Hatred of Christians in America?

[anatess2]

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's moral based.  And morals are from feelings.  The very right to life itself is not a fact. Why shouldn't we be able to kill the distasteful? Factually? 

Be careful with that question.  There's actually people who publicly campaign that we should be able to.

[Traveler]

58 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

There was a great mainstream media article highlighting the effectiveness of Christian relief organizations, in the aftermath of the TX and FL hurricanes. Convoy of Hope, the Methodists, and the Adventists got specific mentions--not just for their good work, but for coordinating with each other. It can be found in the September 10th edition of USA Today.

I am aware of charitable relief organizations being religiously biased.   What I was wondering – and do not know is if Christians in general choose to work in the field of first responders.  My experience in the military is that there are some but mostly people of faith seem to gravitate to other things for a life’s work.  For myself I found a lot of religious discrimination in the military.  It was kind of weird – because I could get out of “KP” and other things on Sunday by claiming to want to go to church.  Many would volunteer to go with me but few actually made it to church.

It also seems to me that first responders (police, firemen and paramedics) tend towards not being religious – and those that are religious somewhat not all that popular at work.  In my chosen profession, I do run into devout religious individuals – but such are very few and far in-between.  It does that LDS are more represented than most. But even among those LDS I encounter many express some intolerance from others of their religion that criticize their stand on evolution and science in general.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am aware of charitable relief organizations being religiously biased.   What I was wondering – and do not know is if Christians in general choose to work in the field of first responders.  My experience in the military is that there are some but mostly people of faith seem to gravitate to other things for a life’s work.  For myself I found a lot of religious discrimination in the military.  It was kind of weird – because I could get out of “KP” and other things on Sunday by claiming to want to go to church.  Many would volunteer to go with me but few actually made it to church.

It also seems to me that first responders (police, firemen and paramedics) tend towards not being religious – and those that are religious somewhat not all that popular at work.  In my chosen profession, I do run into devout religious individuals – but such are very few and far in-between.  It does that LDS are more represented than most. But even among those LDS I encounter many express some intolerance from others of their religion that criticize their stand on evolution and science in general.

 

The Traveler

My experience is different but that's probably because of where I live.  Baptist belt and all that.  Lots of practicing Christians here all represented in the workplace including first responders  and military.  Intolerance to religion is present everywhere too.  I mean, I'm Christian and I express frustration on the deadness of downtown here because of the strong grip of southern baptists in city council who reject everything that attracts people to downtown.  How much more for the non-religious.

Edited October 10, 2017 by anatess2

[Traveler]

29 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Be careful with that question.  There's actually people who publicly campaign that we should be able to.

In general humans tend to be rather unkind to anything they perceive to be a threat to their existence.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

Just now, Traveler said:

In general humans tend to be rather unkind to anything they perceive to be a threat to their existence.

 

The Traveler

The dot in the center of the yin and the yang.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's moral based.  And morals are from feelings.  The very right to life itself is not a fact. Why shouldn't we be able to kill the distasteful? Factually? 

That argument seems to prove too much; for if there’s virtually no conservative fact-based argument against my killing people I find distasteful; there’s even less of an emotional argument against my doing so; since it’s my emotion that leads me to want to kill the guy in the first place.  (Yeah, you can argue that if I start killing people all willy-nilly then either I go to jail, which makes me sad; or everyone else acts similarly and society breaks down, which makes us all sad—but the crux of the argument is still based in reason/history/fact—to wit, the fact of law, or the reasonably foreseeable consequences of human behavior.)  

My experience is that in the policy realm, outside of a few narrow areas, conservatives are primarily interested in what works; whereas progressives are primarily interested in what feels right/fair.  As you say, maybe that’s a more current trend—conservative discourse becomes more secular, while progressivism morphs into a religion of its own.

But returning to the assertion above—as a theist, I would dispute the suggestion that morals come from feelings.  Feelings—viz, the Light of Christ—are merely the means of communication whereby God tries to tell us what is moral and what is not.  In the absence of a divinely-imposed code of behavior, “morals” seem to reduce to a social code that serves to maximize a few commonly accepted “goods” (stability, safety, material prosperity, etc) for the greatest number of people.

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

My experience is that in the policy realm, outside of a few narrow areas, conservatives are primarily interested in what works; whereas progressives are primarily interested in what feels right/fair.  As you say, maybe that’s a more current trend—conservative discourse becomes more secular, while progressivism morphs into a religion of its own.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  I'll posit and see how we can reconcile - Conservatives are primarily interested in preserving what works, whereas progressives are primarily interested in correcting what doesn't work.  Because religion has had its terrible moments, the progressives have been able to point to certain religious practices as things that doesn't work and in that battle, conservatives start letting go of religious-based laws that is not a winning argument with the progressives replacing them with the same principles through a secular application.  Progressives continue to find fault with other things including things that are not faulty...

Edited October 10, 2017 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

19 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

My experience is that in the policy realm, outside of a few narrow areas, conservatives are primarily interested in what works; whereas progressives are primarily interested in what feels right/fair. 

This feels right.

[The Folk Prophet]

20 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But returning to the assertion above—as a theist, I would dispute the suggestion that morals come from feelings.  Feelings—viz, the Light of Christ—are merely the means of communication whereby God tries to tell us what is moral and what is not.  In the absence of a divinely-imposed code of behavior, “morals” seem to reduce to a social code that serves to maximize a few commonly accepted “goods” (stability, safety, material prosperity, etc) for the greatest number of people.

You do realize, of course, that getting into the 'where morality stems from' debate is age old, one of the cores of philosophy in general, and probably requires greater minds than ours to crack.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

It also seems to me that first responders (police, firemen and paramedics) tend towards not being religious

They see the absolute worst in humanity. I can't blame them for not being religious. That said, I've read of holocaust victims whose faith in God kept them alive during literal Hell on earth.They also saw the worst of humanity. So you never know. 

[lostinwater]

30 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

They see the absolute worst in humanity. I can't blame them for not being religious. That said, I've read of holocaust victims whose faith in God kept them alive during literal Hell on earth.They also saw the worst of humanity. So you never know. 

Agree.  Can't sneer at someone's pace up a mountain without knowing what kind of pack they are hauling.  i think we'll be surprised at what we find when all the pain and anger and horror and bravado are wiped away from our souls.  The people who looked like failures may be the strongest ones of all - and the ones who looked like they had it all together may actually be whited sepulchers.  Of course, it's also possible things will be close to what they appear to be.  

[Anddenex]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 I have not found anywhere in scripture where it says we (anyone) will be judged for the prayers we utter rather than by the things we do.  Saying you will pray for someone in need without extending help – I believe is the attitude of the Pharisees that Jesus criticized in his parable of the Good Samaritan with the examples of the priest and the Levite going out of their way to avoid assisting the man in need.

I would say we are judged by both. "For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God. And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such."

Source: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/7.6,8-9,12,16?lang=eng&clang=eng#p5

However, the intent of this verse might emphasize praying without action is not profitable. In this case, then it confirms more what you are saying.

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You do realize, of course, that getting into the 'where morality stems from' debate is age old, one of the cores of philosophy in general, and probably requires greater minds than ours to crack.

It’s funny you should say that, because in my earlier post I actually composed a tangential paragraph about whether morality/good and evil was independent of God, or defined by God.  I cut it out for the sake of pithiness and because it didn’t seem quite on-point. 

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I'm not sure I agree with this.  I'll posit and see how we can reconcile - Conservatives are primarily interested in preserving what works, whereas progressives are primarily interested in correcting what doesn't work.  Because religion has had its terrible moments, the progressives have been able to point to certain religious practices as things that doesn't work and in that battle, conservatives start letting go of religious-based laws that is not a winning argument with the progressives replacing them with the same principles through a secular application.  Progressives continue to find fault with other things including things that are not faulty...

I can agree with that, though it seems like in practice progressives don’t tend to take a lot of time to think about why things are the way they are (whether functional or not) before going about trying to change the world.  Or, more precisely, they often develop intellectually lazy explanations (racism!  privilege! oppression!) that allow them an end-run around careful, fact-based analysis.  

But either way, progressive idealism and a certain degree of isolation from “the real world”, seems to typically lead them to demand that society plunge headlong into solutions that are not evidence-based and, more often than not, exacerbate the problems they were supposed to solve.

[Lindy]

13 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm really beginning to wonder if all of this isn't being stoked by the election of POTUS, and a visceral hatred towards him and all the "deplorables" who selected him. Perhaps the thinking is that if so many Americans are that wrong it's time to destroy the emblems, symbols and ceremonies.

They have already started..... They are trying as hard as they can to destroy them.

[NightSG]

8 hours ago, MormonGator said:

They see the absolute worst in humanity. I can't blame them for not being religious. That said, I've read of holocaust victims whose faith in God kept them alive during literal Hell on earth.They also saw the worst of humanity. So you never know. 

Around here, the ones in charge are usually active in their churches.  I suspect its because the others tend to burn out and/or just plain snap long before they get to that level of seniority.  The usual pattern seems to be the family falling apart, then the individual either has a psychotic break that pretty much kills their career instantly (You lose a lot of the community's trust after a drunken, underwear-clad, armed standoff with state troopers in your front yard.) or sinks into depression (and usually addiction) that kills their career slowly.

Edited October 11, 2017 by NightSG

[anatess2]

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I can agree with that, though it seems like in practice progressives don’t tend to take a lot of time to think about why things are the way they are (whether functional or not) before going about trying to change the world.  Or, more precisely, they often develop intellectually lazy explanations (racism!  privilege! oppression!) that allow them an end-run around careful, fact-based analysis.  

But either way, progressive idealism and a certain degree of isolation from “the real world”, seems to typically lead them to demand that society plunge headlong into solutions that are not evidence-based and, more often than not, exacerbate the problems they were supposed to solve.

That's not a result of progressivism, in my opinion.  That's the result of powerful people with a political agenda that has permeated positions of influence in our society.  It's not just in the US either.  This Globalism "movement" is an orchestrated direction that has been in place for decades after Communism got squashed worldwide and especially after the Socialist economies started to fold.

Conservatives don't think it's fact-based because they, by conservative principle, don't hold loyalty to people but loyalty to ideology.  But, the Globalist do have their "facts" and they are backed up by big think tanks and scientists and the legacy media.  I mean, it's hard to question Bill Nye, the Science Guy, when you grew up with him.  Conservatives don't hold loyalty to Bill Nye, though, rather they hold loyalty to actual science.  But the psychology of politics points to compassionate people leaning progressive (emotional politics) whereas the pragmatic people lean conservative.  How many liberals got moved by Jimmy Kimmel's tearful support of Obamacare with the story of his child?  Tons.  Conservatives, not so much.  Their compassion for the child doesn't change Obamacare math.  The Globalists know this, so they work overtime to make fuzzy math unquestionable (like "98% of scientists agree that...") while also working overtime on emotional politics ("you're killing the planet") because it's an easy way to weaponize compassion... and voila!  You got a winning global platform...  Until Gen Z got "woke".

Edited October 11, 2017 by anatess2

[mordorbund]

https://xkcd.com/1901/

[pwrfrk]

On 10/4/2017 at 1:13 AM, prisonchaplain said:

“We’re past ‘thoughts and prayers,’ declares some politicians. A couple of them even refused to join a moment of silence for victims of the Las Vegas shooting. Similarly, in discussing the NFL kneeling controversy, one commentator defended the protesters by saying Christians were hypocrites, because we kneel in church all the time. Where did this relatively recent anti-religious tone and content come from? Why the vitriol—especially against Christians? I’ve always considered those I disagree with, whether about politics, social issues, or religion, to be loyal Americans. Increasingly, I see them as folks who may love America, but who might really hate me. How sad.

I really do not feel like reading 6+ pages of replies, so with that said....

The politicians said what? about prayer???  Uh, politics and religion don't usually mix well.  But then we start going off into another realm when we talk about Christianity.  Who are Christians?  What are Christian views?  What is defined as Christian?  IMO Christianity is way too broad to paint with a single brush.  At the college I am attending the Muslims have shown far more respect for the victims of the Vegas shooting than the Christians have.  You remember Islam.  The religion where they believe (allegedly) that it's "ok to kill all Christians".  All I can say is "hmmm".

[Bad Karma]

On 10/4/2017 at 12:13 AM, prisonchaplain said:

“We’re past ‘thoughts and prayers,’ declares some politicians. A couple of them even refused to join a moment of silence for victims of the Las Vegas shooting. Similarly, in discussing the NFL kneeling controversy, one commentator defended the protesters by saying Christians were hypocrites, because we kneel in church all the time. Where did this relatively recent anti-religious tone and content come from? Why the vitriol—especially against Christians? I’ve always considered those I disagree with, whether about politics, social issues, or religion, to be loyal Americans. Increasingly, I see them as folks who may love America, but who might really hate me. How sad.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! -Isaiah 5:20

[prisonchaplain]

11 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

I really do not feel like reading 6+ pages of replies, so with that said....

The politicians said what? about prayer???  Uh, politics and religion don't usually mix well.  But then we start going off into another realm when we talk about Christianity.  Who are Christians?  What are Christian views?  What is defined as Christian?  IMO Christianity is way too broad to paint with a single brush.  At the college I am attending the Muslims have shown far more respect for the victims of the Vegas shooting than the Christians have.  You remember Islam.  The religion where they believe (allegedly) that it's "ok to kill all Christians".  All I can say is "hmmm".

To answer your first several questions, I'll simply repeat that politicians have always respected the broad spirituality of America (which is 70% self-identified as Christian) by saying "our thoughts and prayers are with the victims," in the aftermath of tragedies. That some refused to this time--and made a point of saying that "thoughts and prayers" were meaningless, comes across as an intentional and targeted slight.

So, how did Christians not respect the victims in Las Vegas? And, how was it that the Muslims showed respect? I can't even guess on how you mean this.

[pwrfrk]

At school I watched a group of kids known to be Muslim express sadness and offer prayer for the benefit of the victims.  Havn't seen any Christians do that yet.  But then, what I saw is only minuscule to the entire school.  I know it impressed me. 

[Traveler]

@prisonchaplain I have been thinking about this – and I have had two thoughts:

First – I believe that in the last days that the world will be divided into two great camps – in essence those that stand for good and those that stand against good.  Part of standing for good; I believe, will involve standing with others for good.  I do not think that anyone can stand for good by themselves.  Also in order to stand for good - one must give up personal preferences and accept the assistance of G-d.  Since I believe that G-d has restored his kingdom in these last days – I do not think anyone can hope to stand for good and not accept his restored kingdom.  This may not mean that everyone needs to be baptized LDS but I do not believe that being critical or anti towards the restoration (for example critical of the Book of Mormon as a witness of Christ) will be helpful. 

I also believe that as things progress in these last days that the attitude of the world toward any “Christian” churches will turn into life threatening conditions.  And this leads into the second thought:

Second – I believe that the percussion of those that follow Christ will reach levels never before seen and that only by divine power will the righteous survive.   I realize that may think that good Christians will be "raptured" and not have to endure any hardships – those that hold onto that thought will not last long when the hardships of percussion threaten them and their beliefs.  Many (close to 50%) of the LDS did not last through the trail when my ancestors were forced to leave the USA for what was then the Spanish Mexican territories of the west.  Mostly the Mormons were forced to flee by “Christian” elements in power, that considered Christianity defined by the Trinity.  I honestly do not believe that “Christianity” will be cleansed of it past by any less than what they inflicted on others when they had power to do so.

I guess what I am saying – I expect things to get a lot worse – especially for those that keep the commandments and gospel of Christ and are willing to give their lives in the service of G-d and their fellow men.

 

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I just completed an excellent conference, by Acton Institute, entitled "The Church and the Common Good." The take-aways were:

1. When the "pagans" are lamenting that all evils that befall society are the fault of Christians...when they repeatedly cry out "Christians to the lions!" (as was common during the first 3 centuries of our faith), we had better be able to respond by saying, "Do not throw us to the lions. We are good citizens. We work hard. We pay our taxes. We benefit you!"

2. We should continue our efforts at public engagement, through academically rigorous work, through political involvement (sans triumphalism or theocratic intent).

3. We should continue our efforts at legal engagement, through religious liberty cases.

4. Those of us who do believe in the rapture (Hey, I'm 'rapture-ready!') do well to remember that there are so many small-t tribulations that beset believers (N. Korea, the Sudan, so much of the Middle East, etc.), and so no, we'll not be caught flat-footed when troubles arise. 

[laronius]

23 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I just completed an excellent conference, by Acton Institute, entitled "The Church and the Common Good." The take-aways were:

1. When the "pagans" are lamenting that all evils that befall society are the fault of Christians...when they repeatedly cry out "Christians to the lions!" (as was common during the first 3 centuries of our faith), we had better be able to respond by saying, "Do not throw us to the lions. We are good citizens. We work hard. We pay our taxes. We benefit you!"

2. We should continue our efforts at public engagement, through academically rigorous work, through political involvement (sans triumphalism or theocratic intent).

3. We should continue our efforts at legal engagement, through religious liberty cases.

4. Those of us who do believe in the rapture (Hey, I'm 'rapture-ready!') do well to remember that there are so many small-t tribulations that beset believers (N. Korea, the Sudan, so much of the Middle East, etc.), and so no, we'll not be caught flat-footed when troubles arise. 

I think this philosophy is important for multiple reasons. First of all, there is no wilderness for us to escape into. Both in the Bible and the Book of Mormon and even in our modern LDS Church history when the righteous were persecuted they simply fled into a new land. That isn't possible anymore. So we have to make the best out of the situation we are in. Secondly, the evil in the world is so vocal that many good people don't dare to speak out because they feel they are in the minority while in many instances that is not the case. They simply need someone to rally around, whether it is on the national level or on their local PTA board. We cannot afford to relegate ourselves to the silent majority status. Thirdly, as the world grows darker we need to continue to hold up our light for people to see. As society becomes more polarized those who have remained on the sidelines will be forced to "take sides" and we need to be out in the open showcasing the virtues of our beliefs to help them make the right decision.