Tattoos and Other Things We Could Use More of at Church

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Anddenex said:

@Vort was responding to this particular part of Traveler's response, "Some think that “Christians” should not provide services for a LGBT community event – I am of the other mind – I believe anyone that comes to a believer of Christ – we should accommodate them as we would anyone and everyone else – standing as a witness of Christ."

His examples were relevant to the statement he quoted; although, I would say the the tobacco farmer and casino owner examples aren't relevant (or better said not the greatest example in relation to Traveler's statement), and there wouldn't be anything wrong in praying for someone whether or not we agree with their business. This would be similar, as to my minds eyes, saying, "I wouldn't pray for a lesbian couples child who was sick even if they asked." We would offend God if we did not pray for his little ones.

There is irony though in the following, "no we should not... drive women to abortion clinics, but..." I would, "Attend a homosexuals wedding all day long I would." So you draw the line on "life" and that is a good thing, but you are still supporting sin. It obviously is your choice which sin you support (and by attending their wedding and congratulating the union we do indeed "condone" the sin), but does not make Vorts comment juvenile or irrelevant. These examples were very much relevant to Traveler's mentioned statement. Attending a SSM doesn't make you more compassionate and non-judgemental then someone who chooses not to attend.

The answer to most of the questions would be as such, "if Jesus were here he would not participate in any of those actions and those who would do such things would hear his word and repent quickly of their sinful ways." Anytime our lives are contrary to the will of God it is wisdom that we hear his voice and repent quickly. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In light of compassion and judging, as with anyone who mentions judging, draw your mind to these word, "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye." Notice God's reprimand is for us to first pull the beam from our own eye in order to see clearly to cast out a mote from thy brother's eye, which requires "judgment" to recognize the "mote" is still there.

Personally, I would love to see Christ live today, and how he would respond, but we can see how the world views the Lord's prophets and servants and if this is the way they view them, they would treat the Master no less, but worse.

 

 

 

I find your post thoughtful – Would we do all the things on @Vort's list if G-d commanded us?  It was Nephi that said he would go and do what the L-rd commanded – but then it was Nephi that questioned and hesitated when Laban lie drunk in the gutter and Nephi was commanded to kill a completely defenseless Laban.

I do not have all the answers for all the conditions and circumstances I face – let alone what many on this forum face or will face over their lifetime.   My primary effort is to encourage that we as saints live by covenant and not so much by doctrine (doctrine being a list – long or short - of do’s and don’ts).

BTW – when I lived in Maryland I came to know and befriend a tobacco farmer that himself hated smokers and tobacco smoke.   I asked him why he was a tobacco farmer?  His answer was that if he planted corn on his little 20 acres he would make about $5 per acre.  If he planted tobacco he would make about $500 per acre.  He asked what I would do if it multiplied my profet (or income) by 100?

 

The Traveler

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

BTW – when I lived in Maryland I came to know and befriend a tobacco farmer that himself hated smokers and tobacco smoke.   I asked him why he was a tobacco farmer?  His answer was that if he planted corn on his little 20 acres he would make about $5 per acre.  If he planted tobacco he would make about $500 per acre.  He asked what I would do if it multiplied my profet (or income) by 100?

I wonder how much hit men make.

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, zil said:

I wonder how much hit men make.

 

Those that serve in the military do not make very much – at least I didn’t while I served during the Vietnam era – I made more on the side while serving in the military than what I was paid to carry a M14.

As a side note – I have recently read several articles about good LDS kids coming home early from their missions because of depression.  When I was called on a mission, I had already served in the military – some of the young men I served with were baptized – some were contemplating baptism and were killed in Vietnam.  I faced difficulties on my mission but nothing like the difficulties of serving in the military.   My mission was easy.

For me – loving others is not so difficult – for me trust is what is what is hard to come by.  I can love my neighbor – but trusting anyone is a challenge – especially when they have not yet proven themselves loyal.  With this in mind – I am concerned – everyday – if G-d and my neighbor can trust me.  President McKay said, “It is a greater honor to be trusted than to be loved.”

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, Grunt said:

I believe it depends on the request.  If it comes from a true desire to have a relationship with God, then I agree.

 

Who is to say what is a true desire – sometimes such things start as a small seed that is planted and needs care and nourishment for a time before there will be any fruit.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Those that serve in the military do not make very much – at least I didn’t while I served during the Vietnam era – I made more on the side while serving in the military than what I was paid to carry a M14.

As a side note – I have recently read several articles about good LDS kids coming home early from their missions because of depression.  When I was called on a mission, I had already served in the military – some of the young men I served with were baptized – some were contemplating baptism and were killed in Vietnam.  I faced difficulties on my mission but nothing like the difficulties of serving in the military.   My mission was easy.

For me – loving others is not so difficult – for me trust is what is what is hard to come by.  I can love my neighbor – but trusting anyone is a challenge – especially when they have not yet proven themselves loyal.  With this in mind – I am concerned – everyday – if G-d and my neighbor can trust me.  President McKay said, “It is a greater honor to be trusted than to be loved.”

 

The Traveler

My hyperbolic point, in case it wasn't clear or you're just choosing to be obtuse / ignore the point, is that how much money one can make does not justify a choice.  All else being equal, it may be an understandable factor in choosing one thing over another, but in and of itself, it does not justify a thing.

In other words, earning more money is not a good reason to grow tobacco.

(I was not equating tobacco farmers with hit men, in case that wasn't clear.)

[Traveler]

23 minutes ago, zil said:

My hyperbolic point, in case it wasn't clear or you're just choosing to be obtuse / ignore the point, is that how much money one can make does not justify a choice.  All else being equal, it may be an understandable factor in choosing one thing over another, but in and of itself, it does not justify a thing.

In other words, earning more money is not a good reason to grow tobacco.

(I was not equating tobacco farmers with hit men, in case that wasn't clear.)

 

It is a matter of how we see others.  My entire life I have been amazed what individuals will do when what they make or can make is on the line.  I have a good friend that is a doctor and I am very amazed at the compromises he is forced into every day for his practice and salary.   I know another doctor that has moved his practice to Mexico because of what the laws of this country were forcing on him.

As an engineer, I helped design and build curse missiles (among other things) for which I was paid much more than the tobacco farmer.  Also, it is interesting how much manual labor is required to grow tobacco.   Is it better to labor or to be on welfare handouts?

It would seem that regardless of what we do – we could have done something better – or there is something that would have been much worse.  We can always justify or condemn others on the basis that there are better or worse things.   What I am suggesting is that we turn this concept upside down.  Consider what we will for ourselves – but for others – think not so much on where they have been or even where they are – but on where they can go and what they can become.  That is how we should judge others and how we should encourage them.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Is it better to labor or to be on welfare handouts?

False dichotomy.  There are many ways to make an honest living.  What's more, I never suggested that he was wrong to choose to grow tobacco (though I'm certain you inferred that based on your replies).  I suggested that the profit difference does not justify the choice.  Your comment about the tobacco farmer implied that the mere profit increase justifies the behavior.  There may have been other things which justified his choice, but the money alone doesn't.

(And 100% of my comments are intended to comment on this one thing only - that the comparative profit is not by itself a good justification for a choice.)

[Traveler]

29 minutes ago, zil said:

False dichotomy.  There are many ways to make an honest living.  What's more, I never suggested that he was wrong to choose to grow tobacco (though I'm certain you inferred that based on your replies).  I suggested that the profit difference does not justify the choice.  Your comment about the tobacco farmer implied that the mere profit increase justifies the behavior.  There may have been other things which justified his choice, but the money alone doesn't.

(And 100% of my comments are intended to comment on this one thing only - that the comparative profit is not by itself a good justification for a choice.)

 

I have had the opportunity to know and deal with a tobacco farmer – my impression is that you have never had such an experience.  I am quite sure if you had – your opinion of them would be a little different.  In addition – since you brought it up - perhaps your experiences are radically different than mine but I have yet to encounter anything in this life that comes as a choice all by itself.  Or an all other things being equal kind of thing.

There was a time when I worked hard for the money I earned – and during that time I thought I could or would be happy or fulfilled sometime in the future.  Currently I am one of the few people I know that love and enjoy what I do – it may sound funny or strange – I don’t even know what I make.  I know it is a lot but I am at the age and circumstance that I could retire (in my 70's) – but I love my work and enjoy every day of it.  But I also realize that almost everybody I encounter – dislikes their work and look forward to the weekends or vacations or even taking sick leave if and whenever they can.  But then there are some I know that would rather work than deal with what is going on at their home – BTW – I work from my home.

I also know good members that love general conference and stake conference because they do not have to fulfill their regular calling - a vacation from calling.  What I do not understand is why anyone would do anything they do not enjoy?  I once thought that they would do it for money but I have discovered - as you seem to realize - doing anything for money is a very miserable way to live.

 

 

The Traveler

Edited October 27, 2017 by Traveler

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

I find your post thoughtful – Would we do all the things on @Vort's list if G-d commanded us?  It was Nephi that said he would go and do what the L-rd commanded – but then it was Nephi that questioned and hesitated when Laban lie drunk in the gutter and Nephi was commanded to kill a completely defenseless Laban.

I do not have all the answers for all the conditions and circumstances I face – let alone what many on this forum face or will face over their lifetime.   My primary effort is to encourage that we as saints live by covenant and not so much by doctrine (doctrine being a list – long or short - of do’s and don’ts).

BTW – when I lived in Maryland I came to know and befriend a tobacco farmer that himself hated smokers and tobacco smoke.   I asked him why he was a tobacco farmer?  His answer was that if he planted corn on his little 20 acres he would make about $5 per acre.  If he planted tobacco he would make about $500 per acre.  He asked what I would do if it multiplied my profet (or income) by 100?

 

The Traveler

I can only answer for myself, I would hope that I knew God and his love that I would do all he commanded. Nephi, in my opinion, had it easy in comparison to the Israelites were commanded to kill man, woman, and child, and I would hope that I would have the same mind as Nephi also, "Go and do what the Lord commanded." I think, in light of these commands, if we did not have some hesitancy, we are not human nor compassionate. Abraham I am sure wasn't of the mind and heart when commanded to kill Isaac, "Yes, lets get this done." I am sure he had hesitancy, similar to Nephi or to some degree, and yet moved forward because he "knew" God, and he "knew" who had all power.

Yes, me too. I wish I had all the answers to all the conditions and circumstances I have faced, and will face, but I don't. I agree, and there was only a short period of time where our brothers and sisters did live according to a list of do's and don't. All other periods they live as we do.

These are my thoughts pertaining to last paragraph. The situation provided, at least to me, would be different if your friend was LDS or not LDS. If I weren't LDS, I wouldn't have any issue with growing a tobacco farm, why would I? As LDS, now, that is irony. I think it the same irony to see LDS store owners sellings risque magazines in stores and selling alcoholic beverages. Why? It makes money, that is the only reason. So I find this to be a conundrum. We are commanded to not drink alcohol by covenant, but we will sale what we have been commanded not to partake of to others.

[Traveler]

10 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I can only answer for myself, I would hope that I knew God and his love that I would do all he commanded. Nephi, in my opinion, had it easy in comparison to the Israelites were commanded to kill man, woman, and child, and I would hope that I would have the same mind as Nephi also, "Go and do what the Lord commanded." I think, in light of these commands, if we did not have some hesitancy, we are not human nor compassionate. Abraham I am sure wasn't of the mind and heart when commanded to kill Isaac, "Yes, lets get this done." I am sure he had hesitancy, similar to Nephi or to some degree, and yet moved forward because he "knew" God, and he "knew" who had all power.

Yes, me too. I wish I had all the answers to all the conditions and circumstances I have faced, and will face, but I don't. I agree, and there was only a short period of time where our brothers and sisters did live according to a list of do's and don't. All other periods they live as we do.

These are my thoughts pertaining to last paragraph. The situation provided, at least to me, would be different if your friend was LDS or not LDS. If I weren't LDS, I wouldn't have any issue with growing a tobacco farm, why would I? As LDS, now, that is irony. I think it the same irony to see LDS store owners sellings risque magazines in stores and selling alcoholic beverages. Why? It makes money, that is the only reason. So I find this to be a conundrum. We are commanded to not drink alcohol by covenant, but we will sale what we have been commanded not to partake of to others.

 

Since you are a reasonable thinker – would you invite a tobacco farmer to attend church with you?  And if he was a member that held the priesthood would that change your view of the oath and covenant of the priesthood in D&C section 84?

I think I could and would – but I also think I would take every opportunity to suggest he find a different profession.  Kind of like the suggestions I make on the forum concerning various things. 

I believe in comforting the afflicted – but then I also believe in afflicting the comforted (those that are confortable). 

 

The Traveler

[zil]

28 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am quite sure if you had – your opinion of them would be a little different.

Sigh.  My opinion is not of them.  It is of using money to justify behavior.  If "more money" is a valid justification for behavior, then if one can make "more money" being a hit man, one is justified in so doing.  If one can make "more money" by cheating widows with cheap shingles, then cheating widows by lying to them about the quality of the shingles you're going to install on their roofs is justified.

That is my one and only point.

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have had the opportunity to know and deal with a tobacco farmer – my impression is that you have never had such an experience.  I am quite sure if you had – your opinion of them would be a little different.

I don't believe zil has expressed any opinion about tobacco farmers, except that the relative profitability of tobacco does not justify (or condemn) growing tobacco.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

curse missiles

I'm interested to know how these are supposed to work.. 

 

Traveler, I don't usually mess with your typos (dyslexia was it?) but I thought I'd do this one because I think you're getting into tunnel vision on your side of the conversation which, I think, is preventing you from going on the same wavelength to the discussion at hand - which is not typical of you.  So, Traveler, step back a little, reset the board, and read through the discussion again and see if you see what I see as discussions on different wavelengths.

[anatess2]

My gift to @zil.

[zil]

14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My gift to @zil.

FABULOUS!  Love it!!

[Traveler]

56 minutes ago, zil said:

Sigh.  My opinion is not of them.  It is of using money to justify behavior.  If "more money" is a valid justification for behavior, then if one can make "more money" being a hit man, one is justified in so doing.  If one can make "more money" by cheating widows with cheap shingles, then cheating widows by lying to them about the quality of the shingles you're going to install on their roofs is justified.

That is my one and only point.

 

I know that you are saying this is your only point – it is not that I completely disagree because I mostly agree.  I just wonder if you and others are really ready and willing to go anywhere and everywhere this path may lead.   If there is just once in a million that is not valid – then the point is missing the point – or as others are concerned – the target.

 

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

Since you are a reasonable thinker – would you invite a tobacco farmer to attend church with you?  And if he was a member that held the priesthood would that change your view of the oath and covenant of the priesthood in D&C section 84?

I think I could and would – but I also think I would take every opportunity to suggest he find a different profession.  Kind of like the suggestions I make on the forum concerning various things. 

I believe in comforting the afflicted – but then I also believe in afflicting the comforted (those that are confortable). 

The Traveler

Yes, I would invite a tobacco farmer to attend church. I would invite any friend/neighbor to come to church if I wasn't so intimidated by rejection.

Two part question, let me split it up. No, my view would not change regarding the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood. If he were a member, then the irony remains. We won't partake of something God has instructed us not to partake of, but we will freely sell it. If I were a close friend I would encourage finding a new profession.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

If Jesus was to call at your home today (because of a great need) – You are two busy driving your own child to soccer practice?

The question is not whether one should drop driving their child to soccer to help another in great need. The question is whether one should drop taking care of the needs of their child in order to drive others to soccer. 

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I think you're getting into tunnel vision on your side of the conversation [...]  which is not typical of you.  

I literally almost choked when I read this.

Edit: And by "literally" I mean "figuratively". Just so we're clear.

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I literally almost choked when I read this.

Edit: And by "literally" I mean "figuratively". Just so we're clear.

What do you mean by "clear"? Because if it's like "literally", then I think we have success.

[Sunday21]

Didn’t some leader tell us that we should not prejudge who to invite to church events? 

[Maureen]

On 27/10/2017 at 8:46 AM, Traveler said:

...when I lived in Maryland I came to know and befriend a tobacco farmer that himself hated smokers and tobacco smoke.   I asked him why he was a tobacco farmer?  His answer was that if he planted corn on his little 20 acres he would make about $5 per acre.  If he planted tobacco he would make about $500 per acre.  He asked what I would do if it multiplied my profet (or income) by 100?...

On 27/10/2017 at 10:00 AM, zil said:

...There are many ways to make an honest living.  What's more, I never suggested that he was wrong to choose to grow tobacco (though I'm certain you inferred that based on your replies).  I suggested that the profit difference does not justify the choice.  Your comment about the tobacco farmer implied that the mere profit increase justifies the behavior.  There may have been other things which justified his choice, but the money alone doesn't.

(And 100% of my comments are intended to comment on this one thing only - that the comparative profit is not by itself a good justification for a choice.)

 

If you take the tobacco farmer example literally, then I would assume that the farmer chose tobacco for survival purposes. What's more reasonable, making a living off of $100 or $10,000. And why would tobacco farming not be an honest living, growing tobacco is not against the law. And due to the negative view of cigarette smoking, I'm sure tobacco revenue has suffered. Just because tobacco can be harmful in certain ways doesn't mean it has to be harmful in everything. Tobacco can be modified and used as biofuel. It doesn't always have to be either all good or all bad.

M.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Maureen

[mirkwood]

55 minutes ago, Maureen said:

 And why would tobacco farming not be an honest living

Maureen, you are on an LDS board and you already know the answer to this.  Give it a rest.

Edited October 29, 2017 by mirkwood

[Maureen]

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

Maureen, you are on an LDS board and you already know the answer to this.  Give it a rest.

Seriously? You think there's a connection between an LDS message board and a tobacco farmer? Are you saying if a Mormon was a tobacco farmer, he would be excommunicated?

M.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Maureen

[mirkwood]

Are you trying to tell me you don't see how LDS would view another LDS selling tobacco as not making an honest living?  *smh*