Baptism for same sex couples?


askandanswer
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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Mental health practitioners/common sense.

You can think whatever you'd like of course. 

When I scream "I hate gays! I hate gays!" it's because I am trying to convince myself, not everyone us. It's in the same way of thinking as the dude at the bar who talks nonstop about how tough he is and how many bar fights he's won. And along with the leftist who screams in your face about how tolerant they are. 

When you scream "I hate gays" it's because you hate gays.  I scream "I hate brussel sprouts".  It doesn't mean I have a secret love for them.

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

When you scream "I hate gays" it's because you hate gays.  I scream "I hate brussel sprouts".  It doesn't mean I have a secret love for them.

I obviously don't see it that way at all. I see at as you (generic, not you meaning @Grunt) trying to convince yourself, not others. 
 

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28 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I agree. But there is, in my opinion, a great confusion between what is "gentle persuasion" and what is denying truth so no one gets their feelings hurt. That, I think, is where the consternation comes into play.

I agree with the statement.  But in the context of this conversation, what are you referring to when you're saying "denying the truth"?  Who is denying what truth?  Quotes? And who is feeling consternation over such?

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23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's fairly obvious/widely accepted that those with the strongest revulsion towards homosexuality are often times in the closet and can't deal with their own feelings. 

Yeah, my revulsion towards tobacco results from my secret love of the leaf.

No, this is Hollywood/liberal culture propaganda.  I'm surprised you're buying into it.  Are there reputable studies on this?  Or are you just repeating what is your perception of "common thought".

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Just now, Grunt said:

So you don't have a revulsion of homosexuality?

It's not my cup of tea, but to each their own. I don't care how you choose to live our life. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

It's not my cup of tea, but to each their own. I don't care how you choose to live our life. 

French fries aren't my cup of tea, but I don't have a revulsion of them.  I do have a revulsion of brussel sprouts, though.   And homosexuality. 

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19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I agree with the statement.  But in the context of this conversation, what are you referring to when you're saying "denying the truth"?  Who is denying what truth?

Truths concerning principles of change, choice, perfection, and corruption.

I can't specifically give you a list of everyone who is buying into lies concerning these principles, nor can I say that I have a complete understanding of truth myself (and that, therefore, I don't belong on that list). What I can say is that there are principles that are being taught now that seem to contradict other principles I have been taught and still believe.

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And who is feeling consternation over such?

I am.

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2 hours ago, JoCa said:

I'll give a quick example, If I'm an alcoholic, I don't go to Church tell everyone hey guys "I'm an alcoholic!!!" but I can still hold callings b/c I don't drink. I might say (in a private setting or at special moments) "at times in past I've had problems with alcohol, but through Christ, I've been able to overcome them".

But today in the Church openly homosexual members say "I'm homosexual!!!" but I can still hold callings b/c I don't break the LoC.

 

But, you can tell everyone "I'm an alcoholic", and still remain a valid temple recommend holder. And the ward members should still keep you in fellowship. But yes, I do acknowledge that if you are sinful, you should normally be ashamed of the sin. Wanting to shout from the rooftops that you are an alcoholic (or homosexual) indicates a problem on your part, not the church's.

I do believe the church has always had to change it's methods to suit the audience. "Build up a year's supply of food storage" has supposedly changed to just a few months. They teach what we're willing to hear. The tone of the messages of the church says something about the audience - it doesn't indicate a waffling on eternal truths.

 

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3 hours ago, eddified said:

"Build up a year's supply of food storage" has supposedly changed to just a few months. They teach what we're willing to hear. The tone of the messages of the church says something about the audience - it doesn't indicate a waffling on eternal truths.

I feel quite confident that having a year's supply of food was never an eternal truth.

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24 minutes ago, Armin said:

Not in Germany.

Is it enforced?  Some US states still have laws on the books about both adultery and fornication; but I've almost** never seen charges brought under those statutes.

 

*I once saw a teenager in juvenile court plead down to "fornication" after initially being charged with "lewdness involving a minor", for a sexual relationship with another teenager.  But that was part of a plea deal, with with all parties consenting; and if anyone had objected it surely would have been thrown out. I can't imagine a prosecutor actually bringing charges.

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6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Ok, enlighten me.  What are some quotes from 20 years ago vs. today?  I've read a bunch as well as arguments similar to yours here.  And as I read it, I'm certainly not getting the same thing out of it that they get.  I do hear a softening in "tone" not the overall message.  The principles have been the same.  But there was a time to cry out repentance from the roof tops.  Today is a time for gentle persuasion.

No change in principle.  Just a change in method.

I agree there is a softening of tone. I agree the principles have been the same; however it is getting harder and harder to actually hear the principles. 

When you have active temple recommend holders attending homosexual weddings and it is seen as acceptable, right, good and even so much as that to not attend a homosexual wedding is seen as "hate", then the message is getting muddled and the principles are getting muddled.  That is what a softening of tone leads too. 

Eventually over time, acceptance of a softening of tone becomes acceptance of certain behaviors which if not checked over time will actually change principles.

I grew up in an era where we were taught unequivocally homosexual behaviors of any kind was sin.  Are the youth taught that today?  When YW are making pride bracelets for a Church activity are they really being taught correct principles? Pride bracelets are all about celebrating homosexuality, attending a homosexual wedding is about celebrating homosexuality. 

Are the principles really the same?  Maybe underneath they are, but on the surface they are world's apart. So when do we go from celebrating homosexuality to saying well in principle it's not a sin?  When do we move from well it was just those bigoted prophets in the past and this new and enlightened modern generation we aren't like that?

I actually think you have the order of the gentle persuasion and crying repentance reversed.  The scriptures are full of examples where 1st God tries the gentle persuasion and then when they don't listen or go too far off the rails, then comes the cry of repentance. We are in the last days, and thus evil is called good and good called evil-it's pretty obvious. 

I'm totally fine with today being the time for gentle persuasion.  My main point was and still is that the Church will continue to go down this path and eventually it will reach a point where it will be pretty obvious one of two things will happen, either the Church caves on this issue or the hammer comes down. The reason why I say this is that the homosexual agenda does not stop at just saying well you do whatever you want to but it is still wrong.  The homosexual agenda will not stop until it has brainwashed everyone (at least everyone on the surface), that homosexuality is no sin, it is just a different way of living and its no big deal.

You see it in the Church's media video's about the family who's son "came out". And it will continue down this path until it is obvious that one of two choices must be adopted.

 

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4 hours ago, eddified said:

I do believe the church has always had to change it's methods to suit the audience.

Totally agree, and the main point being here that as a general membership, we have become more acquiescing to sin. The members of the Church do not want to hear the harshness of Ezra Taft Benson nor of Kimball, they want only pleasing words spoken to them. And the Lord gives it . . .until people have sufficiently ripened in iniquity and then the hammer gets dropped-and then we see who is on the Lord's side and who isn't.

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7 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's fairly obvious/widely accepted that those with the strongest revulsion towards homosexuality are often times in the closet and can't deal with their own feelings. 

I think you've read to much psycobabble.

I dislike smoke, cigarettes, etc.  It's a nasty habit and filthy.  I don't go to places where smoke is and I do my best to just stay away from it. I have no problems with individuals who smoke, I'd just rather not be around the smell. Go smoke, that's fine no problem-but don't tell me it's healthy or leads to a happy lifestyle.

If everywhere I went, it was shoved into my face, made an example, if Church's came out and said we must have compassion for those who smoke, and if I was continually bombarded with a message of it's wonderful, if you don't associate with those who smoke you are an "evil" person, etc. etc. etc., then yes I would protest loudly and vigorously against it.

Change smoke to homosexuality and there you have it.  I quite frankly am sick and tired of being bombarded with all this messages that it's so wonderful and that we should just have compassion.  I don't really care what people do with their life, go be homosexual and go destroy your life-no skin off my back.  But stop trying to tell me that because I stand up for what is true (i.e. homosexuality is a evil sin, people can change through Christ can overcome their worst sins), that I'm the one who is messed up.  Stop telling me that the reason your (as in the homosexuals) life is so messed up is because I don't "accept" you.  Whatever, stop being a drama queen, grow up, learn to become responsible for your own life.  You have a messed up life, you have mental problems, own up to it and recognize your own faults in it. Maybe, just maybe you should try to overcome all your sins rather than just the ones you think are sins.

Yes, I will pushback quite hard on that.

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1 hour ago, JoCa said:

When you have active temple recommend holders attending homosexual weddings and it is seen as acceptable, right, good and even so much as that to not attend a homosexual wedding is seen as "hate", then the message is getting muddled and the principles are getting muddled.  That is what a softening of tone leads too. 

Eventually over time, acceptance of a softening of tone becomes acceptance of certain behaviors which if not checked over time will actually change principles.

I grew up in an era where we were taught unequivocally homosexual behaviors of any kind was sin.  Are the youth taught that today?  When YW are making pride bracelets for a Church activity are they really being taught correct principles? Pride bracelets are all about celebrating homosexuality, attending a homosexual wedding is about celebrating homosexuality. 

Now, this stuff is a completely different story.  It has nothing to do with softening of tone for the sake of gentle persuasion.  This is about the Samuel Principle.  It is no different than Moses allowing divorces.

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Now, this stuff is a completely different story.  It has nothing to do with softening of tone for the sake of gentle persuasion.  This is about the Samuel Principle.  It is no different than Moses allowing divorces.

What is the Samuel principle?

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5 minutes ago, eddified said:

What is the Samuel principle?

When the Children of Israel would not listen to the Prophet (Samuel) when he said they should not have a king.  They wanted and demanded one anyway.  So, the Lord essentially said,"Ok, Samuel, go ahead and let them.  Just remember I said it wasn't such a good idea.  And if they are to have a king, we'll do it this way ... so as to lessen the damage it will do."

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On 30/08/2017 at 10:09 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

This has *nothing* to do with honoring and sustaining the law.  Adultery and fornication are legal, too.

@JustAGuy could you elaborate on this please? I’m having difficulty seeing how the church can reject and condemn something that the law says is acceptable, while still saying that we honour, obey and sustain the law. The same principle applies to laws that legalise abortion, marijuana, and prostitution. Perhaps others have a different view from mine about what it means to honour and sustain something?

 

sustain

verb

1.    1.

strengthen or support physically or mentally.

"this thought had sustained him throughout the years"

synonyms:

comforthelpassistencouragesuccoursupport, give strength to, be a source of strength to, be a tower of strength to, buoy up, carry, cheer up, hearten, see someone through; 

informalbuck up

"she had lived life to the full, but now had only the memories of such times to sustain her"

 

honour

verb

1.    1.

regard with great respect.

"Joyce has now learned to honour her father's memory"

synonyms:

hold in great respect, hold in high esteem, have a high regard for, esteemrespectadmire, defer to, look up to, think highly of; More

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On 30/08/2017 at 10:28 AM, Jane_Doe said:

The 12th Article of Faith doesn't really come into play here, as no one is currently breaking the law or being encouraged to do so in the future.  All is well with the kingdom of man.

 

I think that honouring and sustaining the law requires much more than just not breaking them. And if your'e in one of those unfortunate jurisdictions where legal protection is not provided to religious marriage celebrants, then one might well be breaking the law by refusing to perform a same sex marriage.

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On 30/08/2017 at 0:14 PM, Grunt said:

I'm not sure what the issue is, and as one of the unwashed is there something more complicated that I'm missing?   It seems blatantly obvious to me as a heathen.  

Committing sin and unrepentant and/or willfully disobeying God equals no baptism.  

Follwing the will of God and obeying the church rules equals baptism should you choose it. 

Anyone can attend and even participate to a decent degree, but baptism requires a covenant with God.  

What am I missing?

I agree with what you have said here @Grunt but the part that seems to me to be missing is the part where the church says it honours and sustains the law. I'm not quite sure yet how you can say you honour and sustain the law while rejecting and condeming the practices it allows. Does the church only honour and sustain some laws and not others? Or does it mean the law generally, and not specifically? Or does it mean it honours the broad principle of law, as opposed to lawlessness? Or is the church stepping away from a complete and full committment to honouring the law? Or is there something that I'm missing?

Whatever the answer is doesn't really matter to me, it's not going to affect my faith or testimony. But I am curious and would like to have a better understanding of this question.

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3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I agree with what you have said here @Grunt but the part that seems to me to be missing is the part where the church says it honours and sustains the law. I'm not quite sure yet how you can say you honour and sustain the law while rejecting and condeming the practices it allows. Does the church only honour and sustain some laws and not others? Or does it mean the law generally, and not specifically? Or does it mean it honours the broad principle of law, as opposed to lawlessness? Or is the church stepping away from a complete and full committment to honouring the law? Or is there something that I'm missing?

Alcohol is legal, but I doubt asking the bishop to hold your beer while you're in the font would go over well. 

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15 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's fairly obvious/widely accepted that those with the strongest revulsion towards homosexuality are often times in the closet and can't deal with their own feelings. 

This is called projection. You see in others what you fear in yourself. See I learned something in undergrad!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

@Grunt @Carborendum

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48 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

This is called projection. You see in others what you fear in yourself. See I learned something in undergrad!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

@Grunt @Carborendum

Do you believe that the MAJORITY of those who vocalize disapproval of homosexual activity are closet homosexuals?

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