Fair Mormon: another source for answers to questions about lds faith

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Yes, but that was long after I stopped listening to him.  When I listened, he was still trying to rebuild his faith (or that's what he said.)  

It really depends on what you mean by "Leftist".   My views would be considered Leftist to many here, and I am fine I assure you.  Remember that Elder Oaks said there are some judgments we have to make (like who is safe to watch our children) but there are other judgments we are commanded not to make and speculating about one's eternal reward (or lack there of) is a big one.  You can pray for me if it makes you feel better, LOL! 

You aren't a leftist. You are a liberal. HUGE difference. You only seem "leftist" to someone who is skewed so far to the right that they are in the breakdown lane.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Thanks! It is a great day actually. Looking forward to getting this month over with and for a new one to start. My Gators FINALLY open their season on Saturday against Michigan. We've had what seems like half of our team suspended! Yikes!  

And my response to you was dead on. You seem to want FAIR Mormon to follow your rules. 

FAIR needs to follow their own rules. If I was grading them on correctly defending the churches actual official positions and doctrines I would give them a "C". In a lot of areas they do a great job worthy of an "A", but in other areas such as science and geography they get a "F". I have never understood why a place that supposes to defend a doctrine, and has the import in scholarly resources to do so, cant get it right. Put your biases aside and defend the doctrine, its that simple. But if you want to throw in your own personal bias then dont claim to defend another party honestly. Thats a dis service, not a help.

[anatess2]

25 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

It really depends on what you mean by "Leftist".   My views would be considered Leftist to many here, and I am fine I assure you.  

Oy!  Nooo!  Your views (as far as I understand it) are not leftist!  Ok, not sure if you know much about Antifa - they're leftists.  They're not liberal (or if they think they are then they've gotten so manipulated as to not realize that they're actually hurting the liberal cause).  Leftists don't believe America is broken from its founding.  Leftists believe America is wrong at its founding.  Do you see the difference?  Leftists, therefore, are the opposite of patriots.  They seek a fundamental upheaval of the USA.  Liberals and Conservatives might be on the left and right of the political spectrum, but both factions simply have a disagreement on the method by which to achieve the founding ideals of the USA.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

You aren't a leftist. You are a liberal. HUGE difference. You only seem "leftist" to someone who is skewed so far to the right that they are in the breakdown lane.

 

32 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Oy!  Nooo!  Your views (as far as I understand it) are not leftist!  Ok, not sure if you know much about Antifa - they're leftists.  They're not liberal (or if they think they are then they've gotten so manipulated as to not realize that they're actually hurting the liberal cause).  Leftists don't believe America is broken from its founding.  Leftists believe America is wrong at its founding.  Do you see the difference?  Leftists, therefore, are the opposite of patriots.  They seek a fundamental upheaval of the USA.  Liberals and Conservatives might be on the left and right of the political spectrum, but both factions simply have a disagreement on the method by which to achieve the founding ideals of the USA.

Okay, you are both right, thank you!  I was just confused about what people mean when they say "Leftist".  I admire the Founding Fathers and I'm grateful for the foundation they set for us.  

 

Quote

Liberals and Conservatives might be on the left and right of the political spectrum, but both factions simply have a disagreement on the method by which to achieve the founding ideals of the USA.

Yes!  Thank you, that's what I always say.  I do lean Liberal, for sure, but I'm still pretty moderate.  Thanks again @MormonGator and @anatess2.

[Snigmorder]

49 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Yes, but that was long after I stopped listening to him.  When I listened, he was still trying to rebuild his faith (or that's what he said.)  

It really depends on what you mean by "Leftist".   My views would be considered Leftist to many here, and I am fine I assure you.  Remember that Elder Oaks said there are some judgments we have to make (like who is safe to watch our children) but there are other judgments we are commanded not to make and speculating about one's eternal reward (or lack there of) is a big one.  You can pray for me if it makes you feel better, LOL! 

Have you ever read the family proclamation to the world and reflected upon how contrarian it is to the American left's social philosophies? The American left, in nearly every facet, goes contrary to the laws given to man from heaven. 

The American left is so obviously influenced directly by the adversarial force.

Here's a quick cheat sheet.

1# If you believe sex and gender are different, you are contrary to God.

2# If you downplay or oppose the heterosexual family unit, you are contrary to God.

3# If you believe there are more than two genders, you are contrary to God.

4# If you reject the divinely ordained and facilitated differences between men and women, you are contrary to God.

5# The uncreated truth of the universe is that the highest calling for a man and a woman is to be mothers and fathers in a family. If you oppose or reject this, you are contrary to God.

There are many other leftist oppositions to truth, but these are probably the most egregious.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Just now, Snigmorder said:

Have you ever read the family proclamation to the world and reflected upon how contrarian it is to the American left's social philosophies? The American left, in nearly every facet, goes contrary to the laws given to man from heaven. 

The American left is so obviously influenced directly by the adversarial force.

it's okay MormonGator and Anatess already helped me understand better.   

I agree with you that these things are wrong, but all the more reason to pray for these people. I like to think it is their thinking that is wrong not their hearts, so there is hope to change their thinking.  Of course, only Heavenly Father knows for sure, until then I'll be praying for them.  

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 

Okay, you are both right, thank you!  I was just confused about what people mean when they say "Leftist".  I admire the Founding Fathers and I'm grateful for the foundation they set for us.  

 

Yes!  Thank you, that's what I always say.  I do lean Liberal, for sure, but I'm still pretty moderate.  Thanks again @MormonGator and @anatess2.

To me politics is like a pendulum. Every issue makes you lean a little to the left or the right. I'm pro-gay marriage and moderately pro choice. So I lean slightly to the left. 
BUT
I think gun control is an abomination, think taxes are way too high, and that government run health care is insane and dangerous. So I lean slightly to the right. 

Someone on the far left would view me as a right wing maniac, while someone on the far right would view me as a naive, idealistic leftist. It shows much more on the person making the accusation than your own views. 
 

[Guest]

I guess I am center-right.  To be honest I am simply not a very political person in real life (it drives some of my friends crazy on both the left and the right), but I will always take the Church's side when the Church takes an explicit stance on something.

I am probably a hundred times more political on this forum than I am in person!

Edited September 1, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest]

By the way I think apologetics are great!  I love fairlds, and jefflindsay.com even more.  I think apologetics exist as an additional way for the Lord to help us strengthen our testimonies.

Maybe someday in the future, when my children are all raised and my money has been made, I will start my own apologetics site!  I really do love this stuff.

Edited September 1, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest]

On 8/30/2017 at 11:24 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Then you havent read the material at FAIR

So, what did they say? Reference the article. Highlight specific sentences, phrases, or claims.

When we take a position, it is understood that the one making the point is responsible for presenting the references. Refusing to do so usually indicates a weaker position.

It simply isn't a discussion if you just make a statement and take the position: "Well, if you can't see it, then you're just a bunch of uninformed idiots."

Edited September 1, 2017 by Guest

[Happy Hiker]

Fair had some pretty good videos.  Dan Peterson is my favorite speaker.  If you watch "The Protean Joseph Smith" it is really good.  I have always thought the lack of consensus among critics makes Joseph's claims seem more likely to be true.  It's like the Book of Mormon is so weird or enigmatic that no one can figure it out.  

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

9 hours ago, MormonGator said:

To me politics is like a pendulum. Every issue makes you lean a little to the left or the right. I'm pro-gay marriage and moderately pro choice. So I lean slightly to the left. 
BUT
I think gun control is an abomination, think taxes are way too high, and that government run health care is insane and dangerous. So I lean slightly to the right. 

Someone on the far left would view me as a right wing maniac, while someone on the far right would view me as a naive, idealistic leftist. It shows much more on the person making the accusation than your own views. 
 

Good point.  I feel the same...maybe we are pretzels.   You know from all that twisting back and forth.  I have views drive my Right wing family and friends crazy, and views that my Liberal friends think are nutz.  In that way I'm equal opportunity for offending someone!  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Speaking of FAIR, here is my favorite video...Claudia Bushman talking about women in the church.  (I don't think the typo in the title of this youtube video is Sis. Bushman's fault.  )
 

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest MormonGator]

5 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 I have views drive my Right wing family and friends crazy, and views that my Liberal friends think are nutz.  In that way I'm equal opportunity for offending someone!  

Yup. that's one of the many reasons  I think it's important to do your best to keep friendships with people who disagree with you. If all your friends agree with you on every issue, fine. Your choice. But that's a bit boring in my view. 

[Jojo Bags]

On 8/28/2017 at 11:29 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Just as long as we remember they are no different than this very forum- a collection of ideas, opinions, and biased interpretations that doesnt really honestly coincide or agree with actual LDS official doctrine on all topics.

Yep.  Opinions are like noses - everybody has one and some are bigger than others.

[anatess2]

6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Good point.  I feel the same...maybe we are pretzels.   You know from all that twisting back and forth.

This is actually the normal position.  Those who identify as completely right-wing or left-wing may generally either be 1.) partisans (this is not necessarily a bad thing), 2.) don't know what right and left means.

But, that's just my observation as a foreigner who is still struggling with the use of these words in the US Labeling System ^TM

[Sunday21]

7 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Speaking of FAIR, here is my favorite video...Claudia Bushman talking about women in the church.  (I don't think the typo in the title of this youtube video is Sis. Bushman's fault.  )
 

 

I have been meaning to see this! Thanks for the reminder!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I have been meaning to see this! Thanks for the reminder!

I think you will enjoy it!   

@anatess2 what you say makes sense, but it seems like so many people chose their position on any given topic based on what their party thinks without deviation.  I confess I was in that category when I was younger.  It went something like this.  I'm against abortion and Republicans are against abortion, so therefore I'm a Republican.  After that, I didn't have to think, all I needed to know was wha the Party position was.  It's embarassing to admit.  I'm not saying everyone is like that, of course, but I have some friends and family who are...on both sides of the aisle.  

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, LiterateParakeet said:

I think you will enjoy it!   

@anatess2 what you say makes sense, but it seems like so many people chose their position on any given topic based on what their party thinks without deviation.  I confess I was in that category when I was younger.  It went something like this.  I'm against abortion and Republicans are against abortion, so therefore I'm a Republican.  After that, I didn't have to think, all I needed to know was wha the Party position was.  It's embarassing to admit.  I'm not saying everyone is like that, of course, but I have some friends and family who are...on both sides of the aisle.  

Oh goodness Lit, so many people are like this. They just repeat what their party says. Or their parents. Or their friends. Or the media. Or what they'e been taught at school. See a pattern?  You were not alone AT ALL.

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 4:28 PM, Snigmorder said:

And if one professes to believe and supports the leftist program, they ought to engage in some serious reflection and humility. Because when the Eternal Civilization comes, those philosophies, which were a stumbling block to their faith, will be burned as chaff, and they will be restored to nothing but that which they've sown, like the rest of us. 

Their virtue signaling and fake moral high ground will have no merit at the Judgment Bar.

 

I am a leftist compared to Most LDS found in the Utah and Idaho regions.  I admit it.  Overall, however, I had a friend who stated I was actually moderate...and they are correct, but compared to the super ultra wave of conservatism that has taken Utah and Idaho by storm over the past three decades...I'm very decidedly...leftist.

Quote

left·ist

ˈleftəst/  

noun

noun: leftist; plural noun: leftists

1. 1.

   a person with left-wing political views.

adjective

adjective: leftist

1. 1.

    

Wikipedia quote

 

Quote

Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.^{[1][2][3][page needed][4]} It typically involves a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others (prioritarianism), as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished (by advocating for social justice).^[1] The term left wing can also refer to "the radical, reforming, or socialist section of a political party or system".^[5]

The political terms "Left" and "Right" were coined during the French Revolution (1789–1799), referring to the seating arrangement in the Estates General: those who sat on the left generally opposed the monarchy and supported the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization,^[6] while those on the right were supportive of the traditional institutions of the Old Regime. Use of the term "Left" became more prominent after the restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 when it was applied to the "Independents".^[7] The word "wing" was appended to Left and Right in the late 19th century^{[citation needed]} usually with disparaging intent and "left-wing" was applied to those who were unorthodox in their religious or political views.

The term was later applied to a number of movements, especially republicanism during the French Revolution in the 18th century, followed by socialism,^[8]communism, anarchism and social democracy in the 19th and 20th centuries.^[9] Since then, the term left-wing has been applied to a broad range of movements^[10] including civil rights movements, feminist movements, anti-war movements and environmental movements,^[11][12] as well as a wide range of parties

According to legend...when the saints came to Utah, overall, they were very supportive of the Democrats.  Brigham Young would not have any of that, but instead, separated them into two groups.  One group became one party, the other could still support the Democrats.

I find that both sides of the equation are at extremes in many instances.  Many Mormons choose to be Republican due to law of chastity/moral issues of the parties, placing that as the MOST important element.  In these, they choose things like abortion, Gay Marriage, and other issues to be the most important facets to decide what party they should be in.

In some instances, they do join the far right extremes, but in others, I don't think they realize what the far right is pushing.  In Utah, ironically, I find some of the most restrictive laws in regards to taxes, and other issues outside of California.  Other states are NOT as liberal as hard red Republican Utah on economics, immigrant workers, car emissions, and other such things.  I think many Mormons are far closer to Democrats than they realize, but due to the moral facets they place at the top of their chain, cannot see the forest for the trees.

I think that in many instances, the extremists of either side are not the ones that are correct (so no alt-right, but also not necessarily antifa either).  Normally, a better course is found in between the two extremes...or more towards a middle ground.  However, at times, in the far right republican strongholds that are found occasionally among Members in the LDS church, I find this approach makes them see me as very Liberal.  In that light, if it makes me a liberal, I am ALSO happy to acknowledge, at least in regards to that type of politics, I am probably also very leftist.

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[The Folk Prophet]

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I am a leftist compared to Most LDS found in the Utah and Idaho regions.  I admit it.  Overall, however, I had a friend who stated I was actually moderate...and they are correct, but compared to the super ultra wave of conservatism that has taken Utah and Idaho by storm over the past three decades...I'm very decidedly...leftist.

Wikipedia quote

 

According to legend...when the saints came to Utah, overall, they were very supportive of the Democrats.  Brigham Young would not have any of that, but instead, separated them into two groups.  One group became one party, the other could still support the Democrats.

I find that both sides of the equation are at extremes in many instances.  Many Mormons choose to be Republican due to law of chastity/moral issues of the parties, placing that as the MOST important element.  In these, they choose things like abortion, Gay Marriage, and other issues to be the most important facets to decide what party they should be in.

In some instances, they do join the far right extremes, but in others, I don't think they realize what the far right is pushing.  In Utah, ironically, I find some of the most restrictive laws in regards to taxes, and other issues outside of California.  Other states are NOT as liberal as hard red Republican Utah on economics, immigrant workers, car emissions, and other such things.  I think many Mormons are far closer to Democrats than they realize, but due to the moral facets they place at the top of their chain, cannot see the forest for the trees.

I think that in many instances, the extremists of either side are not the ones that are correct (so no alt-right, but also not necessarily antifa either).  Normally, a better course is found in between the two extremes...or more towards a middle ground.  However, at times, in the far right republican strongholds that are found occasionally among Members in the LDS church, I find this approach makes them see me as very Liberal.  In that light, if it makes me a liberal, I am ALSO happy to acknowledge, at least in regards to that type of politics, I am probably also very leftist.

 

It seems to me that you've created a bunch of caricatures in your mind about the typical Mormon political philosophy and accepted them as truth. A few rebuttal ideas:

• The abortion and gay marriage issues are not central to the typical LDS conservative political agenda.
• No one "joining" the far right (alt right) does so without knowing what they are pushing. (What I suspect you mean is that you've bought into the lies that many standard conservative ideologies that have nothing to do with the alt right Nazism, white supremacy, or other extreme "right" evils are being categorized as part of the alt right. Because, of course, to the leftist mind, being religiously against gay marriage is the same as being a Nazi.)
• There are about as many alt right neo-Nazi white supremacist Mormons as there are serial killer Mormons. Sure...they exist. It's hardly a useful sample base.
• The divide between liberal and conservative ideology in the political sphere is a philosophical one, not based on specific issues. Many of the philosophies are related to morality, but the positions on the specific issues are results of the core philosophy, and it is the core philosophy that is ultimately problematic for politically conservative Mormons. Like the idea of believing more government is the solution to any problem.
• Conservative and liberal are relative terms to the times you live it. If you sustain current ideas you are conservative, if you push for change you are liberal. That only equates to the US left vs. right politics in that leftists have been pushing for change. In the early days of the church all believing Mormons were liberal in at least one regard. In the early days of the nation all the founding fathers were liberal. That doesn't speak to their morality or being liberal/conservative in the current climate. Accordingly, the terms have gotten muddied. The more the leftist ideas take root, the less "liberal" leftists are and the more "liberal" rightists are without either changing philosophies one bit.
• Being "Democrat" in pioneer times has very little to do with being Democrat today.

Incidentally, the primary political stand that Utah Mormons ended up taking prior to statehood centered around pretty-much one issue. Want to guess what that issue was?

That being said, I think there are a lot of Mormons clinging to the Republican party despite the fact that the party has long ago abandoned the principles that Mormons generally embrace. But the idea that if Mormons realized that the Republican party no longer represented them because it has bought into too many leftist ideas that the solution would be that Mormons would then convert to a party with even more leftist ideas doesn't strike me as philosophically sound.

Edited September 4, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Snigmorder]

9 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I am a leftist compared to Most LDS found in the Utah and Idaho regions.  I admit it.  Overall, however, I had a friend who stated I was actually moderate...and they are correct, but compared to the super ultra wave of conservatism that has taken Utah and Idaho by storm over the past three decades...I'm very decidedly...leftist.

Wikipedia quote

 

According to legend...when the saints came to Utah, overall, they were very supportive of the Democrats.  Brigham Young would not have any of that, but instead, separated them into two groups.  One group became one party, the other could still support the Democrats.

I find that both sides of the equation are at extremes in many instances.  Many Mormons choose to be Republican due to law of chastity/moral issues of the parties, placing that as the MOST important element.  In these, they choose things like abortion, Gay Marriage, and other issues to be the most important facets to decide what party they should be in.

In some instances, they do join the far right extremes, but in others, I don't think they realize what the far right is pushing.  In Utah, ironically, I find some of the most restrictive laws in regards to taxes, and other issues outside of California.  Other states are NOT as liberal as hard red Republican Utah on economics, immigrant workers, car emissions, and other such things.  I think many Mormons are far closer to Democrats than they realize, but due to the moral facets they place at the top of their chain, cannot see the forest for the trees.

I think that in many instances, the extremists of either side are not the ones that are correct (so no alt-right, but also not necessarily antifa either).  Normally, a better course is found in between the two extremes...or more towards a middle ground.  However, at times, in the far right republican strongholds that are found occasionally among Members in the LDS church, I find this approach makes them see me as very Liberal.  In that light, if it makes me a liberal, I am ALSO happy to acknowledge, at least in regards to that type of politics, I am probably also very leftist.

 

Neither the Democratic Party nor the American left are required  to reach any correct position. If they reach a correct position that does not mean they reached it under the correct moral or logical conditions. If you reach the answer the wrong way, you're still wrong.

The left is not needed, they offer nothing. The very foundation from which they reason and look at the world is wrong, and is obviously under Luciferian influence in all sectors.

[anatess2]

23 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

Neither the Democratic Party nor the American left are required  to reach any correct position. If they reach a correct position that does not mean they reached it under the correct moral or logical conditions. If you reach the answer the wrong way, you're still wrong.

The left is not needed, they offer nothing. The very foundation from which they reason and look at the world is wrong, and is obviously under Luciferian influence in all sectors.

Now this... this is a perfect example of political rhetoric gone amok.  The extremists are not all on the left folks!

[Snigmorder]

50 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Now this... this is a perfect example of political rhetoric gone amok.  The extremists are not all on the left folks!

Calling it rhetoric gone amok does little to shed light on why it's rhetoric gone amok.

[Guest MormonGator]

On 9/4/2017 at 0:30 PM, Snigmorder said:

Neither the Democratic Party nor the American left are required  to reach any correct position. If they reach a correct position that does not mean they reached it under the correct moral or logical conditions. If you reach the answer the wrong way, you're still wrong.

The left is not needed, they offer nothing. The very foundation from which they reason and look at the world is wrong, and is obviously under Luciferian influence in all sectors.

They probably don't like you either.