What is doctrine and what is not?


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5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

He said if he was anywhere without his spouse in the hereafter, it would be Hell to him.

A sweet sentiment, but false by definition. That is the kind of thing that husbands say but that should be taken with a grain of salt.

d10ef18178c697e95753d7edd891b8fe--the-of

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7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

That is actually a VERY deep question, though it may not appear so on the surface.  I know many decades ago (far too many for me to reveal just how many, plus you may see how old I am then :eek: )I had a Mission President.  He said if he was anywhere without his spouse in the hereafter, it would be Hell to him. 

When we think about spiritual death, it is the separation of man from his Father (and the Lord).  This can have several different meanings.  One could see it as the inability to see and be with the Lord.  One could see it as a separation from the Kingdom of the Lord.  One could also see it as several ideas.  Pertaining to the two I just mentioned though...

If it is the first, we know that in the Telestial Kingdom man are not visited by the Lord or the Father, but may be visitied with angelic messengers.  In that light, one could postulate under at least one definition of spiritual death, that idea continues.

However, as we believe the Telestial Kingdom is also part of the Kingdom of the Lord (as I believe this earth is also, at least I think it fall in that definition, but a fallen world rather than one raised in any glory), in that light it is salvation from hell.

Edit: Such postulations could go on and one I think.  However, when thinking about such things, normally these are NOT doctrine specifically, or doctrine as specifically pointed out by the LDS church.  AS such, what I said above is my own ponderings, rather than the set doctrine of the LDS church. This is also why there may be such great deviations among members as to what different things mean or what various things in this life or the next hold.

I am the type to sway with the black and white contrasts of the gospel. Christ, in his ministry on earth, taught a very strict dichotomy of heaven or hell. His ability to see the end result is amazing yet logical, on the one hand- the Fathers work and glory and those who gravitate towards the light and on the other hand those who gravitate eventually to Satan and are cast aside.

One of my favorite parables is the wheat and the tares. In the parable Christ aknowledges all of mankind and the wheat and tares grow together. Early on its hard to tell the difference. I liken this to mortality because it truly is hard in this life to tell them apart. But as time progresses and harvest comes it becomes readily apparent who is a wheat and who is the tare. The wheat are taken out while the tares are left to be burned.

I find it interesting that there isnt mention of a second or even third type of seed in the field that produces fruit. No, only the wheat. Why is this important? Because Christs work is to save all of the one type of seed whose fruits are the same into the same garner together. I know you have seen a garner full of wheat- they are all alike. The garners are symbolic in the parable to mean temples. That is the work we do. In the temple all of the work has one, and only one purpose. That one purpose is to advance man back into Gods presence in his kingdom. There are no saving ordinances performed that lead man to any other place than exactly right back to God in his very kingdom. Think about it- the wheat are all gathered and stored in one place. So too is the work in the temple- each ordinance and covenant leads, through obedience, to the next as a preparatory means to bring us back and advance us into godliness in Gods presence.

Of special interest, Christ never taught a parable or teaching of salvation that spreads man into an inferior kingdom. It is Christ who says to those on his right hand -

"34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34).

This kingdom is singular. No one here has spiritual death. They are all alike, just as wheat in the garner all together in the same place. If we can graduate to the idea and reality that truly, in the end, all of the saved will become the very type of being God is in every way it would do us good. Every law, commandment, principle, ordinance, covenant that God has and will continue to give us is for the sole purpose to prepare us for our eventual next step that leads to only one place- exaltation! There will be no partial salvations in the eternities, no partial or inferior glories that stop man from advancing to godhood. It is Gods work and glory to bring to pass mans immortality and eternal life. God will thus work with Christ until all of the saved shine forth with absolute perfection as the sun of a perfect day in Gods very kingdom.

Anyways. Its pretty simple yet complicated. Its simple on the one hand that it should be black and white yet its complicated because we have a certain foundation of doctrines that are somewhat confusing or misleading.

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12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Christ, in his ministry on earth, taught a very strict dichotomy of heaven or hell.

For the confused:
heavenhell.thumb.PNG.d1b27a9fb7505475145c9687aaacdf26.PNG

I did this with my mouse, so it isn't quite as nice as @zil's fancy fountain pen illustrations.

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10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Wait - telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are part of "hell"?

Says who?

Sure. It depends on the mean of "hell". If one means it to reference a state of damnation then anything short of exaltation is hell.

It's actually not that complicated. "Hell" is a generic word that is used differently in different places at different times.

Were you under the impression that every use of the term hell in the scriptures only referred to outer darkness or spirit prison? That strikes me as a stretch.

For at least the telestial kingdom it is explicit (D&C 76)

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

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18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Wait - telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are part of "hell"?

Says who?

I've heard it basically described this way - that those in the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are damned (to some degree, but not as much as those in perdition).  I can't go digging right now, but I think it was McConkie or Packer.

Of course, I think verse 84 quoted by TFP above refers to spirit prison, not the Telestial kingdom, and the state of these folk before receiving Telestial glory.

Further, I've heard it said that "hell" and "outer darkness" and "spirit prison" are really just temporary places for the wicked and that "perdition" is the proper term for the place / state of those who are lost forever.  Personally, I think context and recognition that the same word can mean different things is helpful in figuring out what any given word means in its given context.  It also helps to understand that the entirety of scripture, old and new, must be taken into account when trying to understand the fullness of the gospel...

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20 minutes ago, zil said:

I've heard it basically described this way - that those in the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are damned (to some degree, but not as much as those in perdition).  I can't go digging right now, but I think it was McConkie or Packer.

I'm not sure the idea needs support. Damnation is the opposite of eternal progression. It's kind of supported in the word itself. That being said, you don't have to look for McConkie.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/damnation?lang=eng

17 minutes ago, zil said:

Of course, I think verse 84 quoted by TFP above refers to spirit prison, not the Telestial kingdom,

But does it? It is an interpretation, yes. And certainly an accurate one. But the end all of it?

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9 minutes ago, eVa said:

Separated eternally?

Is this a new idea to you? The entire idea behind what the gospel is about is a means whereby we can, by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, return to be with our Father in Heaven. Isn't the NOT being with him otherwise the obvious?

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40 minutes ago, eVa said:

I remember that Tele and Terre were supposed to be more beautiful and wonderful compared to earth's current state.  How can that also be Hell?  

And they still are from what I understand.  They are also part of the Kingdom of Heaven.  However, one who is in the Telestial and in the Terestrial are also separated from the Father.  Those in the Terrestrial can be visited by the Son, but from what I've read it seems that their progression is halted.  They can no longer progress in the Kingdom, and they no longer see or visit with the Father for the rest of eternity.

The Telestial do not even get visits from the Son, but may get angelic visitors.  They also cannot advance or progress through eternity from what I understand.  They are also separated from both the Father AND the Son.

Only those in the Celestial Kingdom may progress and live with the Father. 

I think it depends on what you are using as a definition of Hell in what you regards as such. 

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I haven't read the entire thread yet just skimmed...but according to lds.org this is the definition of hell:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/hell

Basically there are 2.  Spirit prison which is temporary and then there is outer darkness which is eternal damnation.  We can add our own personal interpretation of what hell is but we need to be careful how we present it as we have numerous investigators on the site right now.  

That's the way I have always learned and understood it.  

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37 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Is this a new idea to you? The entire idea behind what the gospel is about is a means whereby we can, by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, return to be with our Father in Heaven. Isn't the NOT being with him otherwise the obvious?

Not at all, but I didn't ever connect eternal separation outside the CK, which is why I asked.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

83..."deny not" would imply accepting the Holy Spirit, correct?  

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14 minutes ago, pam said:

I haven't read the entire thread yet just skimmed...but according to lds.org this is the definition of hell:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/hell

Basically there are 2.  Spirit prison which is temporary and then there is outer darkness which is eternal damnation.  We can add our own personal interpretation of what hell is but we need to be careful how we present it as we have numerous investigators on the site right now.  

That's the way I have always learned and understood it.  

It specifically says, "Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses." Meaning other scriptures may mean other things and that there may be more even in latter-day revelation.

But you have to understand, what I'm debating against is some people's implication that the degrees of glory and our eternal assignment thereto is a false doctrine because of "clear" teachings in some other scriptures concerning only heaven and hell/salvation and damnation. My point is simply that the two concepts are not contradictory in any regard.

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7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I expect it means to exclude the Sons of Perdition.

I read 81-84 as those who are thrust down to hell include people who do not accept the gospel or have a testimony of Christ, but do accept the Holy Spirit.  Am I missing something?

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3 minutes ago, eVa said:

I read 81-84 as those who are thrust down to hell include people who do not accept the gospel or have a testimony of Christ, but do accept the Holy Spirit.  Am I missing something?

What does that mean to you: not accepting the gospel or Christ but accepting the Holy Spirit? How does that play out in your thinking?

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