prisonchaplain

Hatred of Christians in America?

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“We’re past ‘thoughts and prayers,’ declares some politicians. A couple of them even refused to join a moment of silence for victims of the Las Vegas shooting. Similarly, in discussing the NFL kneeling controversy, one commentator defended the protesters by saying Christians were hypocrites, because we kneel in church all the time. Where did this relatively recent anti-religious tone and content come from? Why the vitriol—especially against Christians? I’ve always considered those I disagree with, whether about politics, social issues, or religion, to be loyal Americans. Increasingly, I see them as folks who may love America, but who might really hate me. How sad.

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I think it's a consequence of the continued destruction of the family. As we see more and more people raised in faithless, chaotic households it leads to a sharp increase in anti religious thoughts and behaivor. At this point, I bet a good chunk of people are several generations removed from anyone who had a solid testimony of the Savior, and being raised with either a complete absense of moral teaching or constantly shifting morals leads to this behaivor. I've run into this anti religious vitriol even amongst family and friends who know me very well and should know better. I find it sad as well.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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5 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

“We’re past ‘thoughts and prayers,’ declares some politicians. A couple of them even refused to join a moment of silence for victims of the Las Vegas shooting. Similarly, in discussing the NFL kneeling controversy, one commentator defended the protesters by saying Christians were hypocrites, because we kneel in church all the time. Where did this relatively recent anti-religious tone and content come from? Why the vitriol—especially against Christians? I’ve always considered those I disagree with, whether about politics, social issues, or religion, to be loyal Americans. Increasingly, I see them as folks who may love America, but who might really hate me. How sad.

Quote

And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

2 Nephi 32:8

Is it really a surprise that someone who believes "We're past...prayer" hates Christians?

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Let's look at the current President of the United States.  He has been married three times.  The first divorce was caused by adultery with the woman who would become wife number 2.  He has been known to be extremely disrespectful of women.  He mocks the disabled.  He disrespects American Veterans and Heroes (such as John McCain).  This is who the people of America choose to be their president.

However, this is only the latest of a downward spiral of the morality of Presidents the US has been choosing recently.  They had two presidents prior that admitted to trying Marijuana.  The one before that cheated of his wife WHILE IN THE OVAL OFFICE itself. 

This trend is representative of the overall trend of the US morality itself.  As they People of the US move further and further from morality and the Law of the Lord, we will see more and more of them identify the Lord as their enemy.  As enemies of the Lord, is it any surprise that they would also be enemies of those who follow the Lord (aka...Christians).  In fact, if the Book of Revelations is any indicator, as well as other prophets that foretold of these times, we know that their numbers will get larger and more fierce. 

We can feel sadness at the way the world is going, but at the same time we can rejoice, because as the signs become more apparent and the world becomes more as predicted, it means that for us, the faithful, the time appointed for the Lord to return and rule is coming closer than ever before.

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When a tragedy like this occurs, the conservative voices offering "thoughts and prayers" are often also the ones who resist any reasonable effort to prevent future tragedies. Some of these guys offering "thoughts and prayers" support legalized silencers, high capacity magazines, and decreased health coverage for people with mental illnesses. It makes those thoughts and prayers ring very hollow when they refuse to work towards solutions. Those of us who aren't religious view prayer as an empty gesture unless it's backed up with actions.  

I'm not saying that the vilification of the religious is justified. Just trying to explain where it's probably coming from.

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42 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Let's look at the current President of the United States.  He has been married three times.  The first divorce was caused by adultery with the woman who would become wife number 2.  He has been known to be extremely disrespectful of women.  He mocks the disabled.  He disrespects American Veterans and Heroes (such as John McCain).  This is who the people of America choose to be their president.

However, this is only the latest of a downward spiral of the morality of Presidents the US has been choosing recently. 

That, of course, is a lot of Fake News.  He is not especially disrespectful of women, he did not mock the disabled and he doesn't disrespect American Veterans and Heroes.  John McCain deserves to be disrespected not because he's an American Veteran and Hero but because he's a corrupt piece of Congressional garbage who has used his POW status to sell his soul.

Thomas Jefferson was an adulterer, JFK was fooling around with Marilyn Monroe.  And Bill Clinton is a rapist.  People have been choosing immoral people for ages.  We don't elect politicians for their sins.  We elect politicians for their ability to keep government from usurping power it shouldn't have and to exercise wisdom with the power they do have.

From the election of 1800:  (under a Jefferson presidency), “[m]urder, robbery, rape, adultery, and incest will be openly taught and practiced.” - Connecticut Courant

Edited by anatess2

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30 minutes ago, Godless said:

When a tragedy like this occurs, the conservative voices offering "thoughts and prayers" are often also the ones who resist any reasonable effort to prevent future tragedies. Some of these guys offering "thoughts and prayers" support legalized silencers, high capacity magazines, and decreased health coverage for people with mental illnesses. It makes those thoughts and prayers ring very hollow when they refuse to work towards solutions. Those of us who aren't religious view prayer as an empty gesture unless it's backed up with actions.  

I'm not saying that the vilification of the religious is justified. Just trying to explain where it's probably coming from.

Godless, I think there may actually be room here for a discussion about—say—bump stocks.  But when we start going off about specific “solutions” that clearly wouldn’t have prevented or mitigated the incident precipitating the discussion, it just looks like political opportunism.  

I’m sure I don’t need to tell you this, given your military background.  But for the benefit of others:  Silencers don’t make you stealthy; trained and prepared shooters can swap out magazines with barely a pause; and in this case, no one had any idea (and AFAIK it still hasn’t been firmly established) that the shooter had mental health issues. (c.f. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10/03/d33edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html?nid&utm_term=.d6f254757e1d)

So the problem isn’t just that people are frustrated with one side’s stonewalling; it’s that the other side is presenting false solutions and then demagoguing anyone who won’t hop on their political bandwagon. 

But I do agree with @JohnsonJones that Trump has been a big factor in taking that kind of demagoguery mainstream.  And while dishonesty in politicians is par for the course, the Trumpian variant of “who are you gonna believe?  Me, or your own lyin’ eyes” in-your-face-ism has nudged America as a whole into a brave new world of political discourse.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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27 minutes ago, Godless said:

When a tragedy like this occurs, the conservative voices offering "thoughts and prayers" are often also the ones who resist any reasonable effort to prevent future tragedies. Some of these guys offering "thoughts and prayers" support legalized silencers, high capacity magazines, and decreased health coverage for people with mental illnesses. It makes those thoughts and prayers ring very hollow when they refuse to work towards solutions. Those of us who aren't religious view prayer as an empty gesture unless it's backed up with actions.  

I'm not saying that the vilification of the religious is justified. Just trying to explain where it's probably coming from.

This is PRIMUM EXEMPLUM of the "muh feels" politics of today's American liberal and the main reason why I can't identify as one.  Today's American Liberal as represented by the Democrat Party peddles the DISGUSTING propaganda that IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THEIR STUPID SOLUTIONS then YOU MUST BE DOING NOTHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM.

This is the politics of Guilt Trip that the Democrat Party is running on.  And frankly, the Democrat Party needs to be stomped all the way until it ceases to exist.

 

Edited by anatess2

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39 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Godless, I think there may actually be room here for a discussion about—say—bump stocks.  But when we start going off about specific “solutions” that clearly wouldn’t have prevented or mitigated the incident precipitating the discussion,it just looks like political opportunism.  

I’m sure I don’t need to tell you this, given your military background.  But for the benefit of others:  Silencers don’t make you stealthy; trained and prepared shooters can swap out magazines with barely a pause; and in this case, no one had any idea (and it still hasn’t been firmly established) that the shooter had mental health issues.

The solutions we want to talk about aren't just about Vegas. We've been talking about these things since Sandy Hook, Pulse, and San Bernardino. The silencer and magazine issues have some merit. Yes, a skilled shooter can overcome those sorts of obstacles. But if we can stop the effeciency of a few unskilled shooters, then doesn't that make the issues worth considering at the very least? Heck, one fairly incompetent terrorist tried and failed to blow up an airplane with a shoe, and now everyone has to take their shoes off at the airport even though no one has ever been killed by a shoe in this country. 

As for mental health, has it occured to you that the reason so many people with mental illnesses are undiagnosed is because of the cost of health care in this country? Heck, before I got on my wife's insurance there were multiple instances when I thought I may have broken a finger or a toe at work, but I didn't bother to go to a doctor to find out because I couldn't afford it. I think it's reasonable to think that there are people out there treating mental illness the same way. Therapy and psychiatric help aren't viable options for a lot of people in this country. 

Quote

So the problem isn’t just that people are frustrated with one side’s stonewalling; it’s that the other side is presenting false solutions and then demagoguing anyone who won’t hop on their political bandwagon.

There's stonewalling and then there's debate. What you and I are doing now is debate. What @anatess2 is doing in the above post is stonewalling. We've heard too many times in recent years "This isn't the time to talk about this". Then the issue grows cold until the next shooting. I don't expect the right to jump on board with all of my ideas, but let's talk about them at the very least. Because shrugging our shoulders and saying "whelp, nothing we could do" isn't working. It's time go get ahead of the issue of violence in this country rather than chasing it down every time tragedy strikes. If you're tired of "false solutions" from the left, then I'd love to hear some from the right. But it seems like their solution is always more guns. There has to be a better solution, right?

Edited by Godless

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55 minutes ago, Godless said:

When a tragedy like this occurs, the conservative voices offering "thoughts and prayers" are often also the ones who resist any reasonable effort to prevent future tragedies. Some of these guys offering "thoughts and prayers" support legalized silencers, high capacity magazines, and decreased health coverage for people with mental illnesses. It makes those thoughts and prayers ring very hollow when they refuse to work towards solutions. Those of us who aren't religious view prayer as an empty gesture unless it's backed up with actions. 

The fact that "these guys" have a different idea than you of what the solution is doesn't give you the right to question their morality any more than you would accept the claim that liberals are just lazy and want free handouts.

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

The fact that "these guys" have a different idea than you of what the solution is doesn't give you the right to question their morality any more than you would accept the claim that liberals are just lazy and want free handouts.

The conservative solution, as far as I can tell, is typically "prayers and more guns". Other than that, conservatives tend to be pretty quiet about solutions during times like these. Like I told JAG, if you have other ideas to offer, I'd love to hear and discuss them. I'm not claiming to have the answers, but sometimes it feels like the effort to find those answers is very one-sided. 

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27 minutes ago, Godless said:

There's stonewalling and then there's debate. What you and I are doing now is debate. What @anatess2 is doing in the above post is stonewalling. We've heard too many times in recent years "This isn't the time to talk about this". Then the issue grows cold until the next shooting. I don't expect the right to jump on board with all of my ideas, but let's talk about them at the very least. Because shrugging our shoulders and saying "whelp, nothing we could do" isn't working. It's time go get ahead of the issue of violence in this country rather than chasing it down every time tragedy strikes. If you're tired of "false solutions" from the left, then I'd love to hear some from the right. But it seems like their solution is always more guns. There has to be a better solution, right?

Really, Godless?  This is your idea of debate:  "When a tragedy like this occurs, the conservative voices offering "thoughts and prayers" are often also the ones who resist any reasonable effort to prevent future tragedies."?

Gun control has been proposed and shut down plenty of times on the Congress floor.  That is because, guns IS NOT THE PROBLEM in the same manner that the car is not the problem with vehicular homicide.  But yeah, that would be stonewalling according to the politics of the left who are led by a bunch of Communists.

Solutions from the Right - Tax Reform, Immigration Control,  Drug Control, Reduction of Regulation, Reduction of the Welfare State, Pro-Life, anti Gay Marriage - all policies that reduce poverty, makes stronger families, and increasing value of life.  All basic ingredients to forming a grievance-free citizenry.

Solutions from the Left - "the minorities are oppresed", "cops are racists", "college males are rapists", "the military are murderers", free abortions, gay marriage, increase taxes, regulate the crap out of every money-making business, gun control.  How does this reduce the desire of people to kill other people?

Edited by anatess2

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Just now, Godless said:

The conservative solution, as far as I can tell, is typically "prayers and more guns". Other than that, conservatives tend to be pretty quiet about solutions during times like these. Like I told JAG, if you have other ideas to offer, I'd love to hear and discuss them. I'm not claiming to have the answers, but sometimes it feels like the effort to find those answers is very one-sided. 

It is unreasonable, in my opinion, to propose unrelated, meaningless solutions simply because an obvious one isn't at hand. When you or someone suggests after a tragedy of this sort that we need stricter silencer laws and someone like me responds by saying, "How would that have helped? That makes no sense." And you respond by claiming that I therefore don't care about the victims I cry foul.

I don't know, personally, what the solution is. But I know the legalization or not of silencers doesn't have anything to do with it.

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Really, Godless?  This is your idea of debate:  "When a tragedy like this occurs, the conservative voices offering "thoughts and prayers" are often also the ones who resist any reasonable effort to prevent future tragedies."?

And so far you've proven me right. 

Gun control has been proposed and shut down plenty of times on the Congress floor.  That is because, gun control IS NOT THE PROBLEM. 

If gun control isn't the problem, then what is? Serious question. I want to know what you think is the cause of attacks like this and what your ideas are to try to tackle it. I took my jabs at the right, yes, but then I offered some ideas for discussion that I think could help moving forward. Now it's your turn. 

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3 minutes ago, Godless said:

And so far you've proven me right. 

So far, you've proven to be just another "muh feels" American liberal.

 

3 minutes ago, Godless said:

If gun control isn't the problem, then what is? Serious question. I want to know what you think is the cause of attacks like this and what your ideas are to try to tackle it. I took my jabs at the right, yes, but then I offered some ideas for discussion that I think could help moving forward. Now it's your turn. 

PEOPLE WANTING TO KILL PEOPLE IS THE PROBLEM.  DUH.

@mirkwood has a cart full of firearms.  Tell me how many mass shootings do you think mirkwood has been in and is about to engage in?

Now, if you would read my entire post above you'd see that the Right has the right solutions to the problem.

Edited by anatess2

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10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It is unreasonable, in my opinion, to propose unrelated, meaningless solutions simply because an obvious one isn't at hand. When you or someone suggests after a tragedy of this sort that we need stricter silencer laws and someone like me responds by saying, "How would that have helped? That makes no sense." And you respond by claiming that I therefore don't care about the victims I cry foul.

I don't know, personally, what the solution is. But I know the legalization or not of silencers doesn't have anything to do with it.

A week ago no one was talking about bump stocks. I don't think it's unreasonable to try to get ahead of the next potential threat while reacting to past events. We did that all the time in Iraq. We were constantly reacting to insurgents attacks and adjusting our tactics accordingly, but we were also proactive in trying to stay one step ahead of them. 

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Morality.

It astounds me that leftist ideology pushes relative morality and then seems oblivious to the consequences of relative morality.

If that's the case, then why do countries far more liberal than us have fewer tragedies like this? Why is it that the US, a country that is arguably more religious and less liberal on the whole than most other Western nations, has so many more mass shootings?

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Just now, Godless said:

A week ago no one was talking about bump stocks. I don't think it's unreasonable to try to get ahead of the next potential threat while reacting to past events. We did that all the time in Iraq. We were constantly reacting to insurgents attacks and adjusting our tactics accordingly, but we were also proactive in trying to stay one step ahead of them. 

I don't disagree. It is the proposal that various gun control measures -- like limiting silencers -- are the best means to get ahead of potential threats that I question. (Note: I do not object to all gun control initiatives). What I do object to is the idea that my belief in that matter means I must not care about the victims or the potential threats. I don't think gun control is, frankly, doable, however. There are something like 300 million guns in the US. Trying to take them away would literally cause civil war. Beyond that, limiting clip sizes and the like is not going to do anything to curb incidents like what happened in Vegas.

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2 minutes ago, Godless said:

A week ago no one was talking about bump stocks. 

Correction:  A week ago, the media was not talking about bump stocks.

My 14-year-old knows about bump stocks before Las Vegas.

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6 minutes ago, Godless said:

If that's the case, then why do countries far more liberal than us have fewer tragedies like this? Why is it that the US, a country that is arguably more religious and less liberal on the whole than most other Western nations, has so many more mass shootings?

Statistics do not support your less guns = less gun violence theories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

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12 minutes ago, Godless said:

If that's the case, then why do countries far more liberal than us have fewer tragedies like this? Why is it that the US, a country that is arguably more religious and less liberal on the whole than most other Western nations, has so many more mass shootings?

The USA, of course, doesn't have "many more mass shootings".  Another Fake News.

If you take Chicago out of the crime rate, you're gonna have a crime rate comparable to gun-free Europe.  Chicago, of course, is a gun-free zone.

An estimated 90% of gun crime in the USA are done by Democrats.  Why aren't you banning Democrats?

The number of gun crime committed by NRA members doesn't even make a blip on statistics.  Yet the NRA is the boogey man.

 

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't disagree. It is the proposal that various gun control measures -- like limiting silencers -- are the best means to get ahead of potential threats that I question. (Note: I do not object to all gun control initiatives). What I do object to is the idea that my belief in that matter means I must not care about the victims or the potential threats. I don't think gun control is, frankly, doable, however. There are something like 300 million guns in the US. Trying to take them away would literally cause civil war. Beyond that, limiting clip sizes and the like is not going to do anything to curb incidents like what happened in Vegas.

Gun control in the USA where the 2nd amendment exists, strips guns from law-abiding citizens.  Mass shooters are not law-abiding citizens.

878c59f75da892138bd183c65b4d38d0--gun-co

Edited by anatess2

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Thomas Jefferson was an adulterer

Misleading statement. Jefferson was not an adulterer. His wife was wife was dead when he was with Sally Hemings. Therefore he could not be an adulterer. Did he have a sexual relationship without getting married, yes (and some would still debate that). It was obviously  wrong to do but not as bad as being unfaithful to his wife. Twisting his life to make an excuse for your President  is wrong. And shows how weak your argument is. You want to put Trump in the same category as Bill Clinton and JFK go ahead. But that doesn't really shine a good light on him.... but by all means go a head and do it.

Edited by miav

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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Statistics do not support your less guns = less gun violence theories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Fair enough. Let's look at it by state though. With the lone exception of Texas, the entire gun-loving Bible Belt is at or above the national average. Contrast that with the northern states, where gun laws are typically more strict.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

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3 minutes ago, miav said:

Misleading statement. Jefferson was not an adulterer. His wife was wife was dead when he was with Sally Hemings. Therefore he could not be an adulterer. Did he have a sexual relationship without getting married, yes (and some would still debate that). It was obviously  wrong to do but not as bad as being unfaithful to his wife. Twisting his life to make an excuse for your President  is wrong. And shows how weak your argument is. You want to put Trump in the same category as Bill Clinton and JFK go ahead. But that doesn't really shine a good light on him.... but by all means go a head and do it.

You, of course, missed the entire point of the post.  I call it Trump Derangement Syndrome.

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