Tattoos and Other Things We Could Use More of at Church

[Sunday21]

@Traveler. Thanks for sharing!

[zil]

[Lindy]

This was both an entertaining and thought provoking post with all the replies, opinions, and humor.

But, I do wonder what would be done for those who are only going for the shock value to others in church and have no intention to become a better person.

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, zil said:

I fully agree with Inky, we certainly don't want any fountain pens, or parts thereof, in our churches (or anywhere else)!

[Traveler]

 

It is my opinion that anyone that wants a relationship with G-d deserves my assistance.  I believe that I am under covenant to do so.  Part of my covenant requires me to encourage others to discipline themselves and live by covenant with G-d.  Some think that “Christians” should not provide services for a LGBT community event – I am of the other mind – I believe anyone that comes to a believer of Christ – we should accommodate them as we would anyone and everyone else – standing as a witness of Christ.  And as long as they are open to us and what we believe we should be open to them.  I really do not believe that the LGBT community intends add profit to any business they do not believe support their lifestyle.  So, if they come to me I will help.  If they do not want my help – then they can choose who they will associate with.

One point I would make.  It is my experience that anyone with gender confusion that seeks a relationship with G-d will be cut off by those that support gender confusion.  If they cannot find friends among the disciples of Christ and are treated instead with scorn – where will they turn and who will treat them with love and kindness?  Their old friends will likely wish them dead and accuse them of all kinds of things – their only choice will be to commit suicide or return to old ways and forget trying anything else.   

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Some think that “Christians” should not provide services for a LGBT community event – I am of the other mind – I believe anyone that comes to a believer of Christ – we should accommodate them as we would anyone and everyone else – standing as a witness of Christ.  And as long as they are open to us and what we believe we should be open to them.

This sounds reasonable, but does not stand up very long to scrutiny. Which of the following acts do you believe the Savior would perform?

1. Congratulate a homosexual couple on their "engagement".
2. Attend said homosexual couple's "wedding".
3. Give said homosexual couple advice on effectively using sexual intimacy to strengthen their bond.
4. Provide a heroin addict with a safe space to shoot up, complete with medical staffing to oversee the injections.
5. Help out as one of the medical staff.
6. Devise a new kind of heroin that still gives the "high" and the escape, but lessens the physical cost of usage.
7. Manfully stand in defense of a woman's right to choose death for her fetus.
8. Drive a pregnant woman to an abortatorium.
9. Perform the actual abortion, so as to make sure no harm comes to the "patient".
10. Bless the tobacco farmer that he has an extra-abundant crop, so as to avoid bankuptcy.
11. Sharpen the mental acuity of the casino owner so he can increase his legal profits.
12. Help the street dealer sell his cocaine at a higher price so he can pay off the thugs threatening his life.

It's fun and easy to proclaim that we should be "compassionate" and that we should "help others" even when we have some fundamental disagreements with what they're doing. I think we have a far deeper, more important obligation to live by the standards God has given us and to encourage and help others to do so, as well.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not taking you to task, Traveler. I'm just giving my reaction to the ideas I understood as being put forth.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Vort

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

This sounds reasonable, but does not stand up very long to scrutiny. Which of the following acts do you believe the Savior would perform?

1. Congratulate a homosexual couple on their "engagement".
2. Attend said homosexual couple's "wedding".
3. Give said homosexual couple advice on effectively using sexual intimacy to strengthen their bond.
4. Provide a heroin addict with a safe space to shoot up, complete with medical staffing to oversee the injections.
5. Help out as one of the medical staff.
6. Devise a new kind of heroin that still gives the "high" and the escape, but lessens the physical cost of usage.
7. Manfully stand in defense of a woman's right to choose death for her fetus.
8. Drive a pregnant woman to an abortatorium.
9. Perform the actual abortion, so as to make sure no harm comes to the "patient".
10. Bless the tobacco farmer that he has an extra-abundant crop, so as to avoid bankuptcy.
11. Sharpen the mental acuity of the casino owner so he can increase his legal profits.
12. Help the street dealer sell his cocaine at a higher price so he can pay off the thugs threatening his life.

It's fun and easy to proclaim that we should be "compassionate" and that we should "help others" even when we have some fundamental disagreements with what they're doing. I think we have a far deeper, more important obligation to live by the standards God has given us and to encourage and help others to do so, as well.

 

Who were the most despised of the Jewish religious culture?  To even stand in the vicinity of such spiritual scum (while trying to ignore them) would render one unclean and not able to enter the courtyards of the temple or step in a synagogue.   The spiritual scum and the most unworthy of all; when Jesus walked – were called Samaritans.    

The real question that ought to be asked is – who is our neighbor?  (in regards to who do we love as we do ourselves?)  - I do not think anyone rejects the act of homosexuality more than me or is more offended by someone to so aproaching me.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 26, 2017 by Traveler

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Who were the most despised of the Jewish religious culture?  To even stand in the vicinity of such spiritual scum (while trying to ignore them) would render one unclean and not able to enter the courtyards of the temple or step in a synagogue.   The spiritual scum and the most unworthy of all; when Jesus walked – were called Samaritans.    

The real question that ought to be asked is – who is our neighbor?  (in regards to who do we love as we do ourselves?)  - I do not think anyone rejects the act of homosexuality more than me or is more offended by someone to so aproaching me.

I don't understand. I agree with the above-quoted material, but how does that apply to my question about which of the listed items Jesus might do?

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't understand. I agree with the above-quoted material, but how does that apply to my question about which of the listed items Jesus might do?

 

I do not disagree -

What you would do for your best friend or only child – you should do for everyone.   Of course, we should not encourage anyone to commit sins but rather to repent and be baptized.  What amounts to encouraging someone to repent and be baptized?  I personally try to avoid making a list because what is necessary for a certain lost sheep may not follow conventional wisdom – as per what Isaiah looked for in marriage.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 26, 2017 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

What you would do for your best friend or only child – you should do for everyone.  

No.

[Traveler]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No.

What or who is your neighbor?  And who is your  Samaritan?  That "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self".

 

The Traveler

[omegaseamaster75]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

This sounds reasonable, but does not stand up very long to scrutiny. Which of the following acts do you believe the Savior would perform?

1. Congratulate a homosexual couple on their "engagement".
2. Attend said homosexual couple's "wedding".
3. Give said homosexual couple advice on effectively using sexual intimacy to strengthen their bond.
4. Provide a heroin addict with a safe space to shoot up, complete with medical staffing to oversee the injections.
5. Help out as one of the medical staff.
6. Devise a new kind of heroin that still gives the "high" and the escape, but lessens the physical cost of usage.
7. Manfully stand in defense of a woman's right to choose death for her fetus.
8. Drive a pregnant woman to an abortatorium.
9. Perform the actual abortion, so as to make sure no harm comes to the "patient".
10. Bless the tobacco farmer that he has an extra-abundant crop, so as to avoid bankuptcy.
11. Sharpen the mental acuity of the casino owner so he can increase his legal profits.
12. Help the street dealer sell his cocaine at a higher price so he can pay off the thugs threatening his life.

It's fun and easy to proclaim that we should be "compassionate" and that we should "help others" even when we have some fundamental disagreements with what they're doing. I think we have a far deeper, more important obligation to live by the standards God has given us and to encourage and help others to do so, as well.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not taking you to task, Traveler. I'm just giving my reaction to the ideas I understood as being put forth.

Your examples are juvenile and not relevant. The answer to all of them is that if Jesus were here he would not participate in any of those actions and those who would do such things would hear his word and repent quickly of their sinful ways. D&C 101:24-25

24 And every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed;

25 And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth.

Point of fact is Jesus is not currently here in body, he has left us to tend his sheep, no we should not help heroin addicts shoot up, nor drive women to abortion clinics, but some of your points are ridiculous. Example: bless the tobacco farmer...just silly and yes I would pray for him so that he could avoid bankruptcy pray tell where lies the sin in growing tobacco?  So someone owns a casino so what? is that person not allowed to provide for his family? Attend a homosexuals wedding all day long I would. 

We should be compassionate towards others. Being compassionate does not mean we condone or agree with the sin, but we are to be examples of a better way to do things a beacon on a hill for those who wander in darkness. How can we do that if we shun all with whom we disagree? 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

What or who is your neighbor?

Not someone who I'd drive to soccer practice every day.

The reality is that practicality does not allow for it. I cannot drive everyone to soccer practice every day.

There is a reason that families are our first priority. I would simply not do for every one of my fellow men out there the same as I would for my own child -- and that is how it's meant to be, or family means absolutely nothing.

[mirkwood]

8 hours ago, zil said:

 

[zil]

Just now, mirkwood said:

 

Gaaaahhhh! My eyes! My eyes!

[Grunt]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

It is my opinion that anyone that wants a relationship with G-d deserves my assistance.  I believe that I am under covenant to do so.  Part of my covenant requires me to encourage others to discipline themselves and live by covenant with G-d.  Some think that “Christians” should not provide services for a LGBT community event – I am of the other mind – I believe anyone that comes to a believer of Christ – we should accommodate them as we would anyone and everyone else – standing as a witness of Christ.  And as long as they are open to us and what we believe we should be open to them.  I really do not believe that the LGBT community intends add profit to any business they do not believe support their lifestyle.  So, if they come to me I will help.  If they do not want my help – then they can choose who they will associate with.

One point I would make.  It is my experience that anyone with gender confusion that seeks a relationship with G-d will be cut off by those that support gender confusion.  If they cannot find friends among the disciples of Christ and are treated instead with scorn – where will they turn and who will treat them with love and kindness?  Their old friends will likely wish them dead and accuse them of all kinds of things – their only choice will be to commit suicide or return to old ways and forget trying anything else.   

 

The Traveler

I believe it depends on the request.  If it comes from a true desire to have a relationship with God, then I agree.

[askandanswer]

28 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

Wish I could like this more than once!

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Your examples are juvenile and not relevant. The answer to all of them is that if Jesus were here he would not participate in any of those actions and those who would do such things would hear his word and repent quickly of their sinful ways. D&C 101:24-25

24 And every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed;

25 And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth.

Point of fact is Jesus is not currently here in body, he has left us to tend his sheep, no we should not help heroin addicts shoot up, nor drive women to abortion clinics, but some of your points are ridiculous. Example: bless the tobacco farmer...just silly and yes I would pray for him so that he could avoid bankruptcy pray tell where lies the sin in growing tobacco?  So someone owns a casino so what? is that person not allowed to provide for his family? Attend a homosexuals wedding all day long I would. 

We should be compassionate towards others. Being compassionate does not mean we condone or agree with the sin, but we are to be examples of a better way to do things a beacon on a hill for those who wander in darkness. How can we do that if we shun all with whom we disagree? 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

@Vort was responding to this particular part of Traveler's response, "Some think that “Christians” should not provide services for a LGBT community event – I am of the other mind – I believe anyone that comes to a believer of Christ – we should accommodate them as we would anyone and everyone else – standing as a witness of Christ."

His examples were relevant to the statement he quoted; although, I would say the the tobacco farmer and casino owner examples aren't relevant (or better said not the greatest example in relation to Traveler's statement), and there wouldn't be anything wrong in praying for someone whether or not we agree with their business. This would be similar, as to my minds eyes, saying, "I wouldn't pray for a lesbian couples child who was sick even if they asked." We would offend God if we did not pray for his little ones.

There is irony though in the following, "no we should not... drive women to abortion clinics, but..." I would, "Attend a homosexuals wedding all day long I would." So you draw the line on "life" and that is a good thing, but you are still supporting sin. It obviously is your choice which sin you support (and by attending their wedding and congratulating the union we do indeed "condone" the sin), but does not make Vorts comment juvenile or irrelevant. These examples were very much relevant to Traveler's mentioned statement. Attending a SSM doesn't make you more compassionate and non-judgemental then someone who chooses not to attend.

The answer to most of the questions would be as such, "if Jesus were here he would not participate in any of those actions and those who would do such things would hear his word and repent quickly of their sinful ways." Anytime our lives are contrary to the will of God it is wisdom that we hear his voice and repent quickly. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In light of compassion and judging, as with anyone who mentions judging, draw your mind to these word, "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye." Notice God's reprimand is for us to first pull the beam from our own eye in order to see clearly to cast out a mote from thy brother's eye, which requires "judgment" to recognize the "mote" is still there.

Personally, I would love to see Christ live today, and how he would respond, but we can see how the world views the Lord's prophets and servants and if this is the way they view them, they would treat the Master no less, but worse.

 

 

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, mirkwood said:

 

"Wish I could like this more than once!"

 

@askandanswer now you can!!

[lostinwater]

i don't think Jesus ever lets the sin become more important than the sinner.  Or bigotry become more important than the bigot, depending on which side of the fence you are on.  Easier for Jesus to do, knowing the hearts of people, but for the rest of us, extremely difficult - and for many things, means we have to really think each situation through.  Much easier to isolate ourselves from those we disagree with, and justify that isolation by making unilateral assumptions about their motives.

Both sides of most hot-button issues do this (myself included).

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, zil said:

Gaaaahhhh! My eyes! My eyes!

 

 

[mirkwood]

7 hours ago, zil said:

Gaaaahhhh! My eyes! My eyes!

[NightSG]

11 hours ago, Vort said:

This sounds reasonable, but does not stand up very long to scrutiny. Which of the following acts do you believe the Savior would perform?

<SNIP>

Provide a heroin addict with a safe space to shoot up, complete with medical staffing to oversee the injections.

Help out as one of the medical staff.

Devise a new kind of heroin that still gives the "high" and the escape, but lessens the physical cost of usage.

Uh, we talkin' 'bout the same Jesus?  The one who could instantly heal the addiction without a trace?

[Vort]

5 hours ago, NightSG said:

Uh, we talkin' 'bout the same Jesus?  The one who could instantly heal the addiction without a trace?

Yes. Same Jesus. Would he do those things?

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Not someone who I'd drive to soccer practice every day.

The reality is that practicality does not allow for it. I cannot drive everyone to soccer practice every day.

There is a reason that families are our first priority. I would simply not do for every one of my fellow men out there the same as I would for my own child -- and that is how it's meant to be, or family means absolutely nothing.

 

If Jesus was to call at your home today (because of a great need) – You are two busy driving your own child to soccer practice?

 “In as much as you have done it unto the least of my brethren you have done it unto me”

I believe it is a matter of sacrifice – one of the greatest spiritual experiences I had with my children disrupted and ruined our (planned) activity when we assisted (likely saved from death) someone involved in an accident that was in critical need.  It was not something any of us noticed driving to our destination but rather a strong spiritual sense to alter our plan.  I do not believe we serve unless we make ourselves available.  The operative word is make

Before you think I am sarcastic – my question was – Who is your neighbor?  It does not appear that you understood the question with the answer “Not someone who I’d drive to soccer practice every day.”   ?????

 

The Traveler