GirlNextDoor

Mad at Modesty

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Agree totally. I think the Europeans have it right. Nudity is much more accepted there, like we all know. Americans can be very prudish about those sort of things. 

You say "prudish".  The Apostles say "modest".  I think I'm on safer ground siding with the church.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You say "prudish".  The Apostles say "modest".  I think I'm on safer ground siding with the church.

It would be interesting to hear from church members from other countries. I’ve read accounts of church member families going to coed nude spas somewhere in Europe and that it was no big deal. 

I believe that pornography would not be such a big deal if the human body wasn’t considered an object to never be viewed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You say "prudish".  The Apostles say "modest".  I think I'm on safer ground siding with the church.

It would be interesting to hear from church members from other countries. I’ve read accounts of church member families going to coed nude spas somewhere in Europe and that it was no big deal. 

I believe that pornography would not be such a big deal if the human body wasn’t considered an object to never be viewed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

It would be interesting to hear from church members from other countries. I’ve read accounts of church member families going to coed nude spas somewhere in Europe and that it was no big deal. 

I believe that pornography would not be such a big deal if the human body wasn’t considered an object to never be viewed. 

Sure.  And I’ve read about members who drink coffee and think it’s no big deal.  God obviously thinks otherwise, regardless how man tries to twist things to his favor.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:49 PM, BJ64 said:

It would be interesting to hear from church members from other countries. I’ve read accounts of church member families going to coed nude spas somewhere in Europe and that it was no big deal. 

I believe that pornography would not be such a big deal if the human body wasn’t considered an object to never be viewed. 

I've been to and through Europe, but I cannot say I've ever been to a coed spa.  Never saw that it was promoted as something Saints should do.

Now, I believe that in some Scandinavian countries they DO have Bastu/Banya/Sauna where people of both genders can go into.  They can be naked, in towels, or in swim suits or otherwise.  I think custom for some is to be completely in the nude, but I also think modestly has a place among some there and for them they normally are in towels.

I'm more connected to German Relatives and they have never had me go to anything like that, and I'm not Scandinavian so I can't tell you from any firsthand experience on those.  They have beaches and what people wear to the beach can differ greatly from what is acceptable in the US.  In the Mediterranean there are many who may go with far less clothes than in the US...but that covers EVERYONE, male and female, very young to VERY OLD. 

You can always tell the Americans that haven't gotten any manners on the issue though, they are gawking at some of the younger women at times, normally quite inappropriately.  The best thing for Saints to do is to not focus on things and not to put your mind in the gutter.  Basically mind your own business and your own family and the day at the beach rather than other people's day at the beach.  For every individual that is less dressed at a beach, there are probably three or four (sometimes more...such as ten to twenty...depends on the country and the location) that are dressed just like you would expect at a beach in the US, and sometimes with even more on than that.  Modesty still has it's place in Europe, at least in my experiences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Modesty is a cardinal principle of the Law of chastity.  Modesty is also a means of communicating – intelligence among other things.  If someone swims with piranha and deliberately adds blood to the water – it will not matter much where the blame lies – blame will not change much of what happens. 

Scientifically we define intelligence as the ability to learn and modify our behavior to bring about a more desirable result.   When it comes to social behavior – how we behave and adorn ourselves has a lot to do with how we want and intend other to perceive us.   Anyway – it should.   I have often wondered why on Halloween – so many ladies go out of their way to appear as characters generally considered immodest?

If someone truly does not care what others think of them – then they will not complain about what others think, say and expect of them based what they think of them.   There are always exceptions but my point is – that if you do not want particular responses then avoid those things (whenever possible) that seem to be directly related to unwanted responses.    

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Traveler said:

  how we behave and adorn ourselves has a lot to do with how we want and intend other to perceive us.   Anyway – it should.   

The Traveler

How I intend others to perceive me when I am at a pool is as a tall, lean, muscular, ripped swimmer dude. 

There’s nothing immodest about that. 😊

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, BJ64 said:

How I intend others to perceive me when I am at a pool is as a tall, lean, muscular, ripped swimmer dude. 

There’s nothing immodest about that. 😊

 

Interesting – I am somewhat gregarious but not much of a fan of large crowds.  I would rather observe than be observed.   When I am at a pool I prefer to be invisible and observe how individuals in the crowd react – especially to those who obviously want to be noticed.   One lesson I have learned is that often there is a difference between what people think they are communicating and the message others are getting.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Interesting – I am somewhat gregarious but not much of a fan of large crowds.  I would rather observe than be observed.   When I am at a pool I prefer to be invisible and observe how individuals in the crowd react – especially to those who obviously want to be noticed.   One lesson I have learned is that often there is a difference between what people think they are communicating and the message others are getting.

 

The Traveler

I think a fat man with his gut hanging out while wearing large bulky swim trunks is likely to draw more negative attention than a fit man in a speedo. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I think a fat man with his gut hanging out while wearing large bulky swim trunks is likely to draw more negative attention than a fit man in a speedo. 

You're missing the point.  A crocodile in the pool will likely draw more negative attention than a woman in a G String, too.  However, one is immodest and one is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I think a fat man with his gut hanging out while wearing large bulky swim trunks is likely to draw more negative attention than a fit man in a speedo. 

Who showed you my vacation pics?????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You're missing the point.  A crocodile in the pool will likely draw more negative attention than a woman in a G String, too.  However, one is immodest and one is not.

A shirtless fat man at a pool could be considered immodest because “nobody wants to see that”.

He might be showing too much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You're missing the point.  A crocodile in the pool will likely draw more negative attention than a woman in a G String, too.  However, one is immodest and one is not.

A shirtless fat man at a pool could be considered immodest because “nobody wants to see that”.

He might be showing too much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You're missing the point.  A crocodile in the pool will likely draw more negative attention than a woman in a G String, too.  However, one is immodest and one is not.

A shirtless fat man at a pool could be considered immodest because “nobody wants to see that”.

He might be showing too much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

A shirtless fat man at a pool could be considered immodest because “nobody wants to see that”.

He might be showing too much. 

"Nobody wants to see that" isn't a standard of modesty.  I see that your errors in judgment may lie in a misunderstanding of modesty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Listen 👂

Seduction isn’t as much about skin as it is, about intention. Plenty of you have mentioned that. We have a standard order according to our culture(s) on how and what we do. We eat at a table, instead of the ground (anyone know why?). we wear clothes. we drive on one side of the street. we urinate in specific recepticals within specific gender enclosed rooms etc. There are reasons we do them, though as any generation detached from the original actions and mores of their anteprecedants, we may forget and begin to question their relevance (not always a bad thing) to free our selves from what could be foolish traditions. 

a woman and a man understand their intention when they get dressed in the morning. - A little red lipstick, some high hills. “No, I don’t want to seduce anyone, that’s not the message I’M trying to communicate, I want to be pretty “ .

I need to know. What is the difference? what ARE you competing for? 

Modesty, by definition, is about being reserved. Do you want everyone to notice your prettiness? Be orderly, not pretty. 

After you get done competing, then we can talk about the men’s fault in the matter. 

E.g. I often hear people of both genders get angry while fasting say something like this: “DONT you realize I’M FASTING!? Couldn’t you eat something cold, and nasty so I wouldn’t be so tempted? “ Really? This is the same person that is supposed to (as the scriptures say) wash their face, and change their countenance so as avoid letting others know they’re fasting, and being motivated for glory of others. 

 No, I don’t expect my family to change their behavior when I’m fasting. But, you know what they aren’t doing. They’re not competing to tempt me, by going out of their way to make my favorite things, they would NEVER make on any other day. 

You could be in a burka for all I care and if your intention was seduction, I would say that was very immodest.

I want to hear your counter arguments. Do you all agree? Calling you back with the tags cause it looked like this conversation died out.

@Jane_Doe @zil @BJ64 @Carborendum @Dillon

 

Edited by Behemoth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What you dress in is about comfort, practicality, and message.  Focusing on the message part: you're giving messages to yourself and to others.  Different cloth is different circumstances/cultures give different messages, same with different individuals.  You want to be conscious of this and modest in what you say with your appearance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Behemoth said:

Listen 👂

Seduction isn’t as much about skin as it is, about intention. Plenty of you have mentioned that. We have a standard order according to our culture(s) on how and what we do. We eat at a table, instead of the ground (anyone know why?). we wear clothes. we drive on one side of the street. we urinate in specific recepticals within specific gender enclosed rooms etc. There are reasons we do them, though as any generation detached from the original actions and mores of their anteprecedants, we may forget and begin to question their relevance (not always a bad thing) to free our selves from what could be foolish traditions. 

a woman and a man understand their intention when they get dressed in the morning. - A little red lipstick, some high hills. “No, I don’t want to seduce anyone, that’s not the message I’M trying to communicate, I want to be pretty “ .

I need to know. What is the difference? what ARE you competing for? 

Modesty, by definition, is about being reserved. Do you want everyone to notice your prettiness? Be orderly, not pretty. 

After you get done competing, then we can talk about the men’s fault in the matter. 

E.g. I often hear people of both genders get angry while fasting say something like this: “DONT you realize I’M FASTING!? Couldn’t you eat something cold, and nasty so I wouldn’t be so tempted? “ Really? This is the same person that is supposed to (as the scriptures say) wash their face, and change their countenance so as avoid letting others know they’re fasting, and being motivated for glory of others. 

 No, I don’t expect my family to change their behavior when I’m fasting. But, you know what they aren’t doing. They’re not competing to tempt me, by going out of there way to make my favorite things, they would never make on any other day. 

You could be in a burka for all I care and if your intention was seduction, I would say that was very immodest.

I want to hear your counter arguments.

@Jane_Doe @zil @BJ64 

 

 

I never dress to seduce. I dress to look good. For church I wear a white shirt and tie. For work I dress to be practical. For working out I dress for ease of movement and comfort. For doing Taekwondo I wear my Taekwondo uniform. For swimming I wear a swimsuit. I suppose any of these “costumes” could be seductive to someone out there but I’m not wearing them to seduce. 

 

Someone posted a thing saying we should not draw undue attention upon ourselves. I asked how you differentiate between due and undue attention. I posted the definitions of each. If undue attention is more attention than is warranted and due attention is an appropriate amount of attention then I would say that I am modest in that regard. Any attention I get while wearing my gym clothes or speedo or Sunday suit is not more than warranted or more than due. A fat person can draw an undue amount of attention simply by being fat. 

 

Some say we should dress our body in a way that shows respect for our body and glorifies God. Who is showing more respect for their body and is bringing more glory to its Creator, a 300lb man in a business suit or a fit 175lb man in a swimsuit. 

 

As I alluded to earlier I think that a suit, white shirt and tie can be immodest. There are times when a suit can be terribly inappropriate. For example if government or church officials visit a disaster area all dressed up as usual they look aloof and not ready lend a helping hand. 

 

I suppose there are those here who would have everyone live by the BYU or stricter yet BYU-I dress and grooming code. But that wouldn’t fly within the general church membership. 

 

My nephew married a returned missionary from California. They now live in Idaho. She can’t understand all the fuss over two piece swimsuits which show the woman’s stomach. She said where she grew up all the girls wore them and nobody thought anything of it. Her sister, also a returned missionary wore a bikini to a family water skiing party last summer. She didn’t think anything of it and neither did I. She certainly wasn’t being seductive. 

 

I think modesty standards very a lot by local traditions and I think church members from within the intermountain west would be surprised by traditions among members in other parts of the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

And @BJ64 mr. BJ, you don’t need to let everyone know how strong you are. 

How strong am I? I said nothing about being strong, just muscular and ripped. 😄

Edited by BJ64

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I think modesty standards very a lot by local traditions and I think church members from within the intermountain west would be surprised by traditions among members in other parts of the world.

Yup, in some places they don’t even wear clothes! 

But, don’t think its without effect. There’s a reason why, I believe the USA has developed fast and strong, and I would like to attribute it to habits of decency and modesty over the general population.

And no, I despise the Burka in all situations. (If you were wondering) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
11 hours ago, Behemoth said:

Listen 👂...

That pretty much covered most of what I said.  I don't see why you thought I'd offer a counter.  Did I say something that would indicate my opnion would be different?

10 hours ago, Behemoth said:

Yup, in some places they don’t even wear clothes! 

But, don’t think its without effect. There’s a reason why, I believe the USA has developed fast and strong, and I would like to attribute it to habits of decency and modesty over the general population.

And no, I despise the Burka in all situations. (If you were wondering) 

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this.

I disagree with the notion that BJ put together that just because other cultures are ok with public nudity that it is just a cultural norm.  I believe that's no different than saying that any sin is only a cultural norm.  People kill for profit or to take another man's wife in other countries.  Police in other countries extort money from local businessmen.  And everyone pretty much expects it and they don't have much more reaction to it than nudity in these European countries we're talking about.

Consider all the countries that do have naked coed saunas and spas.  All of them already have an extremely loose sexual culture.  People have an itch and they grab a stranger to help them scratch it and go on.  The reason they don't think about nudity is that they're already constantly exposed to sex.  Does that make fornication simply a cultural thing?  These guys live in cultures that are so hyper-sexualized that nudity isn't really high on the concern bar.

When you live in a culture that is debating the use of marijuana, they'll roll their eyes at Mormons who are debating the consumption of caffienated soft drinks.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now