, anatess2 and a mustard seed 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I disagree with the concept of just blanket ignoring those who judge you. I think it wise to consider carefully and prayerfully and then either make efforts to change if the judgement is righteous or ignore if the judgment is unrighteous. You've been hitting it right out of the park today, my friend. You get to be the Judge. Edited July 25, 2017 by anatess2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Bad Karma said: 7. I look awful in a bikini, so I just don't wear 'em. I'm just doing the whole fig leaf thing 24 7 now. It's not so bad if you remember what poison ivy looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 hour ago, estradling75 said: or wear a bikini (and trust me no one want s to see that) Care to explain how you know nobody wants to see you in a bikini? What event led to this knowledge? Because I assume you aren't just guessing you look bad in a bikini but know this for a verifiable fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 47 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I believe that not knowing who Brandon Sanderson is is a sin. I'm already in trouble with the Husband for not being up-to-date on his books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Backroads said: Care to explain how you know nobody wants to see you in a bikini? What event led to this knowledge? Because I assume you aren't just guessing you look bad in a bikini but know this for a verifiable fact... I do know this... and I know that you don't want to know how I know either.. (It would be a brain bleach moment) Backroads 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 43 minutes ago, a mustard seed said: I don't know, I have a weakness for energy drinks. I know they are bad for me and I try to abstain as much as I can. But I give in from time to time. I too have the same thing. I like to think I get them rarely, but I get bouts of insomnia and I work with 8-year-olds. If I don't sleep all night, I find a dose of caffeine to be helpful to get through the day. My Molly Mormon TA is always drinking them, so that may have thrown off my perspective of how many I was getting. It wasn't until one particularly cute little boy bought me a 4-pack of Rockstars "because he saw that I liked them!) for a present that I thought I needed to be better. Now, I can saw "But the WoW doesn't mention caffeine all I want!" but surely in this day and age of medical knowledge God can expect me to figure out for myself what I ought not to be consuming. Edited July 25, 2017 by Backroads a mustard seed and Sunday21 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snigmorder Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 It has nothing to do with R-rated movies, or bikinis. Say these things aren't doctrinal all you want, or that they're great council, that's not the point. Movies are written and filled by the world and their view of things. They're full of violence, vulgarity, disgusting abuses of sex (showing or talking about it at all really,) ransacking the name of our Lord and our Father, harshness and cruelty. The movies are filled with the character of the devil, he's the one who influences these things in the earth. To tolerate these things for the sake of entertainment is a personal choice, but salvation is a personal choice. Two-piece swimsuits are nudity, they are pornographic, they are equal to the moneychangers at the temple. They are absolutely morally untenable. Caffeine is a neurotoxin and is addicting. Drink it all you want, it's not a commandment. But you shouldn't have to be commanded it all things. Regardless of whether the church claims doctrine, or whether you approve of their "advice" is irrelevant. These things are derived from uncreated truths, the way things really are, which reside in their fullness in the Eternal Civilization. Truth cannot be reduced by flustered embarrassment before the Gentiles, or an irreverent delegation of truth into memes. "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. Light and truth forsake that evil one." - D&C 93:36-37 a mustard seed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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