Communication/Financial Burden

[jewels8]

I have noticed that in marriages, there too often is (unfortunately) a refusal from one or both parties to communicate in areas of there marriage.  Especially with finances, I have noticed that one may    be spending money on unnecessary purchases that the family cannot afford. (ofcourse what is unnecessary can vary from family to family and individual to individual), but when the budget is limited, say one spouse is working at a low paying part-time job,and the other is not working, it is impossible to make ends meet.   Then when the concerned spouse tries to talk to the spouse who is overspending, the over spender distances himself (or herself), and does not clear up the issue right away, if at all, and gets letters warning about paying the overpayments or having other actions to be taken.  It is not fair for the non overspending spouse and the children to have to suffer the effects of the overspending spouse.  The overspending spouse is not able to get a job and spends time alone, doing what he or she wants to do, while kids are at school and the wife or husband is at work.  How does one deal with trying to communicate together and resolve the financial issues, when one repeatedly backs away?    I have sadly, seen this in the lives of others.

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

 How does one deal with trying to communicate together and resolve the financial issues, when one repeatedly backs away?    I have sadly, seen this in the lives of others.

First you got to establish joint goals and priorities.  This starts with the very basic sit down and establish "Not spending more than we make is a priority for us".  That may sound silly to say, it is the the first common step.  Once it's been established that this important and you're going to do it together as a couple, then you can actually start looking at the budget.  But common goals need to come first.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

19 minutes ago, jewels8 said:

I have noticed that in marriages, there too often is (unfortunately) a refusal from one or both parties to communicate in areas of there marriage.  

It's common knowledge in marriage counselor circles that the two things people don't talk about much in a marriage are sex and money. The only way to get around it is, well, to talk about it. You tell the other person what you want and expect and hopefully you can come to agreement. If you can't, you've got a problem. 

[my two cents]

Sometimes the issue is that someone is emotionally spending so they need to get to the root of that and look for more appropriate ways to handle less-desirable emotions. It could also be that someone buys things spur-of-the-moment and just likes the rush but they aren't really attached to the item itself. With this, just save the receipts and return the items. 

[Guest]

I am going to have to be honest about my feelings here - I know people divorce over money, but I think money issues are a really, really bad reason to divorce someone.  

I think you should try and talk with a spouse about money differences, try to work out a budget or a compromise or each spouse having an allowance (e.g., each spouse gets $100 per month of "fun money").  But, at the end of the day, you may have to eat the consequences of being married to someone who views money differently than you.  Live in a van together if you have to.  In 30-40 years, you are going to be dead, and you aren't going to be able to take your money with you.  Money differences are not worth divorcing over and forfeiting your exaltation over.  Money is nothing more than a necessary evil, and should be treated as such.

I know if I were at a monetary impasse with my spouse, and talking didn't help, I would probably just capitulate.  Frankly, I don't think standing one's ground on money, or having a good credit score, or having a large retirement account, is worth blowing up your relationship with your spouse over.  Money just isn't that important.

I remember on this forum a few months ago a guy came on asking if it was OK to divorce his wife because she was giving too much of "his" money to their children.  Rarely have I felt more of a king-sized disgust.  It got me thinking - are we, as Mormons, being contaminated by materialism?  Are we becoming spoiled children in the midst of all the affluence we are around?  Are we letting something as silly and trivial as money cheat us out of eternal marriage?

Edited October 8, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Just_A_Guy]

21 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I am going to have to be honest about my feelings here - I know people divorce over money, but I think money issues are a really, really bad reason to divorce someone.  

I think you should try and talk with a spouse about money differences, try to work out a budget or a compromise or each spouse having an allowance.  But, at the end of the day, you may have to eat the consequences of being married to someone who views money differently than you.  Live in a van together if you have to.  Money differences are not worth divorcing over.

I remember on this forum a few months ago a guy came on asking if it was OK to divorce his wife because she was giving too much of "his" money to their children.  Rarely have I felt more of a king-sized disgust.  It got me thinking - are we, as Mormons, being contaminated by materialism?  Are we becoming spoiled children in the midst of all the affluence we are around?  Are money issues tearing apart our families?

Doc, I generally agree with your sentiments and know you speak from experience; but I would offer a slightly different take.

Yes, there definitely needs to be flexibility and allowances for differences.  And I think a lot of “overspending” by one spouse in a marriage, may well hark back to the fact that the overspending spouse either wasn’t part of, or was basically steamrolled in, the process that produced the family budget.

That said:  money doesn’t just represent “stuff” and materialism.  It represents security, and labor, and stability—particularly where retirement planning is concerned.  Most of us, I daresay, wouldn’t allow our spouses to sell us into indentured servitude to finance their own profligacy; and we might even separate and isolate our own assets (if not outright divorce) to prevent such a disaster.  But if a spouse’s careless and unilateral choices are setting back our own retirement by five or ten years or more—that sort of boils down to the same thing, doesn’t it?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Most of us, I daresay, wouldn’t allow our spouses to sell us into indentured servitude to finance their own profligacy; 

I believe you just defined marriage.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Doc, I generally agree with your sentiments and know you speak from experience; but I would offer a slightly different take.

Yes, there definitely needs to be flexibility and allowances for differences.  And I think a lot of “overspending” by one spouse in a marriage, may well hark back to the fact that the overspending spouse either wasn’t part of, or was basically steamrolled in, the process that produced the family budget.

That said:  money doesn’t just represent “stuff” and materialism.  It represents security, and labor, and stability—particularly where retirement planning is concerned.  Most of us, I daresay, wouldn’t allow our spouses to sell us into indentured servitude to finance their own profligacy; and we might even separate and isolate our own assets (if not outright divorce) to prevent such a disaster.  But if a spouse’s careless and unilateral choices are setting back our own retirement by five or ten years or more—that sort of boils down to the same thing, doesn’t it?

Very well said.

I would suggest that, if anyone is worried about financial security, they should read "Vanabode" by Jason Odom.  The book totally changed my outlook about money.  If you are willing to take the leap and live in a slightly unorthodox way (the back of a used van converted into a small apartment), you can live like an absolute king on $600 per month.  Just about anyone can come up with $600 per month, whether through social security, a part time job, or disability payments.  The idea is, you can start with zero assets, and still live a secure and fulfilling lifestyle on very minimal amounts of money, if needed.

It should be noted my wife thinks my fascination with vandwelling is a bunch of rubbish and a little creepy.  However, to me it represents a way to, at least on a psychological level, have some freedom and independence from money.  While I may not have any plans to quit my job and vandwell anytime soon, having the knowledge of vandwelling and how to do it gives me a lot of confidence and, for me at least, takes a lot of fear out of career planning, retirement planning, money issues, and planning for the future, because I know I have the know-how to survive, thrive and be happy if I lose basically every penny I have.

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[mordorbund]

On 10/7/2017 at 11:41 PM, DoctorLemon said:

Very well said.

I would suggest that, if anyone is worried about financial security, they should read "Vanabode" by Jason Odom.  The book totally changed my outlook about money.  If you are willing to take the leap and live in a slightly unorthodox way (the back of a used van converted into a small apartment), you can live like an absolute king on $600 per month.  Just about anyone can come up with $600 per month, whether through social security, a part time job, or disability payments.  The idea is, you can start with zero assets, and still live a secure and fulfilling lifestyle on very minimal amounts of money, if needed.

It should be noted my wife thinks my fascination with vandwelling is a bunch of rubbish and a little creepy.  However, to me it represents a way to, at least on a psychological level, have some freedom and independence from money.  While I may not have any plans to quit my job and vandwell anytime soon, having the knowledge of vandwelling and how to do it gives me a lot of confidence and, for me at least, takes a lot of fear out of career planning, retirement planning, money issues, and planning for the future, because I know I have the know-how to survive, thrive and be happy if I lose basically every penny I have.

 

[Inside the Lemon home]

SisterLemon: I just think we don't need to put away so much towards retirement. There's some really fun things going on this month I'd love to do.

DoctorLemon: ......

SisterLemon: [sing-song voice] We could go together...

DoctorLemon: [picks up Vanabode and answers absent-mindedly] ...Sure honey, we don't need that much for retirement.... knock yourself out....

SisterLemon: [sigh]

[Latter-Day Marriage]

My wife and I both work, so what we've done is I am responsible to cover certain things (mortgage, insurances, utilities etc.) and she is responsible to cover other things (groceries, clothing etc.).  I'd like to say it is working out great but we incurred a fair bit of debt with her finishing her degree and we are not paying it down much so we are going to have one of those kinds of conversations ourselves very soon.

[mrmarklin]

I’ve had my share of problems with finances in my marriage. 

For me, it boils down to personal responsibility. This can be a fundamental incapatibility between spouses, and IMO grounds for divorce if not resolved. 

One can live in Goa, India for less than $600 per month. But why?

Edited October 12, 2017 by mrmarklin

[anatess2]

Okay, true story here...

Before we got married, I had to agree that my husband will work toward paying off my debt (that I didn't even think of as debt).  I had $40K worth of mall cards.  Coming from the Philippines, my value system was completely out of whack, because a $7.50 movie and a $12.00 haircut are ridiculously expensive when converted to pesos whereas a 5-pack of underwear is only $8 which is ridiculously cheap.  So this was how I approached the mall - the sign says $12/mo (instead of the $5,000 price tag) - because I get all these cards in the mail and all I have to do is sign it and I get mall money.  I had a great job making $50/hour with no limit on how many hours I can work a week.

Anyway, I got married on a Tuesday, I was not speaking to my husband by Friday.  He cut off all the cards except one, which he put in the freezer.  He gave me $50 a week cash to spend on anything.  Seriously, dude?  Fifty bucks?  I can spend 50 bucks in 5 minutes!  He spent everything else that I made on paying off the cards.  Out of his paycheck, he puts money in an envelope marked grocery, another envelope for gas and car maintenance, another envelope for movies.  The rest of the bills he took care of.  I was mad at him for a while but I did promise him I'll have him pay off my debts so I went along with it and suffered.  After we became debt free, he gave the money responsibilities to me.  After 5 years we were in debt again.  We were fighting a lot because we just couldn't agree on which to spend money on.  I spend a lot of money for the Philippines and my husband told me to stop it.  I told him he knew about my obligations to the Philippines before we got married.  He said, buying your cousin a Gucci watch is not an obligation.  Etc. etc.  So, what I did was I told him, there's only one way to end this argument... I handed him the money management and I told him to give me a card.  He puts money on that card and when I swipe it and it says "Declined" that means I ran out of money and I have to wait until I get more money or I have to get a job.  This card will be grocery, gas, etc. etc. that I am responsible for.  So, if I swipe the card on shoes and it gets declined at the grocery we are not going to be able to eat until the next time the card gets money and it will be my fault that the kids go hungry.  So, I don't swipe the card on stuff because I was scared I'd ran out of grocery money.  Yeah, I have no idea how much is in that card until now.  I don't want to know.  I don't want to think about it.  Swipe - it works, swipe - declined.  That's all I want to know.  That way I won't complain that my husband doesn't give me enough money.

So, you might ask... what if my husband goes and stashes money somewhere or spends it on a yacht I don't know about or whatever?  Well, then he has a yacht and money and whatever.  Doesn't matter to me.  So, you might ask... what if your husband divorces you?  Well, then I have bigger problems than money - I can always work for money, dunno how I can work to get my husband back.  What if your husband dies?  Hopefully he leaves instructions before he does, other than that, I don't want to think about it.

Anyway, we haven't argued about money since and we've been married over 20 years.  Dunno if this helps you at all.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by anatess2

[person0]

On 10/7/2017 at 4:04 PM, jewels8 said:

How does one deal with trying to communicate together and resolve the financial issues, when one repeatedly backs away?

Only one spouse controls all the money.  All the money goes in to one bank account, to which only the spouse with the most financial self control has access.  All purchases are made on pre-determined limit credit cards which all link to the same credit account, which is then paid off each month in full from the bank account.  This way the spouse who controls the money can allow the over-spender a budget to buy whatever they want without them being able to spend beyond what is affordable by setting the limit on their individual credit card.

Of course, for this to work, you would have to agree to do it in the first place.

[Jane_Doe]

in my marriage, I make the money, but he's in charge writing the checks for bills.  That's not because I couldn't do it (I'm perfectly capable), but because we've just decided that it's his chore.  Having one of us in charge of all the bills writing skips the conversation "did you pay the water bill or was I supposed to?".  All of our priorities are jointly agreed upon beforehand, and either one of us can check our bank account.  If something comes up (like contemplating a larger purchase), we talk about it.  

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

in my marriage, I make the money, but he's in charge writing the checks for bills.  That's not because I couldn't do it (I'm perfectly capable), but because we've just decided that it's his chore.  Having one of us in charge of all the bills writing skips the conversation "did you pay the water bill or was I supposed to?".  All of our priorities are jointly agreed upon beforehand, and either one of us can check our bank account.  If something comes up (like contemplating a larger purchase), we talk about it.  

I'm pretty sure my husband doesn't write checks anymore.  I think that went away with the fountain pen.. whoops! 

My husband forces me to check the bank account at least once a year by demanding that I do our taxes.

[Dillon]

On 10/12/2017 at 2:31 PM, anatess2 said:

Okay, true story here...

Before we got married, I had to agree that my husband will work toward paying off my debt (that I didn't even think of as debt).  I had $40K worth of mall cards.  Coming from the Philippines, my value system was completely out of whack, because a $7.50 movie and a $12.00 haircut are ridiculously expensive when converted to pesos whereas a 5-pack of underwear is only $8 which is ridiculously cheap.  So this was how I approached the mall - the sign says $12/mo (instead of the $5,000 price tag) - because I get all these cards in the mail and all I have to do is sign it and I get mall money.  I had a great job making $50/hour with no limit on how many hours I can work a week.

Anyway, I got married on a Tuesday, I was not speaking to my husband by Friday.  He cut off all the cards except one, which he put in the freezer.  He gave me $50 a week cash to spend on anything.  Seriously, dude?  Fifty bucks?  I can spend 50 bucks in 5 minutes!  He spent everything else that I made on paying off the cards.  Out of his paycheck, he puts money in an envelope marked grocery, another envelope for gas and car maintenance, another envelope for movies.  The rest of the bills he took care of.  I was mad at him for a while but I did promise him I'll have him pay off my debts so I went along with it and suffered.  After we became debt free, he gave the money responsibilities to me.  After 5 years we were in debt again.  We were fighting a lot because we just couldn't agree on which to spend money on.  I spend a lot of money for the Philippines and my husband told me to stop it.  I told him he knew about my obligations to the Philippines before we got married.  He said, buying your cousin a Gucci watch is not an obligation.  Etc. etc.  So, what I did was I told him, there's only one way to end this argument... I handed him the money management and I told him to give me a card.  He puts money on that card and when I swipe it and it says "Declined" that means I ran out of money and I have to wait until I get more money or I have to get a job.  This card will be grocery, gas, etc. etc. that I am responsible for.  So, if I swipe the card on shoes and it gets declined at the grocery we are not going to be able to eat until the next time the card gets money and it will be my fault that the kids go hungry.  So, I don't swipe the card on stuff because I was scared I'd ran out of grocery money.  Yeah, I have no idea how much is in that card until now.  I don't want to know.  I don't want to think about it.  Swipe - it works, swipe - declined.  That's all I want to know.  That way I won't complain that my husband doesn't give me enough money.

So, you might ask... what if my husband goes and stashes money somewhere or spends it on a yacht I don't know about or whatever?  Well, then he has a yacht and money and whatever.  Doesn't matter to me.  So, you might ask... what if your husband divorces you?  Well, then I have bigger problems than money - I can always work for money, dunno how I can work to get my husband back.  What if your husband dies?  Hopefully he leaves instructions before he does, other than that, I don't want to think about it.

Anyway, we haven't argued about money since and we've been married over 20 years.  Dunno if this helps you at all.

All I can say is you must be a very, very good looking woman.

On 10/12/2017 at 2:31 PM, anatess2 said:

 

 

 

[anatess2]

38 minutes ago, Dillon said:

All I can say is you must be a very, very good looking woman.

 

Hey!  You're back!  Thought you don't like us anymore. 

 

[Dillon]

28 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Hey!  You're back!  Thought you don't like us anymore. 

 

Oh no, not at all. I took a mandatory break from the board for a minute.  I think all my loving comments were just too much for some to handle.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Anatess you should have an idea of where all the money is and where your life insurance policy is if you do not know.  If your husband dies you could be setting yourself up for financial disasters.  I would talk to him and get these things in order.

I know I am under insured for my life insurance.  $265,000 is not enough to replace my income for long.  All my wife will have is about 6 years of security about with frugal spending.  If a bread winner has no life insurance then that is just irresponsible.  Be nice to your family.  No one plans on dying young but it happens sometimes.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Still_Small_Voice

[anatess2]

22 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Anatess you should have an idea of where all the money is and where your life insurance policy is if you do not know.  If your husband dies you could be setting yourself up for financial disasters.  I would talk to him and get these things in order.

I know I am under insured for my life insurance.  $265,000 is not enough to replace my income for long.  All my wife will have is about 6 years of security about with frugal spending.  If a bread winner has no life insurance then that is just irresponsible.  Be nice to your family.  No one plans on dying young but it happens sometimes.

Nope.  I don't need to know.  I'd rather have a peaceful marriage now than get whatever money is due me if he passes.  There's a reason I made sure I'm financially capable of supporting myself and my kids without my husband if that ever becomes necessary.  My husband can leave us all penniless and upside-down and I would still be capable of feeding myself and the kids if he doesn't leave instructions.  My husband and I could die and leave the kids penniless and there would still be family for them to run to who will feed, clothe, house them and fund their college if they desire to go if my husband didn't leave instructions.  One of the perks of belonging to a close-knit clan...

This is not my worry if he passes.  My worry is that... he passed.

Edited November 3, 2017 by anatess2

[Blossom76]

Ideally money should be discussed in pre-marital counselling.  My husband and I did this and we have never had a problem in our marriage over money (it was done through our church but I'm sure any counsellor would be just as effective).  We discuss every major purchase before committing to anything.  Our current monetary discussions are about the purchase of a new car, my son is turning 18 so we are going to give him my car and buy me a new one.  

I take care of the responsibility of moving the money around, paying bills, household shopping etc.  All our finances are on a spreadsheet on our computer, our savings, bills, insurance limits, plus every cent we spend is logged and accounted for every fortnight.  We can both see our compete financial status, our budget, projected savings etc whenever we want to.  I understand not everyone would see the value in this system, I know how boring it must sound.  But I highly recommend it.  It has helped us to really get ahead financially and be secure.  We have no secrets when it comes to money at all.  No secrets, no lies, no arguments.

So many people get married these days without doing pre-marital counselling.  I honestly feel the rate of divorce would be a lot lower if everyone did it.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Anatess you should have an idea of where all the money is and where your life insurance policy is if you do not know.  If your husband dies you could be setting yourself up for financial disasters.  I would talk to him and get these things in order.

I know I am under insured for my life insurance.  $265,000 is not enough to replace my income for long.  All my wife will have is about 6 years of security about with frugal spending.  If a bread winner has no life insurance then that is just irresponsible.  Be nice to your family.  No one plans on dying young but it happens sometimes.

Actually if you take that 265k and invest it properly, then only withdraw 10% of the principal annually, you should be able to provide $26k payments for maybe 15 years or more.  If your wife were to work full time, even without college she should still be able to make 14k a year and replace your income, assuming you make about 40k (a sixth of 240k)  (and she could go to night school during that time period for whatever comes next).

I know I know, unsolicited advice... 

Edited November 3, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Latter-Day Marriage]

The church is rolling out a self reliance program that may help.  They just rolled it out in my stake and they want everybody to take it.  There are 4 different groups, one that focuses on managing finances, one finding work / career development, one on gaining education and skills, and one on developing your own business.  The materials are all online at https://www.lds.org/self-reliance/welcome-new-self-reliance-specialists?lang=eng

You pick one of the four and they have 12 session.  They are not lessons or lectures, they are based on the idea of counseling together and letting the spirit guide things so it is a bit different from the usual.  We only just started here.

[CarolynTFrank]

Don't spend much on what is not needed.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

On 10/9/2017 at 4:11 PM, Latter-Day Marriage said:

My wife and I both work, so what we've done is I am responsible to cover certain things (mortgage, insurances, utilities etc.) and she is responsible to cover other things (groceries, clothing etc.).  I'd like to say it is working out great but we incurred a fair bit of debt with her finishing her degree and we are not paying it down much so we are going to have one of those kinds of conversations ourselves very soon.

Update. 

Our stake started the Self Reliance classes and we are going to the Personal Finances one.  It has helped her see the path we are on and feel the need for a change.  Currently working out a new plan that I hope will see more of our income heading toward debt repayment.