LDS culture problem

[Sweety D]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, you're hurt that people left the Church.  I understand this.  The previous bishop of our ward left the Church because his daughter wanted to be Pinocchio and be a real boy.  I was sad of it too.

But, the Church doesn't change just so they can keep membership.  Rather, they continue to teach Truth to those who will plant their seed of faith and allow it to take root.  Those who leave due to "culture"... they need their faith nourished.  And that nourishment does not come from telling them it's okay to watch R-rated movies.  It comes from... the usual... studying scriptures, praying, fasting, pleading in all humility for the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and... of course, to study and heed the counsel of the prophets.

 

I don't expect the church to change. I HOPE we (the people) will do a better job of not judging people to the point of no return. Literally. 

[mordorbund]

Good luck separating True Doctrine(TM) from Church Culture(TM). It takes apostolic levels of inspiration to ferret out one from the other.

[Snigmorder]

13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Now see... this is how you confuse people.  Especially the foreign-speaking ones.  Words have meaning.  Nudity has meaning.  You can't just use the word to fit your own definition of it unless we are all in agreement that your definition is what we're going by.  Rather, we go by the standard English language definition so we can understand ourselves.  Nudity is devoid of clothing.  Not a stitch.

What if I called it nakedness and pornography?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Sweety D said:

Ending the R-rated discussion. To each his own. Taking a snippet from your message to respond to, then need to get some work done. 

People being judged is by far the biggest problem. I am a current Bishop of a family ward, few know better I do about how big of a problem this is. This is the number one topic I discuss with people multiple times a week. I'm telling you, people are leaving the church because of this. 

I believe the entirety of this thread has been because you're wanting to make one point (stop judging unrighteously) but you keep arguing another point (These are NOT really Commandments).  It would be more productive to say, "These are Church Standards.  But we need to remember that they are not the same as commandments.  So, we need to be more forgiving and more accepting of some people weaker in the faith, who have not gotten to live these principles."

I put myself in that weaker category.  I myself do fail in several of these areas which keeps me humble enough to show compassion to others who have also not followed such standards.  At the same time, I recognize them as something to strive towards.  Yet, several statements you said indicate you don't even believe they are standards we should even give a second thought to.

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

Didn't say it was the biggest problem in the church. Conext was 'reasons' for leaving the church. And yes, in my ward, it's the biggest reason, which is a problem. 

Sweety, I don't think culture is the problem in your ward.  I just don't see how people who have faith in Jesus Christ and the Restored gospel can lose such testimony because of culture.  They can be upset at each other, not have a good fellowship experience, etc.  But leaving the church over it is a different matter.  Especially with the way you're interpreting the counsel of the prophets.

I'm a Filipino married to an American - I'm having to navigate culture to keep my marriage.  But, yes, I can always leave my husband and blame culture for it.  That would be called... an excuse.

Edited July 25, 2017 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

Didn't say it was the biggest problem in the church. Conext was 'reasons' for leaving the church. And yes, in my ward, it's the biggest reason, which is a problem. 

Sorry...let me correct myself...

People getting judged by others is the biggest reason people are leaving the church?

Uh...okay.......taking that.....seriously. Very....very........very..........seriously. 

 

Just out of curiosity, and just for the sake of context, when your children come and tattle on each other do you always take the word of the tattler as absolute truth? Just curious.

What you have is a bunch of spoiled millennials claiming that they've been judged, and claiming that's the reason they're leaving the church. Are you really naive enough to accept that as proof positive that it's "the biggest reason"?

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Which is why that playboy centerfold I have hanging in my office is okay. She's wearing a necklace and high-heels.

Is the high heels fabric?  If not... that's still nude.  The necklace and high heels still don't have a stitch.

Edited July 25, 2017 by anatess2

[Sweety D]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Are you really naive enough to accept that as proof positive that it's "the biggest reason"?

Unfortunately this is true, at least in my Ward and Stake. As a Bishop, I am the one that speaks to these people about leaving the church.  So I can tell you with assuredness, this is what's happening. It's mostly adults, not "spoiled millennials" as you say. 

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

I don't expect the church to change. I HOPE we (the people) will do a better job of not judging people to the point of no return. Literally. 

I can agree with this.

But, not judging doesn't mean we stop teaching correct counsel just so they won't leave.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

As a Bishop,

My jaw just dropped to the floor...

Bishop Sweety, with all due respect... maybe...

No no no... I'm not gonna give a Bishop advice on how to run his ward.  What the heck was I thinking?

[Backroads]

Tangent: If you only attend your ward like you said earlier half the time, how do you handle being bishop? (No judgment, just curious)

Edited July 25, 2017 by Backroads

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Is the high heels fabric?  If not... that's still nude.  The necklace and high heels still don't have a stitch.

Ah....dang..... Lawyered!

[Vort]

20 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

I am a current Bishop of a family ward

Then, Bishop, quit wasting your precious time preaching false doctrine on an anonymous internet discussion list and get back to the serious business of supporting your family and strengthening your ward. You are doing neither by defying and denying clear Church counsel on this forum. For shame. You of all people should know better.

^^ Vort's judgment ^^

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

Unfortunately this is true, at least in my Ward and Stake. As a Bishop, I am the one that speaks to these people about leaving the church.  So I can tell you with assuredness, this is what's happening. It's mostly adults, not "spoiled millennials" as you say. 

You are naive.

[omegaseamaster75]

7 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

Unfortunately this is true, at least in my Ward and Stake. As a Bishop, I am the one that speaks to these people about leaving the church.  So I can tell you with assuredness, this is what's happening. It's mostly adults, not "spoiled millennials" as you say. 

I think this is Great!!!!!!!  Please hang around Sweety D.  Don't let these guys scare you off.

[NeuroTypical]

19 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

People being judged is by far the biggest problem. I am a current Bishop of a family ward, few know better than I do about how big of a problem this is. This is the number one topic I discuss with people multiple times a week. I'm telling you, people are leaving the church because of this. 

Well, people both leave and join the church over it's teaching on judgment.  When and when not to judge has been a constant discussion topic for as long as I've been paying attention.

World's best reading material:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng&query=

Dallin H. Oaks rocks.  That talk in 1998 rocks.  Bishop Sweety D, I'd suggest you have a nice 5th sunday presentation and go over this talk in a combined RS/PH third-hour, or some such.  If I was in your ward, you could ask me to give the presentation.  

[Sweety D]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I believe the entirety of this thread has been because you're wanting to make one point (stop judging unrighteously) but you keep arguing another point (These are NOT really Commandments).  It would be more productive to say, "These are Church Standards.  But we need to remember that they are not the same as commandments.  So, we need to be more forgiving and more accepting of some people weaker in the faith, who have not gotten to live these principles."

I put myself in that weaker category.  I myself do fail in several of these areas which keeps me humble enough to show compassion to others who have also not followed such standards.  At the same time, I recognize them as something to strive towards.  Yet, several statements you said indicate you don't even believe they are standards we should even give a second thought to.

I agree with you on It would be more productive to say. You are correct. I worded things very strongly. I still stand by my statements, but they could have been softer. Just hard to see people jeopardize their eternal salvation on such trivial things like being judging on drinking Coke. Obviously people that take such serious offence to such a small thing have their own problems, but over time it wears them down and they leave.

[Sweety D]

9 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Tangent: If you only attend your ward like you said earlier half the time, how do you handle being bishop? (No judgment, just curious)

In years past it was half the time. I used to travel a lot. Now, it's not as much. 

[Backroads]

@Sweety D, in your position you should have some power, in line with some inspiration, to control what's being said over the pulpit.

[Backroads]

2 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

In years past it was half the time. I used to travel a lot. Now, it's not as much. 

Ah. Gotcha.

Also slightly disappointed. Kind of hoped for some awesome schedule epic.

[pam]

*Putting on admin hat*

Let's keep politics completely out of this.  This is NOT a political thread.

[Snigmorder]

@omegaseamaster75

"So for you everything is sexuallized?"

The attitude behind this needs to be reconciled with the principles of righteousness or else it needs to be jettisoned.

It is essentially a sneer at the idea that two-piece swimsuits are immodest.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Snigmorder

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Sweety D said:

I agree with you on It would be more productive to say. You are correct. I worded things very strongly. I still stand by my statements, but they could have been softer. Just hard to see people jeopardize their eternal salvation on such trivial things like being judging on drinking Coke. Obviously people that take such serious offence to such a small thing have their own problems, but over time it wears them down and they leave.

If you say things that are wrong though, it's not just unproductive, it's...you know...wrong.

I don't expect anyone here is going to support the idea of unrighteous judgment.

When you or anyone, however, claims that someone even expressing the idea that we should avoid R-rated movies or not wear bikinis is, de facto, exercising unrighteous judgment, then you're just plain wrong.

If you were talking about how we express ourselves, okay...maybe a point of validity. But ALL expressions of such?

I still think you're incredibly naive to think that those who come to you with plans to leave the church are really, at the core of it, doing so because of others' judgments. Obviously, sometimes, some can offend others out of the church by being total jerks. But the idea that it's a church-wide cultural problem is just silly. And it's made even more silly when you use counsel that has been given us by prophets, apostles, manuals, etc., in various forms, as your core examples.

It's also utter rubbish to believe that the sin of being unrighteously judgmental is a 'church' culture problem. It's not. It's a people problem, extending even to bishops and the like. To wit: (and you keep ignoring this suggestion) you're accusations against church culture are judgmental.

If it isn't acceptable to judge someone for wearing a bikini even though we've been counseled to dress modestly, then it isn't acceptable to judge someone for being judgmental. If you want people to give a pass for imperfection then you need to give a pass for imperfections in those imperfect at giving said passes.

[eddified]

So, @The Folk Prophet I'd like to see some examples of what righteous judgement might look like when the person doing the righteous judgement is not in a leadership position in the church. I'm totally on board with the reasoning that we should judge righteous judgement - it's right out of the Book of Mormon and of course I agree with it in principle. But what does it mean to do that, for a person like me not in a leadership position in the church? I ask because I think I fall perhaps too far on the side of "live and let live". I don't say anything when someone decides to disobey commandment X, Y or Z. I think I'm one of the least judgemental people around. And I see that as a potential problem. The BoM counsels that I should be judging righteous judgement and I'm worried that I'm not doing it. So how do I do it?

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, pam said:

*Putting on admin hat*

Let's keep politics completely out of this.  This is NOT a political thread.

Just to be clear...I didn't take "liberal" to be in reference to politics, but morality. Of course I can't speak to what others meant. But when and if I'm talking about liberal Mormons I'm not talking about those who voted for Clinton or the like. I'm talking about those who, you know...watch R-rated movies and wear bikinis.