New and Need Some Help

[Andon Jones]

My name I Andon, I am 20 soon to be 21 and I have been loosing weight to go on my mission. This is mainly a post so I can get a little advice I am very lost right now...

So right out of high school I had all my papers ready got all the doctor stuff done, met with my bishop and stake pres, all was good then got pulled aside my my bishop and he told me I had to lose a lot of weight before I could go. I was hurt sure, but that night my Dad and I signed me up for a gym. I have been working out for a year now and have lost 85lbs of fat. I needed to loose 50, BUT here is my problem the way things have been going for me is all the fat pounds I loose I gain in muscle their for my BMI (Body Mass Index) stays the same and this is the exact situation where the BMI is flawed in my opinion. But that's what the missionary board goes off of.

So I have no idea what to do now, all my friends are gone on their adventure of the Lord and unless I grow 6'' taller I can't go. I don't want to do anything other than a FULL mission. I REALLY want to share the gospel for real ya know? I want to serve SO bad, I have worked so hard, everything has fought me the whole way and I just can't take it any more! I know the gospel is true I have read the BOM, PMG, gone to mission prep, loved seminary, but despite all of my work I am still not wanted. (sorry if that seams mellow dramatic but it's how it all looks to me right now)

I talked to my stake pres, and he went to the missionary board but they just said I can't go until I hit that overall weight number...

The way I see it right now I can stop all this and go with my plans I had after I got off my mission, and my family will hate me for it and I will always have to tell the story of why I didn't go on a mission for the rest of my life.

Or keep doing this for HOW long?

When I first stared this I was full of faith and confidence, but to be honest with you now I have never felt worse about my self than I do now.

 

 

 

[SilentOne]

What exactly have you been doing at the gym? Maybe a change in routine there could decrease your muscle-building.

[zil]

As @SilentOne suggested - change the exercise routine from one that builds muscle to one that does cardio and weight loss.  You may need to change your diet to one with fewer calories, more fruit and veggies, and whatnot.  I have yet to hear of any other way (short of the drastic and stupid) for otherwise healthy people to drop pounds.  (I hear you on the whole "BMI doesn't work", but in this case, the best choice is to humble yourself and work within the guidelines established.)

Prayers & best wishes!  And welcome to the forums, @Andon Jones!

[Grunt]

I could probably help you out with this.  How much do you have to lose before you can go?  Are they judging you by BMI or height and weight?  Body fat %?  What is the reason behind making you lose weight?  Health?  Looks?

[Vort]

I encourage you to be honest with yourself. Exceptionally honest. Even brutally honest.

Have you really put on FIFTY EXTRA POUNDS OF MUSCLE?

If so, that's awesome. It will also be clearly visible, even through a lot of fat. No one puts on that kind of muscle without it being obvious.

I don't know you, I don't know your situation, all I know is what you've written. But my guess is that, while you have come a long way and are to be congratulated, you still have a ways to go. Be super-honest with yourself, and ask: Are you REALLY fifty pounds overweight because you've put on so much muscle? Or are you still fifty pounds overweight because, despite the notable progress you've made up until now, you simply aren't there yet?

My guess is that it's the latter. And for your sake, I hope so, because the solution is straightforward: Keep losing weight. Maybe not easy, but there's no trickery or magic involved. Just lose the weight, and you're golden.

I expect you already know far more than I do about weight loss, but here is a tidbit I have learned just in case it helps: If you want to get strong, exercise more. If you want to lose weight, eat less. If you are consistently putting 3500 calories a day into your body, you will not lose much weight. Even if you walk all day long, you are unlikely to "burn off" that many calories.

Put it this way: How does your body "lose weight"? Where does the "lost" weight go? How does it actually exit your body? Do you pee it out? Do you poop it out? No to both, for the most part. You breathe it out. Weight loss takes place because you metabolize the fat and exhale the carbon dioxide created from that metabolism. How long do you suppose it will take you to exhale the carbon dioxide created from 3500 calories worth of carbs and fat that you eat?

Good luck. Watch your diet, keep working at it, and you can accomplish what you set out to do.

[NightSG]

If you really gained 50 pounds of muscle mass in well under 3 years, without burning 3-6 times that much fat, God put you here for the medical and fitness communities to study in a lab. Stop trying to thwart His will. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by NightSG

[SpiritDragon]

31 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I could probably help you out with this.  How much do you have to lose before you can go?  Are they judging you by BMI or height and weight?  Body fat %?  What is the reason behind making you lose weight?  Health?  Looks?

My understanding is that it is based on needing a BMI less than 37, but I haven't been able to verify that from an official source. 

If this metric is correct the weight goal is certainly not unreasonable. Although it is absolutely true that BMI discriminates against the more muscular. I've known people who are overweight and even nearly obese by BMI standards while maintaining single digit body fat percentages, but I've never personally met anyone terribly lean with a BMI higher than 30-32 (granted I don't test everyone I meet for BMI and body fat percentage). I thought it might be of interest to compare these elite body builders height and weight against the BMI chart. Some of the heaviest ones do appear to have BMI levels of around 37 for competition and 40 in the off-season, while many of them barely sneak over 37 even in the off-season. Keep in mind these physiques are forged not only by hard work in the gym, but are the pharmaceutically enhanced musculature of the already genetically gifted toward carrying large muscle mass. So it is apparently possible to sport a BMI of 37 and still be quite lean, but it's not likely to be the case.

If you do happen to look like an elite bodybuilder @Andon Jones it shouldn't take long to drop down because muscle requires a lot of energy to be maintained. More walking and less weight-lifting and food should turn things around. If you don't look like a body builder, don't fret - the solution is similar, except you can still very likely use weight-lifting as part of your exercise routine because a little extra muscle mass isn't going to hurt in the long run. If you can't stand traditional cardio you might try peripheral heart action training which involves alternating upper body and lower body compound exercises with limited rest periods. Aim to use a load that you can perform 15 times but no more for each exercise and a short rest period no longer than 90 seconds between exercises. If you're interested I'd be happy to go into more detail. It sounds like @Grunt is also happy to help as are many others I'm sure.

[NeuroTypical]

A guy in my ward just finished losing 50 lbs and left on his mission.  It can absolutely happen.

Have you seen a nutritionist, or even a good personal trainer with a degree in sports science?  They'd be much more helpful to you than we can be...

[NightSG]

40 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

My understanding is that it is based on needing a BMI less than 37, but I haven't been able to verify that from an official source. 

37?  That would mean I could gain another 50 pounds and still qualify, and I already need to drop 15-20.  (And according to that chart, I'd need to lose 30-60 just to be "normal weight."  That would definitely require losing muscle mass.)

40 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I thought it might be of interest to compare these elite body builders height and weight against the BMI chart. Some of the heaviest ones do appear to have BMI levels of around 37 for competition and 40 in the off-season, while many of them barely sneak over 37 even in the off-season.

I can point you to a gas station attendant who hovers around 44 BMI, but when we worked together, the insurance would pay for an immersion test every year to keep from listing him as morbidly obese: he never tested over 15%.  He also doesn't go to a gym or follow any sort of regular fitness program; just likes to play with heavy stuff, and happens to be built like a 5'6" fire hydrant.

I seriously doubt the Church would take a known-faulty metric like BMI over a doctor's (or multiple doctors') professional opinion that a person is at a healthy weight, so I really have trouble believing they wouldn't simply refer a potential missionary with a high BMI to a trusted medical professional unless the problem was obvious and unmistakable.

Quote

If you do happen to look like an elite bodybuilder @Andon Jones it shouldn't take long to drop down because muscle requires a lot of energy to be maintained. 

If the OP looks anything like a pro bodybuilder, even gaining 10 pounds of muscle mass per year would be a near miraculous achievement.  Think about the plateau most of us hit after losing 10-20 pounds,  or gaining a bit of definition in a muscle group, and imagine how it is for a pro who's that near the limit of what their body can sustain.

Edited September 14, 2017 by NightSG

[SpiritDragon]

2 minutes ago, NightSG said:

37?  That would mean I could gain another 50 pounds and still qualify, and I already need to drop 15-20.  (And according to that chart, I'd need to lose 30-60 just to be "normal weight."  That would definitely require losing muscle mass.)

Like I said, it's not an unreasonable expectation.

3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

I can point you to a gas station attendant who hovers around 44 BMI, but when we worked together, the insurance would pay for an immersion test every year to keep from listing him as morbidly obese: he never tested over 15%.  He also doesn't go to a gym or follow any sort of regular fitness program; just likes to play with heavy stuff, and happens to be built like a 5'6" fire hydrant.

I seriously doubt the Church would take a known-faulty metric like BMI over a doctor's (or multiple doctors') professional opinion that a person is at a healthy weight, so I really have trouble believing they wouldn't simply refer a potential missionary with a high BMI to a trusted medical professional unless the problem was obvious and unmistakable.

I believe individuals like this do exist, and I also believe they are not very common. Furthermore, even when dealing with excess muscular weight, the weight can still come off... a certain amount of muscle is perfectly healthy, but even muscle-weight can get to a point of excess where it isn't healthy. The heart and other organs still need to work harder due to the extra mass, the joints still have to support it and so on. The same principles of fat-loss can be applied to muscle-loss, it just isn't normally what people concern themselves with.

[NightSG]

20 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I believe individuals like this do exist, and I also believe they are not very common.

More common than one might think, but less common than some might choose to believe.  Way too many people use the "I'm just built this way" excuse to avoid dropping some excess weight.  

Furthermore, even when dealing with excess muscular weight, the weight can still come off... a certain amount of muscle is perfectly healthy, but even muscle-weight can get to a point of excess where it isn't healthy. The heart and other organs still need to work harder due to the extra mass, the joints still have to support it and so on. The same principles of fat-loss can be applied to muscle-loss, it just isn't normally what people concern themselves with.

The people who could actually benefit from losing muscle mass are so few and far between that it would be hard to study in any meaningful way.  Even pro bodybuilders generally tend to retire young and settle back to a more normal "athletic" build within a year or two of cutting back their routine.

[Ironhold]

The BMI is garbage. Period. 

It was meant to be a quick means of assessing groups, not individuals. As such, it presumes that the average human being will fall within a set range of physical parameters. Folks who are naturally husky (like me) and naturally slender will have inaccurate BMI readings no matter what they do. 

As far as muscle mass goes, a good trainer should be working with you to ensure that you're developing it properly. You should only fear getting muscle-bound if you're building for looks or building to pump up; if you're simply exercising to lose weight or gain strength, a good trainer will keep you going. 

I actually did weight training back in college, so this is all personal experience for me. 

[JohnsonJones]

There IS another path, if you want to try it.  BMI by weight and height is just one method.  IF YOU CAN PROVE you actually have a VERY LOW FAT content to muscle, and submit it verified by a doctor, they may give you a go.

This can be done in some rather special machinery made for this specifically (I think they used to do it with water, but the new method is far more accurate) and can accurately figure out how much fat vs. muscle is really there.  If you truly are really muscular...than this will show it. 

However, if it is not all muscle and is merely fat...well...it will show that as well.

I know how gaining muscle mass can go when losing weight.  When I lost weight, I actually did not lose weight for around 6 months.  I was also gaining a lot of muscle, but eventually, as things balanced out, my weight went down pretty rapidly as I lost even more fat, even if I still had muscle building.

[Andon Jones]

So I have been changing my routine up around once every few months to keep sanity.

my routine is this.

Mornings I ride my bike for as long as I can 2-ish hours

work at a ranch till it gets too hot to work out side 1pm around there

then honestly take a small nap... (most the time)

go pick-up my Dad from work then he and I go to the gym for 1.5 hours and go home.

Sleep repeat.

I have gained as much muscle as I lost idk why that's so far fetched  but it's true. every week I get on a special scale at a local supplement shop that measures body fat% muscle %, even how much each limb weighs so I know what is happening, and what to focus on.

 

[Grunt]

12 minutes ago, Andon Jones said:

So I have been changing my routine up around once every few months to keep sanity.

my routine is this.

Mornings I ride my bike for as long as I can 2-ish hours

work at a ranch till it gets too hot to work out side 1pm around there

then honestly take a small nap... (most the time)

go pick-up my Dad from work then he and I go to the gym for 1.5 hours and go home.

Sleep repeat.

I have gained as much muscle as I lost idk why that's so far fetched  but it's true. every week I get on a special scale at a local supplement shop that measures body fat% muscle %, even how much each limb weighs so I know what is happening, and what to focus on.

 

First, ditch the supplement shop and their magic scale.  What do you do at the gym?

[Andon Jones]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

First, ditch the supplement shop and their magic scale.  What do you do at the gym?

Why should I stop using the scale?

I was told by the owner of the shop that because I was loosing muscle to lift more weights and to cut back on carido, so the gym in for weights and my bike is the cardio portion.

if you are looking for specifics, I stretch , free weights (depends what muscles group i'm working on that day)- or when doing legs I squat, then calfs, then lateral pulls, leg curls, squeezes, then abs, forearms, and finish with a cool down of cardio.

you burn a lot of calories when lifting is what I was told.

[Grunt]

59 minutes ago, Andon Jones said:

Why should I stop using the scale?

I was told by the owner of the shop that because I was loosing muscle to lift more weights and to cut back on carido, so the gym in for weights and my bike is the cardio portion.

if you are looking for specifics, I stretch , free weights (depends what muscles group i'm working on that day)- or when doing legs I squat, then calfs, then lateral pulls, leg curls, squeezes, then abs, forearms, and finish with a cool down of cardio.

you burn a lot of calories when lifting is what I was told.

Because the scale is inaccurate.  It's crap.  

You need to pay attention to your goals.  Every goal has a different exercise regimen associated with it.  There is a difference between burning energy aerobically and anaerobically.  They are typically different muscle groups, too.  You're trying to reach a specific weight in a short period of time.  That involves extended exercise in the aerobic zone.  Even bike riding, if your heart rate is elevated, is anaerobic.  You will lose weight and improve performance in anaerobic exercise and it IS very important, but it is the slow path to your goal and if you're packing on muscle you may never reach your goal.

Read Phil Maffetone's "Training for Endurance".  It's not for weight loss, but in my humble opinion, it is one of the best methods FOR weight loss.  Long, slow runs in your aerobic zone, frequent small meals, good proteins.  I can get more specific if need be.

[Vort]

My friend, you need to understand a few things:

• Supplement store owners are not trained physicians. Neither are personal trainers. These people are unlikely to understand or be able to tell you anything reliable about biochemistry. You have no more chance of getting good information from them on such a subject than from a group like us -- and frankly, probably less.
• Building muscle is good. But you have not put on 50 pounds of muscle. I would bet my house that's false.
• Your task is to lose weight -- specifically, lose fat. Exercise helps in this, but ultimately it's about calories burned vs. calories consumed.

The bottom line is this: Eat less.

That is the only way you will lose weight. Count calories and/or watch portions or whatever else it takes. Stop eating so much, stop eating so often, and stop eating calorie-rich foods. Cut down on your food intake, and the weight will come off, guaranteed.

[SpiritDragon]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

My friend, you need to understand a few things:

• Supplement store owners are not trained physicians. Neither are personal trainers. These people are unlikely to understand or be able to tell you anything reliable about biochemistry. You have no more chance of getting good information from them on such a subject than from a group like us -- and frankly, probably less.
• Building muscle is good. But you have not put on 50 pounds of muscle. I would bet my house that's false.
• Your task is to lose weight -- specifically, lose fat. Exercise helps in this, but ultimately it's about calories burned vs. calories consumed.

The bottom line is this: Eat less.

That is the only way you will lose weight. Count calories and/or watch portions or whatever else it takes. Stop eating so much, stop eating so often, and stop eating calorie-rich foods. Cut down on your food intake, and the weight will come off, guaranteed.

I agree with the general theme of your statement, but have to just mention that qualified personal trainers do exist who have taken reasonable amounts of time in coursework to extensive amounts of time in coursework learning about exercise physiology and are likely to be more well versed on what is taking place in the human body as a result of exercise than most physicians. They have also likely taken more training on helping people with behaviour change than most physicians, not to mention Doctors are notoriously poorly trained in the field of nutrition. Of course this is not meant to take away from the very wonderful service that doctors offer in diagnostic capabilities and surgical intervention, but when it comes to body transformation (non-surgical) personal trainers and nutritionists are the most qualified professionals to help. Just, when seeking them out be sure to ask what kind of training they have. A fly-by-night weekend certified online personal trainer will not have the same understanding as one who has gone through a reputable college or university diploma or degree. Same with nutritionists, look for someone who actually has a reputable education and not some weekend course that allows them to use an unregulated title like nutrition coach, or nutritional health practitioner. @NeuroTypical nailed it with his recommendation to check in with such professionals.

Yes, the bro at the supplement shop is not likely to know much of what he is talking about. Ultimately, he is just a sales person - his job isn't to help people, it's to sell product.

Edited September 14, 2017 by SpiritDragon

[Andon Jones]

The hardest part about all this weight loss and fitness stuff is everyone says there right and everyone else says the other person is wrong...

I don't know who to talk to for help, I obviously am not doing a good job alone. Any ideas how I can find the educated fitness gurus?

There is a fella at the gym I go to who is hired as a trainer, is that like who ya'll are talking about? Or is he too just tying to get something?

An older buddy of mine at the gym was telling me he has and is going to school for this stuff so I will start there I think.

If not, what about a physical therapist would he/she know anything to help me?

Also not trying to beat a dead horse here, but why would the $10,000 scale which he lets us use for free, be a ploy and not a tool?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Andon Jones

[SilentOne]

Not really answering your most recent questions, but earlier you said the scale owner said to increase muscle-building activities and decrease cardio because you were losing muscle. If your goal is to lose weight, and you have not been able to because you've gained so much muscle, losing that muscle might not be a bad thing for you.

[SpiritDragon]

@Andon Jones you can start by asking the local trainer about his credentials. Where did he study? Is he currently certified? What certification body? These are normal questions to get asked as a trainer because the field is unregulated and people want to know that they are paying for the help of someone who actually knows what they're doing. A Physical Therapist will be well trained in the areas of rehabilitating from injuries and even then different ones will have different specialties such as working with patients recovering from heart attacks or motor vehicle accidents or sports injuries and so on. They know a lot about how the body works, but aren't generally experts on weight loss. 

Decent certifications to look for include:

ACE

NASM

NSCA

ACSM

Those are the better ones I'm familiar with to look for in the states (are you in the states? I'm a Canadian) 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

9 minutes ago, Andon Jones said:

The hardest part about all this weight loss and fitness stuff is everyone says there right and everyone else says the other person is wrong...

So true!  There is a lot of misinformation out there.  You are not alone the US (and many other developed countries) are facing an obesity epidemic.  Study it out, pray about it, get a blessing.  And for your prayerful consideration....I have lost 65 lbs by adopting a Whole Food Plant Based Diet.  Here is an intro:

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/eating-more-to-weigh-less/

[SpiritDragon]

6 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

So true!  There is a lot of misinformation out there.  You are not alone the US (and many other developed countries) are facing an obesity epidemic.  Study it out, pray about it, get a blessing.  And for your prayerful consideration....I have lost 65 lbs by adopting a Whole Food Plant Based Diet.  Here is an intro:

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/eating-more-to-weigh-less/

This is the healthiest and most effective long-term solution to weight management. Congratulations on your success LP!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

9 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

This is the healthiest and most effective long-term solution to weight management. Congratulations on your success LP!

Thanks!