Jesus Christ Savior of the Universe/Multiverse?


clbent04
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This is getting a little into the deep end, but I've heard from members of the LDS church that Jesus Christ was born on this Earth as a Savior not only to those on this planet, but every single planet where God has created life.  Moses 1:33-35 states

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

Did we really luck out with getting the one and only Savior who only lived on this Earth but atones for all of God's children on other planets as well?  That is not just winning a lottery, that is winning a lottery with "innumerable" odds stacked against us.  I'm not sure how in depth this topic is discussed within the LDS church, but I'd appreciate any insight

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12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

This is getting a little into the deep end, but I've heard from members of the LDS church that Jesus Christ was born on this Earth as a Savior not only to those on this planet, but every single planet where God has created life.  Moses 1:33-35 states

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

Did we really luck out with getting the one and only Savior who only lived on this Earth but atones for all of God's children on other planets as well?  That is not just winning a lottery, that is winning a lottery with "innumerable" odds stacked against us.  I'm not sure how in depth this topic is discussed within the LDS church, but I'd appreciate any insight

According to doctrine, Christ is the savior of other worlds too but it is only our planet where he was to come and attain a body and carry out the atonement. Consequently, after this earth comes to an end, so too is Christs work come to an end and he shall not go out anymore.

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

According to doctrine, Christ is the savior of other worlds too but it is only our planet where he was to come and attain a body and carry out the atonement. Consequently, after this earth comes to an end, so too is Christs work come to an end and he shall not go out anymore.

@Rob Osborn If this is true, how are other planets inhabited by God's children able to identify with an alien Savior?  The fact that I know Jesus Christ lived and walked on the same Earth I do is meaningful to me.  It makes Jesus Christ all the more personable.  I don't know if I personally would ever embrace an alien Savior

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I think we are well into the realm of speculation on this.  Such speculation may be rooted in relatively authoritative-seeming statements; but to my knowledge the Church has no official position on this and thus I would be loath to call any position "doctrinal".

Speaking hypothetically, though:  I suppose it would be analogous to the position of the ancient American believers as recounted in the Book of Mormon:  they had prophecies; they were given natural signs indicating His birth and Death; and ultimately He visited them in resurrected, glorified form.

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27 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Rob Osborn If this is true, how are other planets inhabited by God's children able to identify with an alien Savior?  The fact that I know Jesus Christ lived and walked on the same Earth I do is meaningful to me.  It makes Jesus Christ all the more personable.  I don't know if I personally would ever embrace an alien Savior

The Savior has visited those other planets in the past. They know him, he has ministered unto them, we all know each other as we are all connected brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. Our planet, because it was the one designated for Christ to recieve his body and thus for the atonement, is the most wicked of all of Gods creations. It is here where Satans capital reigns, in his final attempt to destroy Gods kibgdom and thus where the concentration of evil spirits is the greatest.

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22 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think we are well into the realm of speculation on this.  Such speculation may be rooted in relatively authoritative-seeming statements; but to my knowledge the Church has no official position on this and thus I would be loath to call any position "doctrinal".

Speaking hypothetically, though:  I suppose it would be analogous to the position of the ancient American believers as recounted in the Book of Mormon:  they had prophecies; they were given natural signs indicating His birth and Death; and ultimately He visited them in resurrected, glorified form.

Christ being the savior of other planets is actually doctrine found in official LDS teaching manuals. Here is one such-

 

"The infinite Atonement affects worlds without number and will save all of God’s children except sons of perdition (see Alma 34:9–10, 12; D&C 76:22–24, 40–43)."

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-9-the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

The Savior has visited those other planets in the past. They know him, he has ministered unto them, we all know each other as we are all connected brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. Our planet, because it was the one designated for Christ to recieve his body and thus for the atonement, is the most wicked of all of Gods creations. It is here where Satans capital reigns, in his final attempt to destroy Gods kibgdom and thus where the concentration of evil spirits is the greatest.

I guess I just have a hard time believing it's all about us (so to speak). We somehow find ourselves at the focal point of where so much of the action is happening? I question whether it's really true just based on the tendency we all have to put ourselves at the forefront of situations.  I think it would be more difficult for us to accept we were one of the alien planets to Jesus Christ's own earth where He had His mortal experience.

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"Universe" as it is used today is a concept in physics. "Multiverse" is a concept in comic books. Christ's atonement is "universal" in the sense of being "catholic". But when you start specifying other presumed "planets" and such, you are going well beyond the scope of our doctrine. Moses 1:35, 36, and 40 and Moses 2:1 suggest that the Lord tells us about our own world and no other.

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14 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I guess I just have a hard time believing it's all about us (so to speak). We somehow find ourselves at the focal point of where so much of the action is happening? I question whether it's really true just based on the tendency we all have to put ourselves at the forefront of situations.  I think it would be more difficult for us to accept we were one of the alien planets to Jesus Christ's own earth where He had His mortal experience.

Indeed we are at the focal point. The scriptures even state such. 

11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven
12 Which causeth silence to reign, and all eternity is pained, and the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth, to gather the tares that they may be burned; and, behold, the enemy is combined. (D&C 38:11-12)

D&C 88:45-61 speak of Christ visiting different planets and that our planet is the last one. It is also the place where Satan will be destroyed along with all evil.

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18 minutes ago, Vort said:

"Universe" as it is used today is a concept in physics. "Multiverse" is a concept in comic books. Christ's atonement is "universal" in the sense of being "catholic". But when you start specifying other presumed "planets" and such, you are going well beyond the scope of our doctrine. Moses 1:35, 36, and 40 and Moses 2:1 suggest that the Lord tells us about our own world and no other.

@Vort For purposes of this discussion, universe works just fine.  I'm just not leaving out the possibility that God may have dominion over other universes as well.  Do we really know what worlds without number really means?  Just because at this time we scientifically can only measure the cosmic microwave background radiation afterglow of the big bang which is limited to this universe, does not mean other universes don't exist. And since when have Mormon beliefs been limited to what is accepted by the science of men at the present moment?

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6 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Vort For purposes of this discussion, universe works just fine.  I'm just not leaving out the possibility that God may have dominion over other universes as well.  Do we really know what worlds without number really means?  Just because at this time we scientifically can only measure the cosmic microwave background radiation afterglow of the big bang which is limited to this universe, does not mean other universes don't exist. And since when have Mormon beliefs been limited to what is accepted by the science of men at the present moment?

You're missing my point. When we take the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ and start pointing to this star or that planet and identifying such celestial bodies with various aspects of the gospel, we have moved way beyond the gospel. We are treading on thin ice, or more likely, treading water. The gospel says nothing about a "universe"; that is a modern concept in physics, like "atom" or "Higgs boson" or "Gibbs free energy" or "quantum chromodynamics". Such mechanistic ideas are generally not part of the gospel.

Preaching the gospel using such terms is problematic and very often counterproductive. For example, the word "power" has a specific definition in physics: Energy per unit time. To my knowledge, there is no other valid meaning in physics for the word "power". When we say we have "Priesthood power", do we therefore mean that we have some capacity to use Priesthood energy over some unit of time? No, of course not. Gospel words mean what they mean, not what we attach to them. We gain a general idea of their meaning based on etymology and usage, but the actual meaning of gospel terms is revealed by the Spirit, and in no other way.

So talking about the gospel in terms of "the universe" (or worse yet, "the multiverse") seems to be to go well beyond what the gospel is intended to convey. The gospel tells us about this world and our place in it, and what God expects of us. It tells us pretty much nothing about any other worlds or peoples. I think it's wise to avoid useless speculation along those lines.

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3 minutes ago, Vort said:

The gospel tells us about this world and our place in it, and what God expects of us. It tells us pretty much nothing about any other worlds or peoples. I think it's wise to avoid useless speculation along those lines.

It does tell us quite a bit though about Gods other worlds he has created and that he created them through Jesus Christ.

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20 minutes ago, Vort said:

So talking about the gospel in terms of "the universe" (or worse yet, "the multiverse") seems to be to go well beyond what the gospel is intended to convey. The gospel tells us about this world and our place in it, and what God expects of us. It tells us pretty much nothing about any other worlds or peoples. I think it's wise to avoid useless speculation along those lines.

@Vort It's not speculation when it's mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price among other places

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15 hours ago, clbent04 said:

This is getting a little into the deep end, but I've heard from members of the LDS church that Jesus Christ was born on this Earth as a Savior not only to those on this planet, but every single planet where God has created life.  Moses 1:33-35 states

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

Did we really luck out with getting the one and only Savior who only lived on this Earth but atones for all of God's children on other planets as well?  That is not just winning a lottery, that is winning a lottery with "innumerable" odds stacked against us.  I'm not sure how in depth this topic is discussed within the LDS church, but I'd appreciate any insight

Christ is a personal Savior to all the children of God given the opportunity to exercise faith in Him, no matter where they are born or how many worlds His Personal mission might apply to.

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15 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Did we really luck out with getting the one and only Savior who only lived on this Earth but atones for all of God's children on other planets as well?  That is not just winning a lottery, that is winning a lottery with "innumerable" odds stacked against us.

You'll have to help me with this mentality. There had to be a Savior. He had to be born somewhere. So why not this one?

Just because there are astronomical odds against something, doesn't mean that something that must be, didn't happen.

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17 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@Vort It's not speculation when it's mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price among other places

I don't understand. What's mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price, beyond the bare fact that God has created innumerable other worlds?

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I don't understand. What's mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price, beyond the bare fact that God has created innumerable other worlds?

How do you define "many worlds" as stated in Moses? Do you know whether "many worlds" is limited to our galaxy, our universe or beyond? Was universe even a word in the dictionary at the time Joseph Smith received the relevelation? 

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4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

How do you define "many worlds" as stated in Moses?

I define "many" as meaning "more than one" and "worlds" as meaning "habitations like the Earth".

4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Do you know whether "many worlds" is limited to our galaxy, our universe or beyond?

No, nor do I much care.

5 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Was universe even a word in the dictionary at the time Joseph Smith received the relevelation?

Probably.

Given your questions above, do you begin to see why I find it problematic, if not simply nonsensical, to talk about the revealed Restored Gospel in terms of "universes" and "multiverses"?

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

I define "many" as meaning "more than one" and "worlds" as meaning "habitations like the Earth".

No, nor do I much care.

Probably.

Given your questions above, do you begin to see why I find it problematic, if not simply nonsensical, to talk about the revealed Restored Gospel in terms of "universes" and "multiverses"?

I don't know, now that I think of it maybe I could of titled this post as "Jesus Christ Savior of More Than One World". Since we don't know whether "many worlds" refers to a galaxy, universe or (hold your breath) multiverse, referring to either one of these terms seemed to suit my purpose for simply conveying Jesus is the Savior of more than one world.  Hopefully not too many people get caught up in title, but if you do let's just call it "Jesus Christ Savior of More Than One World"

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

I don't know, now that I think of it maybe I could of titled this post as "Jesus Christ Savior of More Than One World". Since we don't know whether "many worlds" refers to a galaxy, universe or (hold your breath) multiverse, referring to either one of these terms seemed to suit my purpose for simply conveying Jesus is the Savior of more than one world.  Hopefully not too many people get caught up in title, but if you do let's just call it "Jesus Christ Savior of More Than One World"

Pretty sure that's already settled doctrine.

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27 minutes ago, Vort said:

Pretty sure that's already settled doctrine.

It's settled that God created many other worlds by His Son, but is it settled as outlined in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the Savior of each and every one of these worlds?

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If we are going on opinion, I would think it would refer to our universe (multiverse is indeed part of physics as well, and not just part of a comics conundrum...but the multiverse that physics talks about is not really like the comics version.  Comics draw off the idea of infinite dimensions in that each action we do creates and alternate universe due to a dimensional quantum idea...whereas, the multiverse talked about normally is one where there are different universes [sort of like bubbles in a sink, with each bubble being it's own universe] each with it's own physical laws).

I have no idea if it would refer to the multiverse...but I'd say probably the universe we are in.  I believe it also mentions he came at the meridian of time, which implies that time itself in our perception, has a beginning and an end which is more of something we see in our physical universe, but may not be something that exists in any other universe out there as we perceive or understand it.

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