So, apparently you can find LDS neo-Nazis.

[zil]

15 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

he called me a Kennite

I would have called him a Barbie-ite in return! Ha!

[prisonchaplain]

1 minute ago, zil said:

I would have called him a Barbie-ite in return! Ha!

Not until this moment have I discovered that @zil can have a mean streak.  Woe!

[JoCa]

19 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It depends on what you say the foundational concept is.  Communism = economic equality; Naziism = unity.  Both goals are laudable in and of themselves.  But there are costs to both; and to promote their goals both governments had to make national boogeymen of whatever minorities were available.  It's just that Commies picked their victims for primarily ideological reasons; whereas the Nazis picked them mainly along ethnic lines.

Yes to a point.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/27/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604.html

Both viewpoints, Communism and National Socialism were/are two sides of the same coin-which is the elimination of basic rule of law and decency to the point where the only thing that really mattered was having power.  If you were part of the "in" group you were generally okay, but if you stepped outside of the allowable opinion you were branded as a heretic, lost your job, and most likely killed.  While race had a lot to do with Germany, and eliminating wholesale a group of people is despicable, IMO the most insidious part of those governments was the way they turned neighbors and friends against each other.

The Gestapo were only able to operate with the active cooperation of the people. The movie Alone in Berlin describes this, to speak out against the allowable opinion was a death sentence. An unallowable opinion was a death sentance

While we don't kill people here (yet) for having an unallowable opinion . . . how much better are we as a culture and a people when individuals who have committed no acts of violence are not arrested, are then "outed" on social media as having an unallowable opinion and fired for their jobs.  Not for any illegal action, not for any action that physically hurt another individual (if they did they should be in jail), but simply for holding an unallowable opinion.

Is that a route that society should go down?

[zil]

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

Not until this moment have I discovered that @zil can have a mean streak.  Woe!

Blame the hot-sauce on my home-made tostada - it's made my tongue spicy!

[prisonchaplain]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

Blame the hot-sauce on my home-made tostada - it's made my tongue spicy!

The scary part is that she smiles as she says it.  (Duck, roll and cover, opponents of @zil!)

Edited August 14, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[JoCa]

http://www.toddstarnes.com/column/culture-jihadists-rip-down-confederate-statue

We've got to enforce the rule of law in this country; you don't get to decide you're going to go on a crusade and tear down a statue.  Why aren't these people charged with a crime?  Defacement of public property.  You've got video evidence and people gladly celebrating destroying property.  Where are the cops?  Where are the arrests?

This has the potential to spiral out of hand.  When people do not feel the police will protect them equally, they will start to take matters into their own hands and that's not good.

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The closest I've encountered in the broader Christian world are those espousing Anglo-Israelism. They believe the lost tribes of Israel immigrated to areas that are now white, and so they must have been white initially. These types tend to reject modern Israelites as pretenders, and consider Semites to be non-white. The most ridiculous argument I heard was that the word "ADAM," according to the 3rd meaning in Strong's Dictionary, is "ruddy." Well, since whites are the only race that has a ruddy complexion, Adam and Eve must have been white. When I told this person I did not believe doctrine could be built on using a dictionary to translate God's word--especially digging into the weeds, by using 3rd meanings, he called me a Kennite (his version of cursing me, I believe). The fellow was in his 70s, so I felt more sad for him, then that he was dangerous.  :::sigh:::

This "ruddy" bit featured in an episode of "Touched by an Angel", I think.  But IIRC it turned out that the guy making the argument was a physical incarnation of Satan himself, in disguise.

[JoCa]

Truth is the first causality in any war.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/14/heres-how-the-virginia-state-police-provoked-violence-at-charlottesville/

Maybe the police were just really stupid and the ineptitude of the Governor of Virginia was on full display.

Or maybe evil men in positions of power do everything they can to facilitate violence.

And now they arrest one of the individuals who tore down a statute . . .while the police stood looking on during the crime. 

Great, so that means someone can rob a bank, blow up a building, kill someone and the cops will just stand by doing nothing (even if they have the means to do something about it) and arrest them later.  Whatever happened to rule of law in this country?

[JohnsonJones]

I've only read the first page, but in my area...Racism is a really BAD problem in some ways.  This isn't some foreign LDS area either, there are a LOT of LDS here, in fact they are the majority.  However, there is a HUGE Hispanic contingent of members.  There are ZERO (that's right, zero) Hispanics or even minorities in the LDS leadership, despite being in such large numbers.  The Spanish branch, that even has a WHITE Branch President.  I've talked to some Hispanic members, and some who are inactive, and they notice this.  They even state there are difficulties with their kids associating with the other LDS kids.

I have to say, I am ignorant of some of this though, and cannot relate...though I see and hear what they are saying.  I've only had two experiences where I saw it directly.  The first was where a certain individual in leadership invited the LDS leadership of the areas to go to a meeting.  Once there it was obvious it was to try to garner membership from that leadership into a White supremacy type organization.  There were several that were already in that organization.

The other was at a thrift store.  There were some Hispanics there talking in Spanish.  One I knew, who was a military veteran of several years, had been wounded and was medically retired.  One individual came up to them and told them to speak English.  They were in America and if they didn't want to speak English and sacrifice for the nation that he loved, they should get out.  Now, as I said, one of these was a military veteran who was speaking Spanish.  I was embarrassed.  I took the elderly gentleman aside, away from them as it was starting to look nasty, and instead talked to him about his mission.  However, though I didn't bring it up to him (and maybe I should) I was rather shocked at how he treated that guy.  I did mention that one of the individuals that he had talked to was a military veteran who, as some might put it, had fought and bled (but luckily not died) for the freedoms he enjoyed, including the speech he had just given them.

So, yes, there are those who are white supremacist in the LDS church.  Beyond that though, there is racism in the LDS church membership.  I think most don't even recognize it or realize that the racism is there.  It is something we can fight.  We could almost double our ward rolls for actives if we could just fellowship the Hispanic members in our ward.  Right now, I have about a very low percentage of them coming out.  If I understood this better, maybe I could help them better.  Unfortunately, perhaps what is required is someone far more capable than me of understanding the situation and how to help others engage with it and resolve it.

[JoCa]

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Racism is a really BAD problem in some ways.  This isn't some foreign LDS area either, there are a LOT of LDS here, in fact they are the majority.  However, there is a HUGE Hispanic contingent of members.  There are ZERO (that's right, zero) Hispanics or even minorities in the LDS leadership, despite being in such large numbers.  The Spanish branch, that even has a WHITE Branch President.  I've talked to some Hispanic members, and some who are inactive, and they notice this.  They even state there are difficulties with their kids associating with the other LDS kids.

I think you really ought to look at what you wrote. I'll flip it for you to help out.

"The English branch, that even has a BLACK branch President.  I've talked to some English members, and some who are inactive and they notice this.  They even state there are difficulties with their [white] kids associating with other [black] LDS kids"

Now, how bad does that sound?  Racist much?  If skin color truly doesn't matter, they what difference does it make if the branch president is black, white, Asian, pink, etc.  If he is a man called of God, does his skin color really matter?

The hypocrisy is there. 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by JoCa

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, JoCa said:

I think you really ought to look at what you wrote. I'll flip it for you to help out.

"The English branch, that even has a BLACK branch President.  I've talked to some English members, and some who are inactive and they notice this.  They even state there are difficulties with their [white] kids associating with other [black] LDS kids"

Now, how bad does that sound?  Racist much?  If skin color truly doesn't matter, they what difference does it make if the branch president is black, white, Asian, pink, etc.  If he is a man called of God, does his skin color really matter?

The hypocrisy is there. 

 

Okay, there is a LARGE Hispanic population which are related to the Lamanites who originally inhabited the Americas.  They have skin tones which are NOT lily white as many who consider themselves white.  I am aware there are whites who are also Hispanic, but we see those very rarely in our area.

And yes, in this instance, his skin color DOES matter.  Unless one is so racist they believe ONLY WHITE men of European descent are ever chosen by the Lord or that ONLY those who have white skins in this life will be saved in heaven.  When one ONLY chooses those of a white European background as leadership or things in that manner, it indicates that is the thinking and seems to really offend many who are not.

Skin color shouldn't matter, you a right, but when it is obvious it does and is part of the selection process for leaders and other matters, then it starts to matter a LOT...for one...because it IS extremely racist.

And when skin color matters SO much that instead of selecting one of the temple recommend bearing Elders (because they can't be bothered to make any High Priests) the Branch President and instead bring someone from OUTSIDE a branch who was in another ward to be the Branch President because of what appears to be skin color...yeah...that speaks highly of a problem from what I understand.

So, yes, when there is racism against the minorities, then Skin color actually DOES matter, because racism forces it upon everyone so that it becomes a deciding factor in most decisions...and when it becomes as blatantly obvious...then it matters even more.

For me, just to start with, questions like...why should they attend a church that hates them, or doesn't want them there, are things that one has to start answering or dancing around the question.  It's a dang hard question, and anyone who thinks they (they Hispanic members) are being racist instead needs to analyze what the heck they are thinking, because I can tell you from how they've treated me, they aren't the ones that are racist.

AS for me...perhaps involuntarily...but at least I recognize it and try to change how I think and act and try to understand where they are coming from.  As I noted previously though, perhaps I am inadequate, and the right choice would be to choose someone who understood them far better than I and could be far more effective at bringing them back into activity within the church.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

And yes, in this instance, his skin color DOES matter.  Unless one is so racist they believe ONLY WHITE men of European descent are ever chosen by the Lord or that ONLY those who are lily white will be saved in heaven.  When one ONLY chooses those of a white European background as leadership or things in that manner, it indicates that is the thinking and seems to really offend many who are not.

Skin color shouldn't matter, you a right, but when it is obvious it does and is part of the selection process for leaders and other matters, then it starts to matter a LOT...for one...because it IS extremely racist.

Does skin color matter so much that you must demand a Hispanic man be called to lead?  If race doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter.  Complaining about a skin color matching the population is just as racist as complaining about a skin color NOT matching the population.

[JoCa]

48 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

So, yes, when there is racism against the minorities, then Skin color actually DOES matter

 

But when it's against the majority (i.e. whites), then skin color doesn't matter.  Gotcha, just wanted to make sure we are on the same page.

And some people wonder why the alt-right is a thing . . ..

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, JoCa said:

But when it's against the majority (i.e. whites), then skin color doesn't matter.  Gotcha, just wanted to make sure we are on the same page.

And some people wonder why the alt-right is a thing . . ..

It can matter, but NOT in the instances you are talking about.

However, that said, I think we may be on the same page though, as far as understanding out varied political views that don't conjoin with each other.

[JoCa]

45 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Does skin color matter so much that you must demand a Hispanic man be called to lead?  If race doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter.  Complaining about a skin color matching the population is just as racist as complaining about a skin color NOT matching the population.

And it is precisely this reason why in general countries throughout history have maintained a cohesive ethnicity.  It's great platitudes to say we in the modern society are so much better than our ancestors b/c we abhor racism.  But when you get down to it, for whatever reason a large swath of individuals from any one particular ethnicity (not everyone but a significant portion of individuals) actively make a choice to self-segregate and to live among individuals that share a common background. No one group is better than the other; we are all children of God and should all respect and love each other.  Just people like to live, associate, work with others who share similar backgrounds.

Business companies have certain cultures, if everyone in the company wears white shirts and ties and you were flip-flops every day you are going to have a problem. 

The hope and ideal of America is that each ethnicity can have the basis of shared beliefs in the Constitution the Bill of Rights, etc. and those things can form the basis of a shared culture. Unfortunately, though that idea has devolved through identity politics.

What's really interesting is how much the scare of racism divides this country, yet the vast majority of countries in the world, the vast majority of the population in the world, says something like yeah racism so what.  How many times was I told "yankee go home" in South America-simply b/c I didn't look like them....too numerous to count.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by JoCa

[Bill (Papa) Lee]

On August 12, 2017 at 11:32 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Has anyone ever seen one, or met one?  I just learned about their existence today from BYU Professor Dan Peterson:

Beyond repulsive. FAR beyond.

Yeah, no.  I think if I ever were to meet one, I might not be civil.  I might be downright uncharitable.

I have known a couple, and finding out cost them my friendship. I doubt they saw that as a great loss, but I felt the loss of men I once called friends. I pray they have repented, I truly do. 

[JoCa]

2 minutes ago, Bill (Papa) Lee said:

I have known a couple, and finding out cost them my friendship. I doubt they saw that as a great loss, but I felt the loss of men I once called friends. I pray they have repented, I truly do. 

? I'm curious.  Did you find their beliefs offensive and then decide to cut off friendship, or did they cut off friendship with you b/c you didn't agree with them?

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Bill (Papa) Lee said:

I have known a couple, and finding out cost them my friendship.

For what little it's worth, I'd do the same thing, for sure. Gotta draw the line. 

[JoCa]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

For what little it's worth, I'd do the same thing, for sure. Gotta draw the line. 

But if someone is for abortion you'd still be friends with them?  I'm just curious where the line is that leads one to cut off friendship over a different belief?

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, JoCa said:

But if someone is for abortion you'd still be friends with them?  

Oh yes. I would immediately stop talking to anyone who is pro-choice or supports gay marriage too. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by MormonGator

[JoCa]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Oh yes. I would immediately stop talking to anyone who is pro-choice or supports gay marriage. 

Stop talking as in not discuss the topic but still discuss other things or stop talking altogether forever. Just curious at where exists the line of deciding when to talk to another individual or not, i.e. become a friend.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, JoCa said:

Stop talking as in not discuss the topic but still discuss other things or stop talking altogether forever. Just curious at where exists the line of deciding when to talk to another individual or not, i.e. become a friend.

I would immediately end a friendship with anyone who is pro-choice or pro gay marriage. I would never speak to them again. Period. 

[JoCa]

Just now, MormonGator said:

I would immediately end a friendship with anyone who is pro-choice or pro gay marriage. I would never speak to them again. Period. 

Awesome.  I do the same thing with anyone who is a Florida Gator . . .can't have those Gators around, mortal enemies :-).

[Guest]

13 hours ago, JoCa said:

Awesome.  I do the same thing with anyone who is a Florida Gator . . .can't have those Gators around, mortal enemies :-).

Now you're getting it.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Bill (Papa) Lee said:

I have known a couple, and finding out cost them my friendship. I doubt they saw that as a great loss, but I felt the loss of men I once called friends. I pray they have repented, I truly do. 

I don't have that problem. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Guest