Temple marriage for the sole purpose of having sex?

[Grunt]

27 minutes ago, chasingthewind said:

 

If I am clearly a person who should be ignored, then why did you respond to my post?  Why didn't you ignore me?  lol!  Instead of trying to (unsuccessfully) ignore me, why can't you simply show me scriptures or teachings of modern prophets that contradict my reasoning? 

 

Because what is the point?  Most of us worry about our own marriages and relationship with God.  What do you hope to gain?  Condemnation?  Insight?  What exactly are you looking for?

[Just_A_Guy]

42 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Because what is the point?  Most of us worry about our own marriages and relationship with God.  What do you hope to gain?  Condemnation?  Insight?  What exactly are you looking for?

Just so.  @chasingthewind, we've all agreed that sex as primary impetus for marriage is unwise.  Why do you insist we call it "sinful"?  What is the appeal to you of our using that particular verbiage to label a situation?

This feels like we're being asked to validate some sort of ego trip of yours. 

Why?

Edited September 4, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

Well chasingthewind, kudos to you for wading through an entire big pile of people who are all pretty much arguing with you about almost everything you're saying.  It takes guts to face such opposition and stick to your guns.

I wish you well in life, and if you haven't already read it, I heartily recommend Laura Brotherson's book And They Were Not Ashamed.  Actually, I recommend this book to just about everyone, whether they agree with me or not.  It's one of the best LDS-based books on the subject out there.

Happy arguing!

[estradling75]

Interesting..  just the other day I read an article about the falling marriage rates.  That contrary to expectation young men were not afraid to commit to marriage.  But due to sex out in the world being cheap and easy to obtain they had no reason to commit.  Marriage now a days offered them nothing that they could not get elsewhere easier.  Thus out in the world it is simple case of supply and demand and the supply is oversaturated. 

Now the church has held the line here.  So for faithful members of the church the price of sex is still high.  I am pretty sure for a lot of faithful guys in the church who get married, on the list of reasons why they got married "to have sex" and it is probably pretty high.  And that is pretty much acceptable and expected.  Of course being a "faithful" guy they are also expected to understand a accept the idea of Eternal companion and covenant with God, and those are also on the list.  And if they are not "faithful" guys why are they even bothering with getting married when the world offers them easier ways to getting sex?

[Midwest LDS]

I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying too make @chasingthewind so forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are equating sexual desire with sin. I believe that is false and I will use scriptues both ancient and modern to show why I belive it is false

First, Proverbs 5:18-19

18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

  19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love

Also D and C 42:22

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else”

Sounds pretty clear that sexual desire for one's wife is an important part of a lasting marriage but let's see what our prophets and apostles have said about the matter

President John Taylor

“We have a great many principles innate in our natures that are correct, but they want sanctifying. God said to man, ‘Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.’ (Genesis 1:28.) Well, he has planted, in accordance with this, a natural desire in woman towards man, and in man towards woman and a feeling of affection, regard, and sympathy exists between the sexes. We bring it into the world with us, but that, like everything else, has to be sanctified. An unlawful gratification of these feelings and sympathies is wrong in the sight of God, and leads down to death, while a proper exercise of our functions leads to life, happiness, and exaltation in this world and the world to come. And so it is in regard to a thousand other things” 

Also President Joseph F. Smith

“The lawful association of the sexes is ordained of God, not only as the sole means of race perpetuation, but for the development of the higher faculties and nobler traits of human nature, which the love-inspired companionship of man and woman alone can insure” 

Finally, President (then Elder) Russel M. Nelson April 2006 Conference

"Marriage is both a commandment and an exalting principle of the gospel. Because it is ordained of God, the intimate physical expressions of married love are sacred."

God planted sexual desire in us and, when used as proscribed in the sacred bonds of marriage, it is a beautiful and amazing process that draws husbands and wives closer together than anything else they can do. I think you may be confusing lust, which is unbridled sexual desire and is what the Savior is talking about in Matthew, with basic sexual desire which most of us have and was given to us by God. 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, chasingthewind said:

 

If I am clearly a person who should be ignored, then why did you respond to my post?  Why didn't you ignore me?  lol!  Instead of trying to (unsuccessfully) ignore me, why can't you simply show me scriptures or teachings of modern prophets that contradict my reasoning? 

 

He (and almost everybody else responding to this thread for that matter), explained why your view is not consistent with the scriptures.  @Vort even went on to point to you scriptures that show it.  So yes, we "simply showed you scriptures and teachings that contradict your reasoning".

Yeah, I really find it interesting that you're throwing verbal ammo at Vort.  By the way, this might be one of the reasons we're having trouble here... you seem to have difficulty understanding what we're saying.  For example - Vort did not say to ignore you as a person.  Vort said to ignore your incorrect interpretation of Matthew and Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

On 9/2/2017 at 5:00 PM, chasingthewind said:

Are you saying you don't find it immoral to turn God's temple into a place to fulfill one's lustful desires?

Are you saying that obeying God's commandments is not to be accomplished in the temple?

[JoCa]

So I will jump in and slightly (only slightly) defend chasing.

I do agree that one of the seven deadly sins in Lust which is:"1) intense or unrestrained sexual craving, or 2) an overwhelming desire or craving."

We are commanded not to lust, regardless of whether the person we lust after is married or unmarried.  Adultery is between someone who is married, fornication is with someone unmarried.  I think it is applicable that we could modify slightly the scripture to say whosoever "looketh upon a woman to lust after has committed fornication in his heart".

So certainly one who is lusting after their potential future spouse is committing a sin .. .however the remedy for that in Corinthians is to get married, i.e. better to marry than to continue on in the sin of lust.

So is the act of getting married for sex sinful-no.  Is the act of lusting prior to marriage sinful-yes.  D&C 121, "let virtue garnish thy thoughts".

So did this individual sin prior to being married, certainly yes. However, I think the point being that the actual repentance of the sin of lust is either a) cut that person off from your life so you don't think about them anymore or b) get married!!! In other words, getting married was exactly what was needed to repent and get rid of the sin! Ipso facto, how in the world could getting married be sinful if it was the remedy for the actual sin of lust itself!

[Vort]

42 minutes ago, JoCa said:

So I will jump in and slightly (only slightly) defend chasing.

I do agree that one of the seven deadly sins in Lust which is:"1) intense or unrestrained sexual craving, or 2) an overwhelming desire or craving."

In the context of scripture, "lust" refers not merely to sexual appetite, but to inappropriate sexual appetite. Desiring one's wife is not inappropriate.

43 minutes ago, JoCa said:

We are commanded not to lust, regardless of whether the person we lust after is married or unmarried.

Again, if the person is our spouse, by definition we cannot lust after them.

44 minutes ago, JoCa said:

Adultery is between someone who is married, fornication is with someone unmarried.

Not quite. Adultery is sexual congress which breaks an oath, such as a marital oath (or a temple covenant). Fornication refers generally to unlawful sex, and so encompasses adultery.

45 minutes ago, JoCa said:

I think it is applicable that we could modify slightly the scripture to say whosoever "looketh upon a woman to lust after has committed fornication in his heart".

We could indeed modify the scripture, but we would be wresting said scripture if we did so. The Lord was speaking to those under the covenant. Lusting after a woman (who therefore is not your wife) is not simply a fornication in the heart; it is transgressing the covenant, which makes it adultery.

46 minutes ago, JoCa said:

So certainly one who is lusting after their potential future spouse is committing a sin

I am uncomfortable with what seems to be an almost Pharasaical approach to this issue. I am not targeting JoCa specifically, but speaking in general. When we speak of "committing a sin", we sound very Catholic, as in: "That action qualifies as a sin! See? It's right here on the list! Now you must expiate yourself by reciting ten Hail Marys!" But this is not at all the doctrine of Christ, not the gospel as restored in the latter days.

Does lusting after a woman remove the influence of the Spirit? Yes. Does desiring your wife remove the influence of the Spirit? In my experience, no. Then which is sin? That which removes you from the Spirit.

Feeling intense affection for one's fiancée is not sinful, even if that affection includes a measure of sexual anticipation -- and how could it not? When the Lord talked about adultery of the heart, he was not referring to an engaged couple anticipating their wedding night. He was speaking of men who looked at the women around them and fantasized about sex. He was speaking of those who lusted after the wives of their neighbors and desired women as a conquest and as an outlet for their sexual desires. To me, this is clear, even obvious, in the context of Jesus' words.

tldr: Claiming that Jesus was condemning any sexual desire of any kind is absurd, and pointedly contradicts the teachings of our latter-day prophets.