Few Will Find Celestial Glory


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14 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

To me I don't think we need to worry about how many people are not going to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I'm far more impressed at how many people our Savior Jesus Christ is going to save. Just look at Ether 12:27 for instance 

"And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." 

Or Moses 1:39

"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Finally Doctrine and Covenants 18:22

"And as many as repent and are baptized in my name, which is Jesus Christ, and endure to the end, the same shall be saved"

I am continually awestruck at how much good Christ has brought into my life. He is constantly helping me become better than I was before, and I am confident I will be exalted. Not because of me, but because I believe our Savior when he teaches that all who turn to him will be saved. Will many choose to turn from him and not live the way they should? Of course, but I believe when we get to the other side we will be amazed at how many men and women Christ was able to save, who we may have thought were hopeless or lost causes.

Beautiful post bud. Agree with all of it. 

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

But I thought you knew.  I actually do suffer from clinical depression.  So, you'd be correct.  I'm not sure if Rob is.  I don't get that vibe from him.

I am sorry. I did not know that you suffered from depression. I have a nasty virus so I may not b making sense. I meant client(sp?)

i would send you funny clips of Canadians apologizing but they are all interlaced with swear words!

Anyway, my apologies. I have completely lost my balance. I will sign off before I start WWW3. All best! 

 

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Just now, Sunday21 said:

I am sorry. I did not know that you suffered from depression. I have a nasty virus so I may not b making sense. I meant client(sp?)

i would send you funny clips of Canadians apologizing but they are all interlaced with swear words!

Anyway, my apologies. I have completely lost my balance. I will sign off before I start WWW3. All best! 

No, I'm not offended.  I'm very open about it.  I did not think it was any kind of attack (on Rob or me).  I just wanted clarification.

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On 8/12/2017 at 11:47 PM, DoctorLemon said:

One more thing - I looked it up, and worldwide, two thirds of Mormons are inactive worldwide.

So, if two thirds are not even coming to Church, using this benchmark you would have 33% of Mormons making Celestial.  (I do get that inactivity is not a death sentence, but it does seem to indicate lukewarmth).

Of those 33%, you may still have a number who are leading sinful lifestyles, covering their sins, etc.  I hear that 60% of Mormon men have some problems with pornography.  If maybe half of those are covering their sins rather than repenting, and other Mormons are covering different sins, and some Mormons are active but refuse tithing, question Church leaders, go only because their spouse makes them, etc., I guess you could see how the number may be 1 in 5 Mormons who are actually living worthy of the Celestial Kingdom (though, as I primarily associate with active Mormons, it seems like all Mormons are living Celestial lives).

I still don't buy 1 in 10 or 1 in 20, though.  Way too small.

I hadn't seen the 2/3 statistic before.  But look at it this way.  If the 33% is the "active" membership and the parable of the 10 virgins tells us 50% of that will make it, then we're talking about 17% actually making it.  So, the 10% to 5% is looking much more realistic.

I take Billy Graham's advice.  Don't worry about whether someone else will make it.  Just keep doing what you can to make sure you're going to make it.

Of course, that rules out stewardship.  So...?!?!

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12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I hadn't seen the 2/3 statistic before.  But look at it this way.  If the 33% is the "active" membership and the parable of the 10 virgins tells us 50% of that will make it, then we're talking about 17% actually making it.  So, the 10% to 5% is looking much more realistic.

I take Billy Graham's advice.  Don't worry about whether someone else will make it.  Just keep doing what you can to make sure you're going to make it.

Of course, that rules out stewardship.  So...?!?!

See, that's the thing.  Since most active members are presumably temple worthy, what splits out the 50% of temple worthy celestial members and the 50% temple worthy terrestrial members?  I have problems with the vague and unknown standard for reaching the celestial kingdom in this case, especially since the dividing line would seem to be exceedingly narrow and difficult to pinpoint (e.g., Brother Jones didn't desire spiritual experiences quite as much as Brother Jensen, so he is going terrestrial).  The whole idea is mighty troubling to me personally, and implies that all of us are on the knife's edge all the time, leading to paranoia, inability to enjoy life, depression, etc.

I find it much easier to believe the parable of the ten virgins applies to all Mormons, where it roughly lines up with those who are active and those who are not.  I feel this is more in line with what I have heard my entire life, that the temple recommend interview is a "dress rehearsal" for final judgment, and that the standards for getting to the Celestial Kingdom are well articulated and emphasized.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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I was going to start a new thread.  But I realized this may be the appropriate place to put this.  This is a topic that I actually lost sleep over last night.  And I feel like I've just got to tell someone.  So, why not a public forum?

I just had a conversation with a guy in my ward that knows a heck of a lot of stuff.  His calling is that of Church Historian.  He's not THE Church Historian.  But he works for that department.  He often travels to Church historical sites as well as other religious historical sites.  We even sent him a copy of my wife's great-grandmother's journal that is full of church history during the early and mid 1900s.  Wow, that makes my birthdate seem so long ago... waitaminute... it really was long ago.  Dangit!

Anyway.

We were talking about Seventies and the many changes in the Church regarding what their functions have been.  But then we meandered into so many other topics and ideas that have changed over the years.  We have had many privileges and blessings since Joseph Smith restored the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to us.  But we don't realize what we've lost because of our condemnation.  As I list these items, consider what Moses brought down from Mt Sinai before he brought the Law of Moses.  We didn't do that badly.  But we don't have everything that Joseph restored because we're under condemnation.

You recall the True Order of Prayer groups (prayer circles)?  Those did not come from out of nowhere.  In Joseph and Brigham's time, those were part of being endowed members.  Our homes really were to be temples to the Lord.  All families were invited to gather around one's living room with all endowed members and form an altar to pray around.  This was not only authorized, but encouraged.

Eventually, some families used these to form their own offshoot groups.  And many others performed the ordinance with insufficient respect and reverence.  They all missed the point entirely.  So, it was discontinued, now forbidden.  I had not known about this.  

We went on to discuss how the Seventies should actually be Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.  But because we were not worthy of it, we now only have 15 men who are so designated.  Imagine how much more light we would have with 100 such men.

Eldon G. Smith was the last man to hold the mantle of First Patriarch of the Church.  He made it 16.  Now we're down to 15.  Another blessing we've lost because we're under condemnation.  The role the First Patriarch played (per D&C 124) was rather interesting.  I'm still not quite up to speed on the exact process that would entail.

Much of what is still described in the D&C is not being practiced today (and sometimes forbidden) because we have not lived worthily of it.

The "second washing" was part of the discussion.  It is now done away.  An apostle visiting the Houston Temple when it was rennovated a long while back asked the temple president,"How many people who come through this temple have had their second washings and annointings?"  None.  That was the end of the conversation.  I never even knew that existed.

The Book of Mormon is supposed to be a Urim and Thummim for each of us.  But I don't know any who have made such a claim (i.e. that they feel it is a personal urim and thummim).

What have we lost because of our condemnation?  How many of us still are under condemnation?  "The Whole Church" saith the Lord (D&C 84).

This same brother asked President Benson when he was Prophet,"Is the Church still under condemnation?"  

"Yes".At that time, the Prophet told him there remain only two things that separate us from the sectarians: Eternal Families, The Book of Mormon.  I found it interesting that Priesthood and Holy Ghost and a slew of other things did not make the cut.  Well, as it turns out, the reason we still have priesthood is because we still value Eternal Families.  And priesthood is essential for sealing.  We still have the gift of the Holy Ghost because we still have priesthood and we are finally taking the BoM seriously.

But seriously, two things?  I hope I'm not getting too emotional.  But after that conversation, I feel a deep sense of loss over that which I never had.

So, what can we do to turn things around?  Family history, indexing, temple work, raising our kids right (Faith in God awards, Duty to God award, YW Medallion).  Study the BoM as a family and individual IN ADDITION TO all our other scripture study -- EVERY DAY. Continually pray for stronger faith and testimony.

Learn to see the Book of Mormon for the treasure it is -- How Rare a Possession.

 

Edited by Guest
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18 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

See, that's the thing.  Since most active members are presumably temple worthy, what splits out the 50% of temple worthy celestial members and the 50% temple worthy terrestrial members?  I have problems with the vague and unknown standard for reaching the celestial kingdom in this case, especially since the dividing line would seem to be exceedingly narrow and difficult to pinpoint (e.g., Brother Jones didn't desire spiritual experiences quite as much as Brother Jensen, so he is going terrestrial).  The whole idea is mighty troubling to me personally, and implies that all of us are on the knife's edge all the time, leading to paranoia, inability to enjoy life, depression, etc.

I find it much easier to believe the parable of the ten virgins applies to all Mormons, where it roughly lines up with those who are active and those who are not.  I feel this is more in line with what I have heard my entire life, that the temple recommend interview is a "dress rehearsal" for final judgment, and that the standards for getting to the Celestial Kingdom are well articulated and emphasized.

How many active members hold a temple recommend?  Not as many as we'd hope.  How many people who hold a recommend actually attend regularly?  How many lied to receive that recommend?  50% seems pretty accurate.

I believe the parable is pretty clear.  The foolish were right in the same line as the wise.  They all knew each other.  They were of the same group.  They all waited until it was inconvenient.  And they tried to come back.  None of that describes the disaffected/inactive.

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When it comes to exaltation, G-dlyness and that which is Celestial; I do not think anyone really “gets” it while in mortality.  I do not believe that anyone will find eternal life or exaltation – I believe that such things have to be taught by an expert and learned by someone willing.

I have no idea how many will become Celestial but I believe that anyone that even remotely “wants” to be Celestial will and can make it by following G-d’s Great Plan of Salvation.  But at the same time, I do not think very many (myself included) have an adequate grasp on what Celestial exaltation really is.   I believe that many “good” children of our Father in Heaven will one day come to understand the full extent of what Celestial exaltation is and will decide of their own agency that it is not for them.

Yes, my friends – I believe that we will not be “forced” into any glory by the judgments of G-d (or anyone else).  I believe that our resurrection to glory will by 100% our choice – based in full and complete understanding what we will be getting ourselves into.  I believe everyone that receives a kingdom of glory will rejoice and be glad – so much so that they will announce gladly their lot and praise G-d for helping them choose.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/9/2017 at 8:55 AM, MormonGator said:

I think everyone should be worried about their own place in the Celestial Kingdom. Not if anyone else will get there. 

Well, yes and no. I think we should be very concerned firstly about our own family, then our friends and neighbors. I'm talking about the kind of concern that makes you go out of your way and labor for the salvation of others. (Missionary work, prayer & fasting for others, temple work, home & visiting teaching). I understand your comment to indicate that we shouldn't have much, if any, of the kind of concern that is worried about numbers and statistics, and that I agree with. Just pointing out that there is a lot of room for us to righteously worry about others making the Celestial kingdom.

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

When it comes to exaltation, G-dlyness and that which is Celestial; I do not think anyone really “gets” it while in mortality.  I do not believe that anyone will find eternal life or exaltation – I believe that such things have to be taught by an expert and learned by someone willing.

I have no idea how many will become Celestial but I believe that anyone that even remotely “wants” to be Celestial will and can make it by following G-d’s Great Plan of Salvation.  But at the same time, I do not think very many (myself included) have an adequate grasp on what Celestial exaltation really is.   I believe that many “good” children of our Father in Heaven will one day come to understand the full extent of what Celestial exaltation is and will decide of their own agency that it is not for them.

Yes, my friends – I believe that we will not be “forced” into any glory by the judgments of G-d (or anyone else).  I believe that our resurrection to glory will by 100% our choice – based in full and complete understanding what we will be getting ourselves into.  I believe everyone that receives a kingdom of glory will rejoice and be glad – so much so that they will announce gladly their lot and praise G-d for helping them choose.

 

The Traveler

And to be fair, Terrestrial would still be far better than anything we have ever experienced or could even imagine.

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On 8/9/2017 at 7:53 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Heres my breakdown

Outer darkness: Less than 2% (sons of perdition)

Telestial: 100% (everyone who came to this earth in its current state)

Terrestrial: 97-100% (everyone on the earth during the millennium)

Celestial: 98% (all of the saved, everyone except for sons of perdition)

(Please keep in mind that my view of heaven is not mainstream LDS doctrine.)

I've read your ideas in other threads as well. Respectfully, I offer the following thought: I was reading the scriptures to my children, and came across this verse:

Quote

Alma 1:4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

It suddenly struck me that this sounds very similar to what you are professing. Whose teaching is this in Alma 1:4? It was Nehor's. 

Also, this FairMormon link says that a "doctrine of a type of universal salvation" (one where everyone is exalted) is one main indicator of a "modern Nehor". Now, I admit this is not exactly what you are teaching (but if I quantify it, there is only a 2% difference). I'm not saying you are a Nehor. I'm only claiming that your idea sounds awfully close to what Nehor taught.

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36 minutes ago, eddified said:

I've read your ideas in other threads as well. Respectfully, I offer the following thought: I was reading the scriptures to my children, and came across this verse:

It suddenly struck me that this sounds very similar to what you are professing. Whose teaching is this in Alma 1:4? It was Nehor's. 

Also, this FairMormon link says that a "doctrine of a type of universal salvation" (one where everyone is exalted) is one main indicator of a "modern Nehor". Now, I admit this is not exactly what you are teaching (but if I quantify it, there is only a 2% difference). I'm not saying you are a Nehor. I'm only claiming that your idea sounds awfully close to what Nehor taught.

My interpretation and understanding of the gospel is night and day different than Nehors false teachings. We are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Lets list Nehors teachings and dealings.

1. Taught against the church.

2. Taught that priests and teachers should be popular and be paid.

3. Taught that "all" man would be saved.

4. Became supported by his followers and became prideful and wore costly apparel.

5. Murdered Gideon for teaching the true gospel.

 I believe in everything opposite of that listed above. As for my belief regarding the 2% it is taken in light of the temporary hell and the work of redeeming the dead- a teaching the ancient BoM peoples didnt know much about. In the end only the sons of perdition wont be saved. In Nehors false teaching God saves all the sons of perdition. 

You may think 2% is a small number and thus be likened to Nehors teachings but remember that Christ's work in the atonement was to save all that the father gave him to save except for the sons of perdition. Thats exactly what Christ will do. In the D&C section 76 it even states such- 

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
            41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
            42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
            
            43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
            

So how many sons of perdition are there? Do you think my 2% is stingy or generous? Im looking at this in light of scriptures like this one from the BoM-

30 And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost.
            31 Behold, I would that ye should understand; for I mean them who are now alive of this generation; and none of them are lost; and in them I have fulness of joy (3 Nephi ch. 27:30-31)

Perhaps my 2% is too generous. Maybe it should be less such as 1% or even far greater less than that.

Doing some math here, I live in a small city of roughly 12,000 people. At 2% that would make me living amongst 240 sons of perdition in my small little town. I have a hard time believing that. That number seems way too high. If we did that same math on the population of the USA saying we have roughly 240,000,000 people, that makes nearly 5,000,000 sons of perdition and that only counts that lifespan of people not all that ever inhabited or will inhabit this country. If we account for all the population that ever came to the earth or will come we could estimate that at 2% we are talking about a few billion sons of perdition. Now, as I read the scriptures I am just not even seeing the number of sons of perdition in the billions. Im not so sure that number even gets in the millions. So, in reality, outside of those saved through the atonement its probably less than 1% of 1%

Now, of course you cant argue that Christs work is akin to Nehor. So dont do it with me either who is a follower of Christ.

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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

My interpretation and understanding of the gospel is night and day different than Nehors false teachings. We are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Lets list Nehors teachings and dealings.

1. Taught against the church.

2. Taught that priests and teachers should be popular and be paid.

3. Taught that "all" man would be saved.

4. Became supported by his followers and became prideful and wore costly apparel.

5. Murdered Gideon for teaching the true gospel.

 I believe in everything opposite of that listed above. As for my belief regarding the 2% it is taken in light of the temporary hell and the work of redeeming the dead- a teaching the ancient BoM peoples didnt know much about. In the end only the sons of perdition wont be saved. In Nehors false teaching God saves all the sons of perdition. 

You may think 2% is a small number and thus be likened to Nehors teachings but remember that Christ's work in the atonement was to save all that the father gave him to save except for the sons of perdition. Thats exactly what Christ will do. In the D&C section 76 it even states such- 

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
            41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
            42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
            
            43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
            

So how many sons of perdition are there? Do you think my 2% is stingy or generous? Im looking at this in light of scriptures like this one from the BoM-

30 And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost.
            31 Behold, I would that ye should understand; for I mean them who are now alive of this generation; and none of them are lost; and in them I have fulness of joy (3 Nephi ch. 27:30-31)

Perhaps my 2% is too generous. Maybe it should be less such as 1% or even far greater less than that.

Doing some math here, I live in a small city of roughly 12,000 people. At 2% that would make me living amongst 240 sons of perdition in my small little town. I have a hard time believing that. That number seems way too high. If we did that same math on the population of the USA saying we have roughly 240,000,000 people, that makes nearly 5,000,000 sons of perdition and that only counts that lifespan of people not all that ever inhabited or will inhabit this country. If we account for all the population that ever came to the earth or will come we could estimate that at 2% we are talking about a few billion sons of perdition. Now, as I read the scriptures I am just not even seeing the number of sons of perdition in the billions. Im not so sure that number even gets in the millions. So, in reality, outside of those saved through the atonement its probably less than 1% of 1%

Now, of course you cant argue that Christs work is akin to Nehor. So dont do it with me either who is a follower of Christ.

Did you think I said you were a Nehor? I made it quite clear that I was not saying you are a follower of Nehor. 

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10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

My interpretation and understanding of the gospel is night and day different than Nehors false teachings.

Yes, your "sound ideas" sound pretty funny.

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13 hours ago, eddified said:

I've read your ideas in other threads as well. Respectfully, I offer the following thought: I was reading the scriptures to my children, and came across this verse:

It suddenly struck me that this sounds very similar to what you are professing. Whose teaching is this in Alma 1:4? It was Nehor's. 

Also, this FairMormon link says that a "doctrine of a type of universal salvation" (one where everyone is exalted) is one main indicator of a "modern Nehor". Now, I admit this is not exactly what you are teaching (but if I quantify it, there is only a 2% difference). I'm not saying you are a Nehor. I'm only claiming that your idea sounds awfully close to what Nehor taught.

 

I am of the notion that doctrine is not nearly as important as many ascribe it to be.  I would encourage caution about condemning those like Nehor and others for their doctrine.  I take this stand because it appears to me that it is not so much the doctrine that condemns us as it is the application of doctrine in our acts – especially acts of bad attitudes and lack of love and compassion.    This it was not so much that Nehor believed in universal salvation as it was to excuse his lack of love and compassion for others. 

I also believe it is the nature of those that love darkness more than light to some degree to counterfeit light and truth – with the intent to benefit themselves and condemn others.  In general I find the propensity to justify oneself at one hand and then to condemn other for basically the same behaviors to be the great error of evil.  Jesus recommended that we recognize his followers – not by doctrine but by their actions of love and compassion towards others and not so much for themselves.  I believe many self-proclaimed Christians to be far too interested in their own glory, their own salvation and their own place in heaven, their own forgiveness and their concerns of doctrine rather than the G-d given agency to all to choose and exercise their agency for good or evil.  Keep in mind the great error of Lucifer was his desire to take away the agency of man.

 

The Traveler

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