Empathy


Recommended Posts

I have thought about this thread for a while.  I am concerned about adding some thought because I am not a great communicator.   Usually I like to try to understand what others are posting and how deep their thinking has been on a particular subject. 

Alma encourages saints to have charity for the oppressed and downtrodden.  The idea is that we lift those in need.  I believe it is a good discussion for the saints to openly discuss what it means to “suffer with those that are suffering”.   I am concerned – first because I am often accused of not caring by those closest to me.  I may not be the best to provide insights.  But besides properly lifting those in need; there two other concerns I have.

One is that it sometimes seems to me that many consider themselves downtrodden when in reality they have been foolishly building their houses on the sand.  In short, their plight is not that they are down trodden but rather that they are trodding the low road by choice.   Some will ask – who am I to judge.  That is a most important and valid question – one that I cannot answer with an insufficient opinion.   But I would point out that we are to help lift up someone – not enable them to do things that they shouldn’t.  Thus, the critical question becomes – are we encouraging them in sin or to repent of and leave sin?  If we are not in a place where we are drawn from sin ourselves – we cannot be in a place to assist those in need.

The second concern has to do with a philosophy I was raised with as a child.  The essence is – “When in need -- Don’t get angry or upset with anyone trying to help.”  As we learn better ways to help others – we should not blame and condemn (judge) others that do not employ the best methods when communicating their awkwardness in expressing something beyond their comfort zone.  The video of sympathy verses empathy is sort of an example.  If someone is being sympathetic rather than empathetic – it is not helpful to become angry and accuse them of “hateful” or “disrespectful” speech.   Putting them down is no less foolish than should someone deliberately put you down for not being happy.  Just because someone is having a bad day is no reason to make it worse and share the badness with everyone that does not “format” their expressions properly enough to suit you.  It is just as evil to assume the worst in others as it is for them to assume the worst in you.   I submit that to be happy in life that it would help to be appreciative of those sympathetic to your plight as well as those empathetic – even if it is not as much.  But the operative word here is appreciative. 

 

The Traveler

 

PS - Obviously, I am not the deeply empathic type.  Nor am I the kind to look for help from those empathic.  Yah – I am one of the dredged types that thinks problems have solutions and challenges are meant to be overcome.  Those not interested in moving forward have never been much of an interest to me.  Sorry – however, I do respect those that, like my beloved wife, can give people a hug and listen.  I work at it but I am not that good – those that want empathy – I suggest you seek a better source.  I work at this but I know I am not that good.  Please do not get angry with my poor understanding.  And for the record – I do believe some are better (spiritually gifted) than others.

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

Empathy can also be developed. There are lots of management and self-improvement resources / courses available. It starts with learning the behaviors, which over time get associated and integrated with the attendant emotions.

I need to be convinced there is value to something before I can be convinced it's worth learning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Excuse me for misinterpreting the purpose of your thread.

Thread idea: I don't think empathy is necessary or possible.

You: I think we can learn empathy.

Me: Convince me that learning empathy is important.

 

What am I missing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/31/2017 at 7:08 AM, NeuroTypical said:

You can show compassion.  You can have sympathy.  You can have empathy.  All of these are things, and there is some overlap.

To the best of my understanding, empathy is getting a lot of attention these days because (not to put too fine a point on it) chicks dig it.  They like to connect with their significant others in meaningful ways, and having a loved one feel with them is a pretty dang fulfilling way of having that happen.  It's a heck of a lot better than having someone feel sorry for you.

I think this video crystallized the concept pretty well: Behold the empathy bear!

 

Counterpoint:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh - that's the other must-see video on the subject.  Also ballyhooed by experts as something that captures the essence of common married communication issues. 

The answer, they're claiming, is that yes indeed, this issue isn't for the man to fix, or even comment on.  Vort's video says the nail is a symptom of something, not the actual something.  The wife is verbally walking around the something, maybe getting closer to it as she talks, maybe avoiding it, maybe not even aware it's there.  But what isn't helping, is hubby who can't see past the nail, and is only focused on the nail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

The answer, they're claiming, is that yes indeed, this issue isn't for the man to fix, or even comment on.  Vort's video says the nail is a symptom of something, not the actual something.  The wife is verbally walking around the something, maybe getting closer to it as she talks, maybe avoiding it, maybe not even aware it's there.  But what isn't helping, is hubby who can't see past the nail, and is only focused on the nail.

This is what drives me crazy about psychoanalytical types. (Not you, NT -- I realize you are explaining, not defending.) The "Nail" video was made to demonstrate that sometimes, it IS about the nail. You're doing something that causes you pain? Stop doing it. Problem solved. To dance around the problem and reinterpret the purpose of a video to reinforce your own interpretation is, well, less than useful.

We all realize that it's not particularly effective to tell the alcoholic, "Well, duh, stop drinking, you sot." But if we're honest, we also recognize that exactly that remedy is, in fact, what needs to happen. Saying "You poor dear, I can understand why you keep trying to drown your sorrows, and boy, that's really tough, and I'm listening" may possibly be useful at some (early) point, to some degree. But as a method of helping people overcome their weaknesses, it fails miserably, 100 times out of 100. People need to understand and accept that their actions are causing their misery, and that their misery won't cease until the actions cease.

I'm not anti-empathy. I'm anti-pretending-that-empathy-is-actually-a-cure-for-bad-behavior.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Thread idea: I don't think empathy is necessary or possible.

You: I think we can learn empathy.

Me: Convince me that learning empathy is important.

 

What am I missing?

Your OP doesn’t come across as missing the value of empathy only as questioning (A) your ability to experience it and (B) its relationship to the love and compassion you already possess. I did not consider these as indicators of your needing to be convinced it is of value. Maybe I lack empathy! LOL.

I recall a general conference talk where the speaker said in so many words, “We may not experience or understand your pain in every detail, but know that we love you and we do know Someone who does. He can help us support you, and He will support you.” To me this exemplifies "enough" empathy where the recipient can be brought to feel and obtain the love and support they need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The OP made me think of church lessons I've listened to and how often they seem to become like this thread. Then I remembered that my very first exposure to the word (empathy) was via the original Star Trek television series episode “The Empath”.  The title character was an alien who possessed a power to heal other beings’ physical suffering—but she could exercise her power only via taking others’ suffering on herself. I found it significant that she didn’t seem to have the power of speech. I liked the episode because it made me think about things I hadn't considered, and I don’t recall that it made any effort to draw contrasts with sympathy. The impact on my introspection (since I couldn’t actually heal the way she could) was to ponder the extent to which for me to emulate empathy might involve quiet and physical contact. Some of my experiences attempting it have been personal pearls. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Why is the world stuck on this whole empathy thing? It used to be we just jumped in to help others, had genuine feelings for each others ill fortunes, etc. We never used any word to parade around to show the world how to act, we just let our actions be the definition.

To characterize it as the world being stuck on an empathy thing is hardly accurate. I'm sure you and many others do have genuine compassion feelings and do as you say. But to draw it as if emphasis on one word or even as a new emphasis on individual approach to interpersonal relationships is a deterioration of the good principles you described is simply to distort things, or so I submit. 

Edited by Mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mike said:

To characterize it as the world being stuck on an empathy thing is hardly accurate. I'm sure you and many others do have genuine compassion feelings and do as you say. But to draw it as if emphasis on one word or even as a new emphasis on individual approach to interpersonal relationships is a deterioration of the good principles you described is simply to distort things, or so I submit. 

:deadthread:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • pam unfeatured this topic
  • 5 years later...

I know I'm resurrecting an ancient thread, but... My buddy and I decided to talk about Empathy, and so I had done a bunch of research on it and clarified some of my thinking.
 

Also, here's the link to the podcast I listened to about Against Empathy

https://think.kera.org/2017/01/05/the-case-against-empathy/

And the link to Paul Boom's book:

https://www.amazon.com/Against-Empathy-Case-Rational-Compassion/dp/0062339346/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=against+empathy&qid=1661005318&sprefix=against+empathy%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-1

If you don't have time to listen to the hour long video or kera podcast, here's the basics:

Empathy as a means of making moral choices is no bueno and leads to worse outcomes, not better ones. Empathy is not the end all save-the-world solution it's made out to be. Instead we should use rational compassion (with God's teachings and commands as the guiding standard) to make our moral choices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/20/2022 at 9:27 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Empathy as a means of making moral choices is no bueno and leads to worse outcomes, not better ones. Empathy is not the end all save-the-world solution it's made out to be. Instead we should use rational compassion (with God's teachings and commands as the guiding standard) to make our moral choices.

I listened to the first 15 min.  So I get the feeling of what you were talking about.  I'll reword what you said about moral decisions based on empathy.  Empathy is a tool to help you understand what is, not what should be.

I don't know exactly how this fits into the topic, but I thought I'd share an experience on empathy from last night (Sunday night).

At the beginning of each school year, I give my children a father's blessing.  By the time I got to my son "Bubba" I found that I couldn't.  All was dark as Egypt.

After a bunch of not very revealing conversation, I had to explain to my wife that Bubba did not trust me with his ventures and his plans for the future.  She didn't believe me.  I explained at length the exact feelings he was feeling.  She still didn't believe me until she asked Bubba.  He verified that everything I said was true.  He, himself, didn't realize it and couldn't verbalize it all.  But as I spoke the words, he found himself nodding in agreement that everything fit his thoughts to a "T".  In fact, as he was reacting in his mind to what I was saying, he heard me saying the same words just a moment after he thought them.

Until then my wife had been telling me that much of my depression came from me "projecting" my assumptions about how others felt about me.  But here I had verifiable proof that I wasn't merely projecting.  I was highly perceptive.  I was able to understand exactly how he felt and how other people felt.  And the truth is that most people have extremely negative feelings about almost everyone.  Couple that with the fact that a lot of people really don't know what to make of me.  I don't fit into any pigeon hole that they know.  That's very off-putting to them.

Then we moved on to asking why he didn't trust me.  He said he didn't know.  My wife (still not fully accepting my ability to empathize) just shrugged.  I finally said, "Ok.  Just how far we can push this?"  I squared myself right in front of my son.  I looked at his face and ... I "did something."  I can't explain it.  This was not just mentalism.  He has an expressionless face and he is extremely non-reactionary.  But I FELT something.

I then proceeded to explain what I had done to make him not trust me.  Realization came across his face with a sense of excitement.  "Yes!  That's it.  I know this because it all started when..."

I realize you mentioned that the definition of empathy is all over the board.  But that has to be some type of empathy.

While this experience didn't define right or wrong, it did help us get to the bottom of the issues at hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share