Military service and remaining active in the church?


Flying Saint
 Share

Recommended Posts

So i wanted to start this to see if there are any active military members out there that could give advice or share their stories. I am just about to end my college carrier and am looking into joining the Navy to become a Naval Aviator. I have heard some stories about how boot-camp was and how it caused a few of my friends to question their faith. I guess my real question is, Is it hard to stay active in the church while being in the military or is it a personal devotion kind of situation? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Flying Saint said:

So i wanted to start this to see if there are any active military members out there that could give advice or share their stories. I am just about to end my college carrier and am looking into joining the Navy to become a Naval Aviator. I have heard some stories about how boot-camp was and how it caused a few of my friends to question their faith. I guess my real question is, Is it hard to stay active in the church while being in the military or is it a personal devotion kind of situation? 

It really depends on what your job and duty station are.  There is usually a chaplain kicking around for service, but the service is typically non-denominational.  If you're going into aviation, particularly fixed wing, you'll be around a chaplain much of the time.  When on shore duty, the navy still does things some weekends, but you'll typically work a more normal schedule and be mostly in the same space.  This would allow you to actually join a church.  Again, it really depends on where you are and what your mission is.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to the forum!

 I suppose it depends on what you mean by "staying active." For me, there's a difference between being active in the Church and active in the Gospel. They usually go hand in hand, but it's possible to miss out on a few sacrament meetings due to circumstances and still remain active in the gospel. It's equally possible to attend every Sunday meeting and calendar activity but not be active in the gospel. 

I have no perspective on remaining active in the church while in the military (other than having a somewhat transient feeling in the stake due to a nearby Air Force base assigning and reassigning LDS families). When it comes to remaining active in the gospel, it's probably not much different than in any other circumstance: if you make a conscious decision ahead of time to remain faithful and diligent in your daily prayer and scripture study, you'll probably pass any test of faith.

You may benefit from reading up on some of the personal histories of Apostles/prophets who have served in the military. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Flying Saint said:

So i wanted to start this to see if there are any active military members out there that could give advice or share their stories. I am just about to end my college carrier and am looking into joining the Navy to become a Naval Aviator. I have heard some stories about how boot-camp was and how it caused a few of my friends to question their faith. I guess my real question is, Is it hard to stay active in the church while being in the military or is it a personal devotion kind of situation? 

I spent five wonderful,  fun filled years in the Army and remained active.   You are right about it coming down to personal devotion.   You are either converted or not. You will be under constant tremendous pressure to compromise the Gospel standards, but that will ease to teasing and some genuine questions after a while.   However, each subsequent deployment will bring on the pressure anew. Then there will be those who simply won't back off.  Those people you ignore. 

Edited by Jojo Bags
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off- let me be the first to wish you good luck and success in your anticipated career! 

My comments are my opinion from my experience in the Army. Others will have different opinions and experiences vary. Enlisted at age 18 right out of HS- no mission. Served initial 4yr tour in Airborne Infantry- balance was (18 more years) in Reserves or Nat'l guard. Multiple deployments while in the Nat'l Guard after 9/11.

You didn't say if you are male or female, but I'm gonna assume Male. If you have not gone on a mission already and don't plan on it, get prepared to have your military service marginalized by some members of the church since you didn't first serve a mission. While military service is honorable, many members regard it as a cop out or a place for wayward boys who don't serve missions. Many a prospective wife will also regard your lack of serving a mission as a disqualifier. Everyone is free to choose, just be on-notice that military service is looked down upon DEPENDING upon if mission service did not come first. If u already went on a mission- congrats nothing to worry about then.

If you are female- well frankly you can do whatever you want, whenever you want. No obligations in terms of mission service whatsoever.

The availability of religious services will greatly depend upon what you do. Since you are planning on being an aviator- at the minimum at sea you will be on a carrier with 5500 sailors and a couple jarheads. There will be LDS services avail there. Onshore- there are lds chapels near all Naval Airfields. The enlisted ranks seem to have less access but that also depends upon what your MOS (military Occupational Specialty) is. The folks in the rear with the gear will have lots of religious access if they want it. Those in the field dong the fighting pretty much get ignored. The wars we are in now are small unit fights so our combat troops are out in squads, platoons and companies. Not many chaplains to be found, but lots of ammo and tangos needing to be shot.

All in all, there are not too many Mormons around. Military service is discouraged so this naturally results in slim numbers. One also must consider though that the percentage of Americans who serve is only about 2% or less...LDS reportedly 1.4% or less. 1.4% of LDS folks is roughly 18K personnel spread out all over the world and across five services. Given that military service is discouraged, it is interesting that 1.4% ish actually show up. If you look at strict percentages- pretty much no one in the US serves their country no matter what their faith is.

I had a blast, loved my various duty stations, made awesome friends (who actually really would give their very life for me) and got to travel a lot. Iraq was even pretty cool. 

A couple things to keep in mind- if you end up being a fighter pilot or anything that drops bombs or shoots missiles /machine guns you will be killing people for sure. In this Current Operating Environment (COE) there is no escaping that. If you cant do that- fly a cargo plane. No matter what you fly- if you get shot down ----well you can do the math on those consequences. That's something to think about eh?  

I got nuked by a few bombs and have not been the same since. Multiple physical injuries- all of which are permanent are my reward for serving. Too bad-so-sad right?I'm lucky though, I have lost several personal friends in combat so get ready for that- who knows it might be you. Just being real. I wouldn't trade the overall experience for any other.


Anyway- good luck, do good and stay safe!  We need good people out there since so few want to actually serve.

https://www.lds.org/callings/military-relations?lang=eng

 

on edit-

Someone mentioned reading experiences of some of the GAs who have served. I agree except in the case of Paul H Dunn. He was caught lying about many of his experiences in WW2. Although he never (not to my knowledge) admitted which things he did lie about, he did write an open letter to church membership stating he embellished many stories in order to I guess add drama or whatever to them. There was investigative work done by a reporter who proved many things were false. Anyway- he was censured by the church and coincidentally placed on "emeritus" status soon afterwards. Strangely, none of his stories have been pulled from church pubs even though they were admittedly fabricated in many cases. Except for his stories, the balance I am sure would be good to read.

Edited by paracaidista508
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Flying Saint said:

Thank you, 

Grunt, seashmore, and jojo bags for the advice and insight and for the quick reply. 

Back in 1982, when I was trying to decide which branch of the service I would join,  I took a tour of a destroyer docked on the Sacramento River.   My dad and oldest brother both served in the Navy, and I was thinking about continuing the tradition.   As I walked through the lower decks,  there was a slight rocking motion.   The tour lasted about 30 minutes,  but seemed like an eternity.   The slight rocking motion had made me seasick.   I joined the Army instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, paracaidista508 said:

All in all, there are not too many Mormons around. Military service is discouraged so this naturally results in slim numbers. One also must consider though that the percentage of Americans who serve is only about 2% or less...LDS reportedly 1.4% or less. 1.4% of LDS folks is roughly 18K personnel spread out all over the world and across five services. Given that military service is discouraged, it is interesting that 1.4% ish actually show up. If you look at strict percentages- pretty much no one in the US serves their country no matter what their faith is.

2

I've been a member of the Church my entire life, and I have never heard anything, doctrine or otherwise, that suggests military service is discouraged.  On the contrary, I have always been taught in Church to honor our veterans and those currently serving in the military.  While we are a church of peace, we also recognize that there are times when war is necessary, hence, The Mormon Battalion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

I've been a member of the Church my entire life, and I have never heard anything, doctrine or otherwise, that suggests military service is discouraged.  On the contrary, I have always been taught in Church to honor our veterans and those currently serving in the military.  While we are a church of peace, we also recognize that there are times when war is necessary, hence, The Mormon Battalion.

Send a 17 year old priest to the Bishop with his iPhone on RECORD and listen to the reaction when he tells him he is going in the Marines instead of going on a Mission. I guarantee you will hear some "discouragement." Better yet, have him go up on Fast Sunday and announce it. That would make for some good drama for the whole ward to gossip about.

Oh my can you imagine what his parents must be thinking??? How humiliating that must be for your parents!!---well that's what happened to me. I'm sure everywhere else the entire ward membership embraces them and tells them good job on their choice...not
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

Send a 17 year old priest to the Bishop with his iPhone on RECORD and listen to the reaction when he tells him he is going in the Marines instead of going on a Mission. I guarantee you will hear some "discouragement." Better yet, have him go up on Fast Sunday and announce it. That would make for some good drama for the whole ward to gossip about.

Oh my can you imagine what his parents must be thinking??? How humiliating that must be for your parents!!---well that's what happened to me. I'm sure everywhere else the entire ward membership embraces them and tells them good job on their choice...not

False dichotomy.  Of course choosing not to go on a mission is discouraged.  That is not the same as discouraging military service.  A return missionary who chooses military service would get a much different reaction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

Send a 17 year old priest to the Bishop with his iPhone on RECORD and listen to the reaction when he tells him he is going in the Marines instead of going on a Mission. I guarantee you will hear some "discouragement." Better yet, have him go up on Fast Sunday and announce it. That would make for some good drama for the whole ward to gossip about.

Oh my can you imagine what his parents must be thinking??? How humiliating that must be for your parents!!---well that's what happened to me. I'm sure everywhere else the entire ward membership embraces them and tells them good job on their choice...not
 

 

There might be some discouragement, but that's not what we're talking about, and that's not what you said.  What you said was that there would be a lower percentage of LDS in the military because joining the military is discouraged, which, of course, is not true.  Joining the military is not discouraged.  But, yes, joining the military before serving a mission could possibly be discouraged.

It may depend on the personality of the ward, but I know a young man in my ward who recently joined the military instead of going on a mission.  I don't know what kind of conversation he had with the Bishop, but, as far as I know, everyone in the ward wished him well.

However, any parent that feels "humiliated" that their son has chosen not to serve a mission (and yes, there are parents like that) is wrong to feel that way, as they are more concerned about appearance than anything else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

It may depend on the personality of the ward, but I know a young man in my ward who recently joined the military instead of going on a mission.  I don't know what kind of conversation he had with the Bishop, but, as far as I know, everyone in the ward wished him well.

*** I'm sure the Bishop strongly admonished him. I know I was given an earful every sunday for six months. That guy wouldn't leave me alone.

 

However, any parent that feels "humiliated" that their son has chosen not to serve a mission (and yes, there are parents like that) is wrong to feel that way, as they are more concerned about appearance than anything else.

*** This is the root of the problem. Other people looking at their kid's mission service as some kind of trophy or status symbol and that element is huge. That was one of the main things used against me (not by my parents btw) was how I was humiliating them. My Father was high up in local church leadership so he got an earful about it too- this I know. My parents were not humiliated though.
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zil said:

False dichotomy.  Of course choosing not to go on a mission is discouraged.  That is not the same as discouraging military service.  A return missionary who chooses military service would get a much different reaction.

I addressed that in my original post. Military service is only good if done after a mission. Before- not so much. Trust me I know all about that.

The statement made to me was that military service was not discouraged---with no qualifier. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, paracaidista508 said:

Strangely, none of his stories have been pulled from church pubs even though they were admittedly fabricated in many cases.

The Church is in a no-win situation with respect to Elder Dunn's writings and speeches. If the Church leaves that material in circulation, it is accused of propagating infamous lies and misstatements. On the other hand, if it deletes that material from Church sites, it will be accused of hiding wrongdoings, whitewashing history, and otherwise distorting the precious truth for its own nefarious ends.

In my judgment, the Church's best course of action is to do exactly what it has done: Acknowledge that Elder Dunn exaggerated and otherwise bent the truth on many occasions, which was taken care of privately between him and his leaders, and leave the historical record intact. I haven't heard anyone use Elder Dunn's stories in decades, so I doubt this is a pressing concern of any sort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Vort said:

The Church is in a no-win situation with respect to Elder Dunn's writings and speeches. If the Church leaves that material in circulation, it is accused of propagating infamous lies and misstatements. On the other hand, if it deletes that material from Church sites, it will be accused of hiding wrongdoings, whitewashing history, and otherwise distorting the precious truth for its own nefarious ends.

In my judgment, the Church's best course of action is to do exactly what it has done: Acknowledge that Elder Dunn exaggerated and otherwise bent the truth on many occasions , which was taken care of privately between him and his leaders, and leave the historical record intact. I haven't heard anyone use Elder Dunn's stories in decades, so I doubt this is a pressing concern of any sort.

I don't think I made it a pressing concern- just warned mister "I wanna be a pilot" he needs to keep in consideration the issue with the writings. There is no disclaimer with the writings so unless he researched it or someone told him, he would never know it was mostly BS. I agree the church is in a no win with it, but they could at least flag the material with a link re buyer beware. That would still be transparent.

I was in the active Army and quite out of touch with all things church when all this came out so I didn't know about it till this past year. This has never come up in church in the past 26 years so when I heard about it I was fairly shocked. As a kid I recall hearing a few of these stories and at that time I was somewhat suspicious. I was an avid war history reader and never read such crazy stories. Anyway I looked up the news articles about it and then checked to see if the material was still in circulation. I couldn't believe they let all those lies just sit there on LDS tools to be read by anyone (esp unsuspecting investigators) without at least a disclaimer.

Edited by paracaidista508
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your comments and stories shared, I have learned a lot and am grateful for this discussion. Also @zil though you are right and the church does teach that we should be thankful for our Service members, I am a returned missionary and since I have made this decision it has been a mixed reaction from member I know. So this could be just put as the church teaches one thing while the members struggle to understand or reject those teachings. 

 

Edited by Flying Saint
added thoughts
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Flying Saint said:

...since I have made this decision it has been a mixed reaction from member I know...

IMO, this should not surprise you in today's climate.  And I personally don't blame any Church member for being uncertain of how honorable military service is anymore.  But if anything, that may speak to our need for an increasing number of moral people within the military structure, not a decreasing number.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, zil said:

IMO, this should not surprise you in today's climate.  And I personally don't blame any Church member for being uncertain of how honorable military service is anymore.  But if anything, that may speak to our need for an increasing number of moral people within the military structure, not a decreasing number.

Zil- apparently you have knowledge of some aspect of current military affairs which may render Flying Saint's anticipated service dishonorable...and that of many others. Could you please share with us what that may be?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

Zil- apparently you have knowledge of some aspect of current military affairs which may render Flying Saint's anticipated service dishonorable...and that of many others. Could you please share with us what that may be?

No, I don't.  I said I can understand how some might be uncertain of how honorable it may be to serve in the military these days.  I cannot blame anyone for feeling uncertain about these things, or even coming to different conclusions given all the reports of bad behavior in the military, given the existence of those who profit from war1, given understandable disagreement about whether the US military should be doing what they're doing in location x, y, or z2, etc.

I'm not saying these are new problems, but they seem to be increasing, and are certainly more visible than in ages past.

I suspect it is not easy for one to be in the military and adhere strictly to gospel standards.  If you can, more power to you, and you are probably more needed now than ever in the past.  If you can't, well, it might be better to do something else.  I'm content to let each individual decide whether s/he can / can't and what s/he will do about it.

1 These would not be the military personnel, necessarily, but "businessmen" and politicians.  Some might call this conspiracy theory; I think in the end we will see that it was reality and that many died fighting in conflicts created or escalated strictly so that someone could make more money / have more power.

2 E.g. are all our current military actions compatible with the conditions described in the Book of Mormon for when it's OK to fight your enemies? I'm not claiming to know the answer, I am claiming it's understandable for folks to ask the questions and disagree on the answers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You may wish to educate yourself on this pamphlet: https://www.lds.org/callings/military-relations/resources-military-leaders/supporting-military-families?lang=eng

It gives instructions on how to prepare spiritually for deployment. If your local bishop or branch president is unfamiliar with such things, you may wish to familiarize him with the following: https://www.lds.org/callings/military-relations/organization-leader-responsibilites?lang=eng

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/30/2017 at 7:50 AM, Jane_Doe said:

@Bad Karma was also in the military (pinging him).

Hi, sorry I have not been on as of late, Mrs. Karma has had a list of things for me to do.  Staying "active" when deployed or otherwise unable to assemble in an LDS church, consisted of attending a generic service by a "chaplain",  sacrament was more often than not done by yourself. I just happened to be the only soldier in my unit that was LDS, I made sacrament up and took it for myself. Something present challenges, such as our rights, like sacrament. 

 

Military service during this time of war was met with slight discouragement by the Bishopric and stake president, I was married to my EX wife (Non member) at the time and returning to service was more of an attractive option to me than the bishopric's argument. So, I charged forward.

Is it hard to stay active as a member of the faith whilst in the military? Define "Active", your heart knows what you are. 
 

Edited by Bad Karma
Pesky typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/29/2017 at 5:24 PM, Flying Saint said:

So i wanted to start this to see if there are any active military members out there that could give advice or share their stories. I am just about to end my college carrier and am looking into joining the Navy to become a Naval Aviator. I have heard some stories about how boot-camp was and how it caused a few of my friends to question their faith. I guess my real question is, Is it hard to stay active in the church while being in the military or is it a personal devotion kind of situation? 

My mission president was a high ranking Air Force pilot before leaving the military. He was a stake president and a bishop before and one of the most righteous men I have ever met. It is possible :) take your opportunity in the army and expand on your gospel living. It will likely be hard (I've never done it) but trials can either make us mighty men of God, or if we give in we can become drawn away from him.

Your activity is not based on the military, but on you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share