Does masterbation break the law of chastity?

[BJ64]

10 hours ago, zil said:

Royal bafflement is occurring in my brain.  How can masturbation be anything but "very strong sexual desire; a passionate desire for something; a sensual appetite regarded as sinful."

By very definition, it is satisfaction of a sexual desire or sensual appetite.

(Please note that valid medical / physical limitations have previously been exempted in this thread, so I have seen no reason to repeat them in my earlier post, but I'll add a reminder here, in case that's what you're thinking of.)

Given the definition of lust. 

lust

ləst/

noun

1. 1. 

   very strong sexual desire.

   "he knew that his lust for her had returned"

   synonyms:

   sexual desire, sexual appetite, sexual longing, ardor, desire, passion;More

verb

1. 1. 

   have a very strong sexual desire for someone.

   "he really lusted after me in those days"

   synonyms:

   desire, be consumed with desire for, find sexually attractive, crave, covet, ache for, burn for; More

It seems it would be hard to differentiate between a desire to M and a desire for ones spouse. 

Is lust always a sin or is it situational?

[BJ64]

8 hours ago, Behemoth said:

Ouch... that’s worse then I thought. I’d be interested to confirm my suspicions that the number has changed somewhat congruently with the availability of pornography. 

Something I can’t comprehend is the concept that porn or fantasy is needed in order to M. M existed for thousands of years before widespread distribution of pornography. 

I do not equate the two. 

[BJ64]

I should make it clear that I don’t M. My relationship with my wife is such that I do not have a desire to M. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, BJ64 said:

“All that we teach in this Church ought to be couched in the scriptures. It ought to be found in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures. If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth” (“Using the Scriptures in Our Church Assignments,” Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, 13).

This does not mean:

Quote

Everything we teach must be stated verbatim in the canonized scriptures. If it isn't explicitly stated there, then we can completely ignore any counsel by the leaders of the Church.

Instead, the statement is making the point that all we teach must be founded on principles, commandments, and teachings found in the scriptures.  Part of the function of a Prophet is to expound and interpret the written word for application to our day.

All that the leaders of the Church teach are based on such principles, commandments, and teachings.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Guest

[Lost Boy]

So you are in a marriage where for some reason your spouse can no longer have sex.  But your spouse wants to keep you happy and sexually fulfilled.  Would M. be a sin in this situation?  And if you feel it a sin, what is the solution?

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

So you are in a marriage where for some reason your spouse can no longer have sex.  But your spouse wants to keep you happy and sexually fulfilled.  Would M. be a sin in this situation?  And if you feel it a sin, what is the solution?

Are you talking about self-gratification or interaction with your spouse?  If self-gratification, then, yes, it is a sin.  That's the whole point.  Sex was designed to be a method of bringing husband and wife closer.  If you're off on your own, then obviously, that doesn't satisfy that criterion.

[Grunt]

12 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

So you are in a marriage where for some reason your spouse can no longer have sex.  But your spouse wants to keep you happy and sexually fulfilled.  Would M. be a sin in this situation?  And if you feel it a sin, what is the solution?

 

You’re using rare, outlying examples that invoke sympathy in an attempt to justify a more common norm.  

[Guest]

Just now, Grunt said:

You’re using rare, outlying examples that invoke sympathy in an attempt to justify a more common norm.  

It is essentially the same argument that homosexuals make.

[person0]

16 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

So you are in a marriage where for some reason your spouse can no longer have sex.  But your spouse wants to keep you happy and sexually fulfilled.  Would M. be a sin in this situation?  And if you feel it a sin, what is the solution?

There are many ways spouses can work together to help one another in this type of situation.  However, the simple truth is that when spouse dies it does not give the surviving spouse the right to self gratification, why would an incapacitated spouse be any different?  People who remain unmarried their entire lives do not get eventual permission to do such things.  All these situations are essentially the same, why would the commandment be different in any of these situations?

[BJ64]

25 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

So you are in a marriage where for some reason your spouse can no longer have sex.  But your spouse wants to keep you happy and sexually fulfilled.  Would M. be a sin in this situation?  And if you feel it a sin, what is the solution?

 

If you are talking about sexual relations between you and your spouse then I think it is that, a sexual relation between you and your spouse. I see no reason that M can’t be part of the your sexual relationship with your spouse. 

[person0]

3 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I see no reason that M can’t be part of the your sexual relationship with your spouse.  

Masturbation is a sexual relation with yourself, not your spouse!  Your comment is false!

[BJ64]

4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

So you are in a marriage where for some reason your spouse can no longer have sex.  But your spouse wants to keep you happy and sexually fulfilled.  Would M. be a sin in this situation?  And if you feel it a sin, what is the solution?

 

By M do you mean solo M or M during intimacy with your spouse?

[Grunt]

15 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

By M do you mean solo M or M during intimacy with your spouse?

It doesn't matter.

[BJ64]

53 minutes ago, person0 said:

Masturbation is a sexual relation with yourself, not your spouse!  Your comment is false!

When done as a part of intimacy with your spouse I would consider it to be an intimate relation of a couple. I would not make assignments on who has to do what so long as it’s taking place as a couple. 

I would like to go into more detail to explain myself but that would not be appropriate here on the forum. 

[Lost Boy]

13 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

When done as a part of intimacy with your spouse I would consider it to be an intimate relation of a couple. I would not make assignments on who has to do what so long as it’s taking place as a couple. 

I would like to go into more detail to explain myself but that would not be appropriate here on the forum. 

So a couple is in bed, they get frisky, but one of them decides they are a bit tired and don't want to finish what they started and turns to their partner and says, "You're on your own.  I am just going to lay here and watch" 

Alright to finish the job on your own while your other half watches?

[Lost Boy]

3 hours ago, BJ64 said:

By M do you mean solo M or M during intimacy with your spouse?

M. while your wife is there, perhaps not helping, but maybe giving you some visuals.

[person0]

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

Alright to finish the job on your own while your other half watches?

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

M. while your wife is there, perhaps not helping, but maybe giving you some visuals.

No.  Ask your spouse to help you.

[BJ64]

 

9 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

So you are in a marriage where for some reason your spouse can no longer have sex.  But your spouse wants to keep you happy and sexually fulfilled.  Would M. be a sin in this situation?  And if you feel it a sin, what is the solution?

 

I believe there are many ways in which a couple could fulfill the sexual desires of each other without intercourse or masturbation. However I believe that what married couples do together is up to them. The counsel that has been given is that leaders are not to pry into the sexual activities of a married couple. A general rule that has been stated is that if both husband and wife are in agreement over a sexual act and feel good about it then it is okay but if one or the other are against doing it or if the couple doesn't feel good about doing it or if the act bothers them enough that they would have to ask if it okay to do then it is probably something they should avoid. 

I can think of no instance where it has been specific said that couples may not use M as part of their sexual repetiore. However it has been specifically stated that OS is an unholy and impure practice and that no couple doing it should enter the temple.  However church leaders were told not to aks about it. That condemnation of OS has not been repeated and I'm fairly certain there is a large number of couples who disregard the warning completely and still consider themselves worthy to enter the temple. 

For the Strenght of Youth says Before marriage, do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body.

Note that it says Before marriage. It is obvious that after marriage these prohibitions do not apply equally to a married couple. Before marriage a person is to not think sexual thoughts. As a married man I am free to think about my wife in appropriate sexual ways as often as I like. Thinking about my wife arouses "those emotions" in my body. Am I sinning because thinking about my wife arouses those emotions? I think not.  "Those emotions" are what bring a couple close together both spiritually and physically. 

In a marriage with an appropriate amount of intimacy I don't think that M should be necessary or desired to satisfy ones desires. However if solo  M is frequent because that's the only way satisfaction is going to take place then I think I the couple needs to take stock of their relationship and figure out why appropriate relations aren't happening. 

[JohnsonJones]

My main thought on the past page...

I think there are reasons we do not normally go further into the temple interview questions in certain areas, as certain things are left between the couple and the Lord.  Letting the Spirit guide one in the best choices to make in some areas are probably better to discuss among a married couple than on the board as invariably there will be varied opinions on the matter, all of which may or may not have been inspired by a personal relationship/marriage as each marriage is different and the Lord know better than man individually (or for couples) speaking.

Each individuals personal situation is different and each couple's situation is different.  This is one (of a multitude of many) why it is so important for each couple to have that open channel with the Lord so that they can communicate and find the answers for themselves.  We do not need all things explicitly spelled out for us, and in some ways I'm am glad for that as having to discuss these things in interviews would be distinctly uncomfortable for me (and I'm sure others as well).  This is not a subject that I really enjoy getting into, especially into others private marriages in these areas. 

Over the years views have changed somewhat, and as views have changed, it is increasingly upon the members to pray to know what is right for each individually.  A prime example of this would be Birth Control.  Birth Control used to be almost akin to saying you were an apostate, but as years and times have changed, it is increasingly common and acceptable among the Saints to use various forms of Birth Control.  This does not mean that all Saints will agree to this or think that it is viable.  Many will be old Fashioned. For example, me personally, I'm not so much for the usage of Birth Control.  Today that is a PERSONAL take and opinion, and thus not one that I would try to enforce or impress upon others even if I think there are prophets who have had convincing arguments in the past.  As a result, I know I've had a child or two in marriages who have at times utilized the modern resources of Birth Control at times in their marriages.  It is their own private lives and I hope that these choices were made in prayer between them and the Lord and under the inspiration of the Lord.  The church does not condemn them (though it DOES provide advice on the manner for those who are willing to look it up) on this matter and I'm not about to inject my personal views upon their independent and personal intimate relationships on that matter.

The same applies to many of the more intimate areas of marriage today.  You should avoid certain practices and thoughts within marriage, but I would hope that one can read the scriptures and pray and know for themselves what we should not be doing and what is acceptable in each of their own marriages.  Today, the church has a LOT of personal freedom and choice, and in my opinion, within the bounds of marriages, what happens there is between a husband and wife.  If you have prayed about it and the Lord tells you one thing or another, and you feel it is in accordance with the spirit, then keep it to oneself rather than broadcasting it.  I'm certain as long as one can answer the temple questions honestly and truthfully, many a Bishop will be grateful on that idea rather than people getting into explicit detail of their intimate lives.

Hence, my response is if there are questions, first treat it as any other spiritual question.  Take it up to the Lord and discuss it with him and then wait upon his inspiration.  If it continues to be a problem, then, and only then, might you want to bring it up to the Bishop.  Obviously, there are some things that should be out of bounds and any Bishop would say one should not participate in it (for example, homosexual acts and practices and other things that are spelled out directly in the church standards and teachings).  Beyond that, currently, there is a lot of leeway where it should be the domain and sequester of a married couple between themselves, rather than something a Bishop needs to be asked about in every instance.  If there are questions, pray about it to the Lord and seek answers.

Edited May 21, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[BJ64]

Thank you @JohnsonJones You say what I would say if I was more eloquent. You put my though into words. 

[BJ64]

On a similar note. Vasectomy used to be condemned and probably still is but that condemnation is virtually ignored today. Most men I know who are finished having children have had this done. 

Its interesting to note also that although masturbation seems to still be condemned, sperm donation is only strongly discouraged. Considering how one would donate sperm I’m surprised it is not specifically prohibited as is AI for single women. Also sperm donation would mean that the man would likely be receiving payment for the act and his seed would be used by unknown women which in my view would be much worse than M. 

[Lost Boy]

10 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

On a similar note. Vasectomy used to be condemned and probably still is but that condemnation is virtually ignored today. Most men I know who are finished having children have had this done. 

Its interesting to note also that although masturbation seems to still be condemned, sperm donation is only strongly discouraged. Considering how one would donate sperm I’m surprised it is not specifically prohibited as is AI for single women. Also sperm donation would mean that the man would likely be receiving payment for the act and his seed would be used by unknown women which in my view would be much worse than M. 

Our kids were all C-section and the doc said that me wife probably shouldn't have any more so we fixed her during the last C-section. 

[BJ64]

16 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Our kids were all C-section and the doc said that me wife probably shouldn't have any more so we fixed her during the last C-section. 

I have no problem with that. My wife also had health problems which necessitated a similar solution. 

Now our intimacy is strictly for closeness, bonding and enjoyment. We have fulfilled the command to multiply. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by BJ64

[Just_A_Guy]

57 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

On a similar note. Vasectomy used to be condemned and probably still is but that condemnation is virtually ignored today. Most men I know who are finished having children have had this done. 

Its interesting to note also that although masturbation seems to still be condemned, sperm donation is only strongly discouraged. Considering how one would donate sperm I’m surprised it is not specifically prohibited as is AI for single women. Also sperm donation would mean that the man would likely be receiving payment for the act and his seed would be used by unknown women which in my view would be much worse than M. 

I believe the CHI-2 uses the phrase “strongly discouraged” for both, and for surgical sterilization recommends counseling with a Bishop first.  That’s what Just_A_Girl and I did before I got clipped.  Since we have more kids than our Bishop, he just shrugged and wished me luck with the recovery.

[BJ64]

11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I believe the CHI-2 uses the phrase “strongly discouraged” for both, and for surgical sterilization recommends counseling with a Bishop first.  That’s what Just_A_Girl and I did before I got clipped.  Since we have more kids than our Bishop, he just shrugged and wished me luck with the recovery.

I commend you for discussing it with your bishop. It’s not something I would have done. 

I had an appointment for the procedure to be done when my wife had a doctors appointment where her doctor recommended a surgery for her which negated the need for my procedure so I didn’t have it done.