Hatred of Christians in America?

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Godless said:

Fair enough. Let's look at it by state though. With the lone exception of Texas, the entire gun-loving Bible Belt is at or above the national average. Contrast that with the northern states, where gun laws are typically more strict.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

This, of course, is inapplicable since most gun deaths are suicide.  Unless, of course, you're going to make a claim that guns make people want to commit suicide.

[zil]

47 minutes ago, Godless said:

I want to know what you think is the cause of attacks like this

Do you honestly think the existence / availability of guns is the cause of attacks like this?  The cause exists in the mind of the shooter, not in the gun.  The solution to behavior problems lies in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  The best we can do is continue preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.  I know, you've already rejected that idea, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Simple fact: if everyone related in any way to that shooting were living the gospel of Jesus Christ to the best of their ability (possibly even half-heartedly), it never would have happened.  That this is a pipe dream doesn't alter its reality.

But, if we really want to accomplish the same end through gun control, the method is really quite obvious.  All the below must be done on a global scale, if even 1 thing / person escapes the plan, it fails:

1. Destroy all documentation on how guns, ammo, and related items work and are made - and that mention their mere existence.  (This includes all movies, books, and other media depicting guns in any fashion - including SciFi ray guns, toys, and the like.)
2. Destroy all documentation that could easily lead to figuring out #1
3. Destroy all people who already know #1 and #2
4. Destroy all guns, ammo, and related items (includes toys - like rubber-band guns - we may have to remove all the index fingers and thumbs from the planet)
5. Monitor carefully the thoughts of clever people who could become #3s - or just destroy them too
6. Control all media so that none of the rising generation has any clue what guns are (the dictionaries, history books, all evidence of war, etc. will have to be censored)
7. All of the above include military, police, government, hobbyists, criminals, etc., etc.

It may sound snarky, but I'm quite serious.  Above is how we end all gun violence (at least until someone escapes the plan).  Anything short of this, and criminals will get guns.  Thus, "gun control" is as much a pipe dream (more, actually) as spreading the gospel.  The problem is not the weapons.  The problem is with people (whether the shooter, or those in the shooter's life) not living the gospel of Jesus Christ.  The solution is to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.  (That stuff @anatess2 mentioned above that forms "a grievance-free citizenry" will help too (and is part of the gospel, actually), but is also a pipe-dream because we will never be free of people who want everyone else to work and give them things while they themselves refuse to work.)

[The Folk Prophet]

34 minutes ago, Godless said:

Fair enough. Let's look at it by state though. With the lone exception of Texas, the entire gun-loving Bible Belt is at or above the national average. Contrast that with the northern states, where gun laws are typically more strict.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

I'd need more specific statistics than "typically" to really discuss this.

 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You, of course, missed the entire point of the post.  I call it Trump Derangement Syndrome.

And you missed the entire point of mine, I call it misrepresenting the truth so Trump looks good. Which mist Trump supporters like to do. Sadly it's not going to do this country any good and in the long run, hurt it mire than you realize.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, miav said:

And you missed the entire point of mine, I call it misrepresenting the truth so Trump looks good. Which mist Trump supporters like to do. Sadly it's not going to do this country any good and in the long run, hurt it mire than you realize.

Really?  You think that the morality of Presidents declined only when Trump was elected?  You also believe that the character assassination of Presidents started with Trump?

There's a word for that.  Naivete.  I don't think this applies to you though.  I think you just hate Trump.  That's fine.  I can say I hate Clinton.  Although hate is too heavy a word and I usually avoid using it.

Edited October 4, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Really?  You think that the morality of Presidents declined when Trump was elected?  You also believe that the character assassination of Presidents started with Trump?

Never said that. In fact i stated that you were free to lump Trump in with Clinton and JFK. What is wrong is misrepresenting facts, which you did with Thomas Jefferson. Misrepresenting facts seems to be a big problem with Trump followers. 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, miav said:

. Misrepresenting facts seems to be a big problem with Trump followers. 

It's a problem with politics in general. We all spin things to make our side look good. I agree-Trumpers do this big time. 

[anatess2]

16 minutes ago, miav said:

Never said that. In fact i stated that you were free to lump Trump in with Clinton and JFK. What is wrong is misrepresenting facts, which you did with Thomas Jefferson. Misrepresenting facts seems to be a big problem with Trump followers. 

Well, that was the point of my post.  And, of course, you just can't put a lid to expressing your hatred for Trump followers as a collective too which is how we get deranged people happy to shoot off other people.

But just to clear this up, in my book, people who have sex with other people not their wife when they have a wife is adultery.  Of course, I don't consider the marriage ended just because the wife died.  But I can see why you would say that's wrong-think.

Edited October 4, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's a problem with politics in general. We all spin things to make our side look good. I agree-Trumpers do this big time. 

You mean, like Benghazi and a youTube video?  And Hands up don't shoot?  And Russia collusion?  And Puerto Ricans dying without aid?  How about Pewdepie is a Nazi White Supremacist?  Trumpers do that big time?

Edited October 4, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

you just can't put a lid to expressing your hatred for Trump followers

I don't have hatred for Trump followers. I am however disappointed how they misrepresent facts. Misrepresenting the facts isn't new but coming from people who usually push for higher morals, it's rather suprising.

Edited October 4, 2017 by miav

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

The solutions we want to talk about aren't just about Vegas. We've been talking about these things since Sandy Hook, Pulse, and San Bernardino. The silencer and magazine issues have some merit. Yes, a skilled shooter can overcome those sorts of obstacles. But if we can stop the effeciency of a few unskilled shooters, then doesn't that make the issues worth considering at the very least? Heck, one fairly incompetent terrorist tried and failed to blow up an airplane with a shoe, and now everyone has to take their shoes off at the airport even though no one has ever been killed by a shoe in this country. 

As for mental health, has it occured to you that the reason so many people with mental illnesses are undiagnosed is because of the cost of health care in this country? Heck, before I got on my wife's insurance there were multiple instances when I thought I may have broken a finger or a toe at work, but I didn't bother to go to a doctor to find out because I couldn't afford it. I think it's reasonable to think that there are people out there treating mental illness the same way. Therapy and psychiatric help aren't viable options for a lot of people in this country. 

There's stonewalling and then there's debate. What you and I are doing now is debate. What @anatess2 is doing in the above post is stonewalling. We've heard too many times in recent years "This isn't the time to talk about this". Then the issue grows cold until the next shooting. I don't expect the right to jump on board with all of my ideas, but let's talk about them at the very least. Because shrugging our shoulders and saying "whelp, nothing we could do" isn't working. It's time go get ahead of the issue of violence in this country rather than chasing it down every time tragedy strikes. If you're tired of "false solutions" from the left, then I'd love to hear some from the right. But it seems like their solution is always more guns. There has to be a better solution, right?

Let me start first with what may be the major philosophical difference between us on this issue.  I am very open to—maybe even resigned to—the possibility that there isn’t a solution.  Not a 100% one.  Probably not even a 50% one, and maybe not even a 25% or a 10% one.  To some degree, we’re trying to square a circle.  A major purpose for the Second Amendment is that the government must be held in check by its fear that an armed populace  may do terrible things.  The inevitable corollary to that is that sometimes the armed populace will do terrible things.  We accept this because we believe that over time, the dangers an unopposed government poses to decent citizens exceeds the dangers that other citizens post to that same decent citizen.

I’m generally OK whittling around the edges of that dynamic, weighing cost-benefits analyses on a case-by-case basis—highly regulating automatic weapons, high explosives, that sort of thing.  But I also recognize that progressives and totalitarians work on an incrementalist strategy; so that overarching goal of making sure my government remains scared of me will always be a big factor in as I look at these decisions.  

So:  on silencers, I don’t see a major safety benefit to forcing gunshots to be over 130 decibels rather than 100 or 110 decibels.  

On magazine sizes—my understanding is that once you get above about 30-50 rounds, those are kind of unwieldy anyways; so for myself—OK, I’m probably fine with a 50 round cap.  But I understand it can take multiple rounds to bring down a guy strung out on drugs; so between that and the possibility of bad aim under stress—I don’t want to be confined to just 7 or 10 rounds or whatever the number du jour is.  And magazine size is largely irrelevant in scenarios like Las Vegas, where cops apparently took 45 minutes to find and get to the sniper’s nest and another 20 minutes after that before they decided to maybe—you know—go on in and start shooting back at this dirtbag.

Mental health:  I think it’s *way* more complex than simply throwing money at it.  This is not intended as a slap at anyone with mental health challenges; but I don’t think mental health treatment, as an industry, is at a point where I would feel comfortable relying on a therapist saying “that guy’s cured, he can have guns now.”  So it becomes a matter of screening for mental illness and then putting folks on a permanent blacklist.  I can see some merits in that; but it opens new cans of worms.  Such a blacklist will not be helpful in incentivizing additional people to submit to screenings.  Moreover, most of the mentally ill I’ve worked with, don’t think there’s anything wrong with them and don’t understand why the court is making them do all these tests—it’s not a matter of money, it’s a matter of will.  And finally, I don’t trust the politicization of the mental health industry.  I fully expect that within my lifetime there will be serious efforts to pathologize religious belief as well as traditional conservative world views.  So no, the threat of mass shootings doesn’t drive me into the arms of otherwise-odious government-run health care regimes.  

You talk of low-gun populations in Europe and the northern US.  To that I would suggest that what those nations enjoy is homogeneity.  They do not have large 20-50% of their population who have spent the last fifty years hearing about how it’s impossible for them to get ahead in life because the other 80-50% of their populations have been screwing them over.  When you do see those sorts of enclaves in the North—in Chicago, in Detroit, in Philadelphia, in Oakland, in Cleveland—you see all sorts of violence in spite of the most stringent gun laws; and where you see such divided diversity increasing in London, in Paris, in Stockholm; you see violence on the rise as well; with the law-abiding citizenry largely unprepared to defend themselves.  That’s why a shared sense of history and patriotism and some lowest-common denominator of religion/ethics is so important in spite of racial and ethnic differences; and when that unity erodes, we retreat back into our herds and start trying to hurt the guys who appear to threaten our tribe.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

When a tragedy like this occurs, the conservative voices offering "thoughts and prayers" are often also the ones who resist any reasonable effort to prevent future tragedies. Some of these guys offering "thoughts and prayers" support legalized silencers, high capacity magazines, and decreased health coverage for people with mental illnesses. It makes those thoughts and prayers ring very hollow when they refuse to work towards solutions. Those of us who aren't religious view prayer as an empty gesture unless it's backed up with actions.  

I'm not saying that the vilification of the religious is justified. Just trying to explain where it's probably coming from.

You are spot on as to the reasoning. This tact is recent though. It used to be--like less than 10 years ago--that politicians would all offer thoughts and prayers for a few days. THEN the claims of hypocrisy, "blood on hands" etc. would begin. I hate that "thoughts and prayers" is now being seen as a pro-NRA response.

[prisonchaplain]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 he doesn't disrespect American Veterans and Heroes.  John McCain deserves to be disrespected not because he's an American Veteran and Hero but because he's a corrupt piece of Congressional garbage who has used his POW status to sell his soul.

 

The President is a brawler and was elected because of this trait. Still, he disrespected McCain's POW experience. In that instance, imho, he did disrespect veterans. HOWEVER, if those who are now trial-ballooning all this anti-religious stuff are going to retort that it's because of Trump's tone then I'll certainly agree:  That's FAKE CAUSATION.

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

The conservative solution, as far as I can tell, is typically "prayers and more guns". Other than that, conservatives tend to be pretty quiet about solutions during times like these. Like I told JAG, if you have other ideas to offer, I'd love to hear and discuss them. I'm not claiming to have the answers, but sometimes it feels like the effort to find those answers is very one-sided. 

The error, imho, is that conservative and religious are getting conflated. The religious solution is prayer, counselors, food and emergency assistance, use of houses of worship if needed, etc. For some reason progressives are seeing a political advantage to mushing the NRA supporters in with people of faith, and then, in essence, saying that prayers are pathetic. It's time for us to do something. This is the hostility I'm sensing--which drove the OP..

[Just_A_Guy]

27 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The President is a brawler and was elected because of this trait. Still, he disrespected McCain's POW experience. In that instance, imho, he did disrespect veterans. HOWEVER, if those who are now trial-ballooning all this anti-religious stuff are going to retort that it's because of Trump's tone then I'll certainly agree:  That's FAKE CAUSATION.

Well, yes and no.

Billy spends all day in class poking Bobby, sniggering behind his back, tugging his shirt.  Bobby takes it, and takes it, and takes it.  Finally he hauls off and socks Billy in the jaw.

Billy starts punching back and suddenly we’ve got a schoolyard brawl on our hands, in which after a moment Billy produces a knife.

Billy is the American left.  Bobby is the Trump coalition.

Bobby hit Billy knowing (or having good reason to know) that Billy had a knife, but Bobby gambled that Billy wouldn’t actually use it.

Bobby thought wrong.

They’re both idiots; and here we are, and someone’s about to get stabbed, and it might be us.

And we’re in this situation because some redneck gamma-male chihuahuas and their pseudo-conservative, fawning dolly birds decided that it was better to make a show of being an “alpha” than it was to pull your punches and  solve the problem by working through channels.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

They’re both idiots.  

Amen.

[prisonchaplain]

@Just_A_Guy  How depressing . . . how true! 

[Vort]

21 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

They’re both idiots; and here we are, and someone’s about to get stabbed, and it might be us.

False equivalency. I appreciate your metaphor, but even in the metaphor, the assignment of blame is greatly unbalanced. To say that "both are idiots" suggests that they are equally guilty. They are not, either in your example or in the real-life equivalent.

Trump is a buffoon and an embarrassment. He is still ten times better as President than Hillary Clinton would have been.

[Guest Godless]

37 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

You are spot on as to the reasoning. This tact is recent though. It used to be--like less than 10 years ago--that politicians would all offer thoughts and prayers for a few days. THEN the claims of hypocrisy, "blood on hands" etc. would begin. I hate that "thoughts and prayers" is now being seen as a pro-NRA response.

I'd chalk that up to gun control advocates becoming less and less patient in the face of perceived inaction as mass murders continue to happen. Again, not a justification, just an explanation. 

25 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The error, imho, is that conservative and religious are getting conflated. The religious solution is prayer, counselors, food and emergency assistance, use of houses of worship if needed, etc. For some reason progressives are seeing a political advantage to mushing the NRA supporters in with people of faith, and then, in essence, saying that prayers are pathetic. It's time for us to do something. This is the hostility I'm sensing--which drove the OP..

There's probably a significant overlap between NRA supporters and people of faith, but I agree that it's an unfair connection to make. I'll try to be mindful of that in the future. 

[anatess2]

39 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The President is a brawler and was elected because of this trait. Still, he disrespected McCain's POW experience. In that instance, imho, he did disrespect veterans. HOWEVER, if those who are now trial-ballooning all this anti-religious stuff are going to retort that it's because of Trump's tone then I'll certainly agree:  That's FAKE CAUSATION.

Disrespecting John McCain is not disrespecting veterans.  If I disrespect you that doesn't mean I'm disrespecting prison chaplains.

Edited October 4, 2017 by anatess2

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

It's a problem with politics in general. We all spin things to make our side look good. I agree-Trumpers do this big time. 

If we are going to toss names out, you should have included the Obama and Clinton supporters. 

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

@mirkwood has a cart full of firearms.  

What have you been doing poking around my house?

[prisonchaplain]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Disrespecting John McCain is not disrespecting veterans.  If I disrespect you that doesn't mean I'm disrespecting prison chaplains.

Nobody questions that McCain suffered tremendous torture during his POW time. Candidate Trump asked why we should applaud someone who basically got caught. That statement/inquiry was indeed an insult to anyone who has been a POW. It's also an insult to the families.

I'll defend POTUS on his policies and nominations, but when he says stupid/hurtful stuff I just watch and mourn.

[JohnsonJones]

23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Disrespecting John McCain is not disrespecting veterans.  If I disrespect you that doesn't mean I'm disrespecting prison chaplains.

You may not be an American, and hence you may not understand what an American Hero is, and that in many instances, especially in the cases of POW's, and those who are POWs in Vietnam stand together.  To insult the sacrifices and struggles of one, is to insult all their struggles.  McCain did NOT have to remain a POW as long as he did.  From what I understand, due to who his father was, he was offered to be released as a special treatment.  Instead of putting himself ahead of the other POWs in that instance, he chose to remain and help those there, as well as to stand for the others that were POWs with him.  THAT's why he's considered a hero as a POW, not just because he was a POW, but because as a POW, he tried to keep faith with his fellow POWs and his fellow soldiers.

AFTER he was released, he STILL went back and even cooperated with the other political spectrum in an effort to get ALL the POWs home.  THATS why he's an American hero for Veterans and POWs.

You insult him, you insult many (and some may say...ALL) veterans.  There is no I in the  US Army, no me in the US Air Force, and no self in US Navy, but if you look hard enough, there is an US.

Edited October 4, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[The Folk Prophet]

49 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, yes and no.

Billy spends all day in class poking Bobby, sniggering behind his back, tugging his shirt.  Bobby takes it, and takes it, and takes it.  Finally he hauls off and socks Billy in the jaw.

Billy starts punching back and suddenly we’ve got a schoolyard brawl on our hands, in which after a moment Billy produces a knife.

Billy is the American left.  Bobby is the Trump coalition.

Bobby hit Billy knowing (or having good reason to know) that Billy had a knife, but Bobby gambled that Billy wouldn’t actually use it.

Bobby thought wrong.

They’re both idiots; and here we are, and someone’s about to get stabbed, and it might be us.

And we’re in this situation because some redneck gamma-male chihuahuas and their pseudo-conservative, fawning dolly birds decided that it was better to make a show of being an “alpha” than it was to pull your punches and  solve the problem by working through channels.

Bobby's got a knife too. A bigger one.