women as Sunday school presidents and men as primary presidents ?


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Just now, JoCa said:

Yeap . . .the older I get and the more the world spins into decadence and away from God the more that I wonder about our "conscience".  The more that I actually tend to believe (and it does go slightly against modern Prophetic teaching, but not necessarily against scriptures), that what we call our "conscience" is really something that is taught to us; it is taught through parents, leaders, teachers and culture.  And that the Light of Christ isn't our "conscience" it could be; but I'd say our conscience is more about which spirit we are listening to.  The Spirit of God or the Spirit of the Devil.

I was going to say the same thing. It gets confusing because conscience has been compared to the light of Christ. But I believe you are correct. Most of what is conscience is taught to us, as is clearly demonstrated by extremist Islamist views and the like. The more society brainwashes society into believing that everyone is a victim, the more society's conscience screams against that victimhood...which has no bearing on reality at all.

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15 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

FWIW, George MacDonald was not a prophet.

Thank-you.

i certainly see what you are alluding to.  Though honestly, anyone can call themselves a prophet.  i don't think he ever claimed to be one.  i hope the benchmark for speaking any true statement is a bit lower than that.

i certainly could have done a better job clarifying that i do not see him as one, given the nature of this discussion - and to that end, i apologize.

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3 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Though honestly, anyone can call themselves a prophet. 

Right. But your (and my) job is simple in this regard. Find out. Period. Find out if he who calls himself prophet is, indeed, a prophet of God, and then, when we know, FOLLOW!

Our conscience can play a part in this, but the formula is plain. God gives us His gospel through prophets, we have that confirmed to us by the Holy Spirit, and then we follow or we do not to our salvation or condemnation.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@JoCa continuing with that thought: This is, imo, clearly and obviously also demonstrated by all the reaction of "conscience" concerning homosexuality.

Oh definitely; and this new conscience concerning homosexuality will eventually destroy society.  Once you go down this road of changing homosexuality from behavior to identity, then all you need to do to develop a new conscience concerning some behavior is to change it from behavior to an identity and convince enough people that it is an identity rather than a behavior.  Some really, really wicked behaviors (worse than homosexuality) are up on deck-give it 20-30 years.

Pedophilia-I'm looking at you.  Don't say it won't happen.  People look at pedophilia today with the revulsion they felt towards homosexuality 40 years ago-it is coming.  May God have mercy on us, 'cuz we are going to need it.

Edited by JoCa
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19 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So, what you're saying, is you are pitting your conscience against the word of God as given by living prophets? Your own gut feelings outweigh the pattern God established to provide us the path back to Him?

Thank-you.

If i am correct in the classification of my conscience as the Light of Christ, and you are correct in your classification of who is and is not a prophet, there would be no inconsistency.

But (and correct me if i'm wrong), your statement appears to infer inconsistency between the two, and that said inconsistency is the result of my faulty conscience. 

i'll grant that this is a distinct possibility - but hardly something established as a fact?

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24 minutes ago, JoCa said:

The hubris in this modern age is actually quite stunning.

Partially because the modern age is truly amazing. We've eradicated diseases. Babies/women no longer die at childbirth. We generally have healthier, easier jobs in comparison to our ancestors. There are fewer widespread wars. We've created amazing technology-like I mentioned before 40 years ago you wouldn't be able to complain about how bad things are on the computer.  We are SO blessed to live in todays world. 

Here's what funny. I guarantee you that 40 years ago, cranky people complained about how bad things are and how good the "good old days" were. People did this in 1900. In 1800. In 1700. In 1600. Notice a pattern? Human nature. Life is actually getting much, much better. 

Nostalgia is a funny thing. We over romanticize the past while ignoring the reasons it was terrible. We also can't comprehend how ungrateful it sounds when we (generic) complain about how bad things are today. Our ancestors would have killed to live in our world. 

I get it, maybe when I get older I'll start to complain about how bad things are, and look to the past and say "Oh, things were wonderful. Boo hoo!" Or maybe not. Hopefully not. Actually probably not, because it's a major pet peeve of mine when people do that. 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 minute ago, lostinwater said:

But (and correct me if i'm wrong), your statement appears to infer inconsistency between the two, and that said inconsistency is the result of my faulty conscience. 

If your conscience leads you away from following God's prophets then yes, it is a matter of a faulty conscience. (See the other discussion being had where I state that I, and others, believe conscience is learned and not equivalent to the Light of Christ.)

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Partially because the modern age is truly amazing. We've eradicated diseases. We've created amazing technology-like I mentioned before 40 years ago you wouldn't be able to complain about how bad things are on the computer. 

Here's what funny. I guarantee you that 40 years ago, cranky people complained about how bad things are and how good the "good old days" were. People did this in 1900. In 1800. In 1700. In 1600. Notice a pattern? Human nature. Life is actually getting much, much better. 

Are you really sure about this?? I'd like to actually see where this is documented.  People say this all the time-but it flies in the face of what the scriptures tell us about the time before the 2nd coming.

Great, technology is better-that's awesome.  But when you look at it, it is modern "convenience".  What is the real reason we are here . . .to live in "convenience"-no. We are here to learn how to be obedient to God. 

There is absolutely no way you can claim that today people are closer to God today than at any other time.  So great life is getting better in the things that don't count and worse in the things that do count.  I don't call that "progress".

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9 minutes ago, JoCa said:

Are you really sure about this?? 

Yes. 

9 minutes ago, JoCa said:

People say this all the time-

They actually don't. I see many more people on your side complaining and full of ingratitude. It's a constant thing with some religious people to complain about how bad things are today and they've bought the lie that things were better back in the "good old days".  It sickens me when religious people do this. We should be thanking God we are here today at this amazing time.  

9 minutes ago, JoCa said:

We are here to learn how to be obedient to God. 

Yup. Agree. 

9 minutes ago, JoCa said:

There is absolutely no way you can claim that today people are closer to God today than at any other time.  

How do you know? Unless you can read the souls of humans from the past you don't know this either. Nostalgia forces you to over romanticize a past that only exists in your mind. 

Billy Joel said it best. "The good old days weren't always good and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems." 

Don't take it personal @JoCa, I apologize if it sounds preachy, but it's what I believe and it's obviously something I feel passionate about. Nothing personal, I think you are a great guy with interesting posts. 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 minute ago, JoCa said:

There is absolutely no way you can claim that today people are closer to God today than at any other time.  So great life is getting better in the things that don't count and worse in the things that do count.  I don't call that "progress".

Not sure about this. We live in a time where we have the fullness of the gospel -- more revealed to more people than any other time in history. I think that both greater evil and greater righteousness come along with that. I think the amount of faithful, close to God individuals is very likely greater than other times in history. However, technology plays, if anything, a very small part in that (and only in that it provides a means of communication for that revealed knowledge.)

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think that both greater evil and greater righteousness come along with that. I think the amount of faithful, close to God individuals is very likely greater than other times in history.

If nothing else, the sheer numbers (population) require us to consider the possibility of more righteous people today than in years past, even if our percentages differ.

The other thing is, it is far easier in our day for the wicked to flaunt their wickedness far and wide at the tops of their lungs than it was in ages past.  Thus, they can skew perception to make it appear their wickedness is more widely spread and common than it actually is.  Decent people, on the other hand, tend not to make a lot of noise, so it's easier to forget they're out there, and underestimate their numbers.

I have no idea of the numbers or percentages, only that it's not so obvious as it might appear.

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30 minutes ago, Vort said:

I'd like you to answer my last question: What good are prophets? If they teach something you don't like and you ignore it because you don't like it, what's the point of having a prophet?

You can bet that the Pharisees felt deeply that Jesus was wrong and that what he preached was contrary to their (highly educated and nuanced) understanding of God's will. Did that justify them?

Honest questions.

Thank-you again.

i guess to me, it seems you are assuming that i would ignore anything i don't like.  Granted, i am a extremely flawed person, but i would like to think i would ignore only what i cannot reconcile as being right - at least most of the time.  There seems a big gap between 'don't like' and 'cannot reconcile as being right'.  

i cannot look into another person's conscience - and shouldn't pretend that i can - not even a Pharisee.  But you are right - Jesus didn't have a lot of nice things to say to, or about, them - which sort of leads me to believe they fall more into the 'ignore because i don't like, or is inconvenient' category mentioned above.  i get the feeling like they knew.  The phrase 'convicted by their own consciences', i think shows up a few times in the Gospels.

i'll readily concede your point that a prophet's words are only worth the heed we pay to them.  But your statement i think makes some assumptions about what my conscience is based off of, and who you hold to be a prophet?  

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24 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Right. But your (and my) job is simple in this regard. Find out. Period. Find out if he who calls himself prophet is, indeed, a prophet of God, and then, when we know, FOLLOW!

Our conscience can play a part in this, but the formula is plain. God gives us His gospel through prophets, we have that confirmed to us by the Holy Spirit, and then we follow or we do not to our salvation or condemnation.

Thank-you.

Yep - i think you've hit upon the crux of the issue.  We have fundamental differences here. 

You place unconditional faith in the man you believe to be a prophet.  And this is fine.

i do not share your view as to who is a prophet, and beyond that, i believe that prophets are still imperfect men - whose imperfection is, at least occasionally, reflected in the words they speak and write.

i know people don't believe this, because i didn't get the answer they did, but i did ask.  And i believe in the answer i got just as much as you believe in the one you got.

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3 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you.

Yep - i think you've hit upon the crux of the issue.  We have fundamental differences here. 

You place unconditional faith in the man you believe to be a prophet.  And this is fine.

i do not share your view as to who is a prophet, and beyond that, i believe that prophets are still imperfect men - whose imperfection is, at least occasionally, reflected in the words they speak and write.

i know people don't believe this, because i didn't get the answer they did, but i did ask.  And i believe in the answer i got just as much as you believe in the one you got.

What about Scriptures?

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46 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

You place unconditional faith in the man you believe to be a prophet.  And this is fine.

No. I do not.

46 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i do not share your view as to who is a prophet

Then....what are we discussing?

46 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

and beyond that, i believe that prophets are still imperfect men - whose imperfection is, at least occasionally, reflected in the words they speak and write.

They are imperfect men -- which is entirely irrelevant.

46 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i know people don't believe this, because i didn't get the answer they did, but i did ask.  And i believe in the answer i got just as much as you believe in the one you got.

If you don't believe the prophets are/were prophets and therefore the church isn't being/hasn't been led by God then you are of a different religion and --- okay...go worship according to the dictates of your own conscience. That is your prerogative.

The church is led by God and organizes itself by God's will. You can have all the opinion you want on that...just as any Catholic may believe the church false, any atheist may think belief in God foolish, or any Satan worshiper may believe that destruction of Christ will lead to glory. Doesn't matter a lick. God is God, and His truth remains His truth despite the corrupt worlds' views on the relativity of morality. You may kick against any pricks you so choose. That is your right under your God given agency.

If you want to pit your conscience against God's prophets then that is your right as well. But you will come to regret it someday.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

To what end? 

I can only speculate.  There are males who would do very well in primary presidencies and females who might be amazingly effective in Sunday School leadership.  So the policy (if divinely approved, of course) might open up those positions to qualified individuals who currently cannot hold them—but, as I suggest above, with some trade-offs; probably significant ones.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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6 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I can only speculate.  There are males who would do very well in primary presidencies and females who might be amazingly effective in Sunday School leadership.  So the policy (if divinely approved, of course) might open up those positions to qualified individuals who currently cannot hold them—but, as I suggest above, with some trade-offs; probably significant ones.

The implication, of course, being that God cannot qualify who he calls? ;)

I know...snarky...but.......

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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The implication, of course, being that God cannot qualify who he calls? ;)

I know...snarky...but.......

Mais, oui.  But not all people are equally qualified. 

It’d be interesting to get to the root of that quotation and find out where it originated from.  But I suspect the context is less directed to the notion that all people have equal ability and potential in a given calling; and more towards the idea that it isn’t for us to undermine or question the credentials of a ward officer who had been duly called and set apart.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

How do you know? Unless you can read the souls of humans from the past you don't know this either. Nostalgia forces you to over romanticize a past that only exists in your mind.

Regarding we are closer to God today, then other generations. You only have to look back to two times in scripture to see that there were people who were much closer to God then we are today: City of Enoch and Nephites and Lamanites after Christ came for a short period of time. We have not as a people come anywhere near what they achieved.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No. I do not.

Then....what are we discussing?

They are imperfect men -- which is entirely irrelevant.

If you don't believe the prophets are/were prophets and therefore the church isn't being/hasn't been led by God then you are of a different religion and --- okay...go worship according to the dictates of your own conscience. That is your prerogative.

The church is led by God and organizes itself by God's will. You can have all the opinion you want on that...just as any Catholic may believe the church false, any atheist may think belief in God foolish, or any Satan worshiper may believe that destruction of Christ will lead to glory. Doesn't matter a lick. God is God, and His truth remains His truth despite the corrupt worlds' views on the relativity of morality. You may kick against any pricks you so choose. That is your right under your God given agency.

If you want to pit your conscience against God's prophets then that is your right as well. But you will come to regret it someday.

Thank-you

First, allow me to apologize if i put words in your mouth.  i thought that was how you felt about the Mormon prophet(s).

As to what we are discussing - i have rambled.  My original intent was to convey the idea to the OP that perhaps much of what feels to her (and and many others)  like the marginalization of women in church and religion in general may have it's roots in Biblical references - and that it is my belief that said references may be more a reflection of the time and the imperfect aspects of the person talking than the mind and will of God.  And then it morphed into a discussion about prophets, who is a prophet, conscience, absolutism, etc.,

i will have to disagree on some of your statements about me - but i see where you are coming from (i lived on that side of the fence for a long time), and respect your passion.

Edited by lostinwater
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10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I can only speculate.  There are males who would do very well in primary presidencies and females who might be amazingly effective in Sunday School leadership.  So the policy (if divinely approved, of course) might open up those positions to qualified individuals who currently cannot hold them—but, as I suggest above, with some trade-offs; probably significant ones.

This made me think of President Eyering's comment during the priesthood session last conference:

 

"The second lesson is that the Lord’s work is not just to solve problems; it is to build people. So as you walk with Him in priesthood service, you may find that sometimes what seems like the most efficient solution is not the Lord’s preferred solution because it does not allow people to grow. If you listen, He will teach you His ways. Remember that God’s work and glory is not simply to run an effective organization; it is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). This is, after all, why He gives His priesthood authority to flawed mortals like you and me and invites us to participate in His work. Our progress is His work!"

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9 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Regarding we are closer to God today, then other generations. You only have to look back to two times in scripture to see that there were people who were much closer to God then we are today: City of Enoch and Nephites and Lamanites after Christ came for a short period of time. We have not as a people come anywhere near what they achieved.

Of course the idea depends on a few things: Who is "we"? Who are "other generations". Can you take specific examples, as you have, and apply them en masse as "other generations"?

Mind you, I don't disagree with you...If you take the entire history of time there are certainly groups of people in certain places who reached a level of righteousness that those who are righteous in our day haven't, overall, ascended to (punny? Ascended? City of Enoch? Haha?). But if you took a graph and charted righteous people I suspect that, despite spikes here and there, the overall trend would be upward in these latter days, as would the overall trend of evil.

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