Not earned, its a gift

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[brlenox]

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Elder Holland said that perfection is received as a gift from heaven...."we wont earn it", but then later in his talk he contradicts himself by saying "if we persevere, somewhere in eternity our refinement will be finish and complete, which is the new testament meaning of perfection".

https://youtu.be/KyL3beFoswg?t=1m54s

So what started off as, we cant earn perfection because its a free gift, turned into the free gift that is earned if we work and stay the course (persevere). Im confused.

It's like most gifts.  The gift doesn't manifest because you actually practice the exercise of that gift but the Lord observing the diligence with which you are striving blesses you with something that you simply do not have the capacity to create.  Faith operates on the same principle.  You strive to exercise faith but of yourself you do not increase it.  However if you are obedient and striving the Lord gives you an increase in faith because of your efforts. 

[brlenox]

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

For one person, persevering means to burn incense once a year on new years day at a buddhist temple.

For another it could be to live a life long journey as a nun.

For another it means to be married and sealed in the LDS temple and then you have the many LDS that never make it to the temple.

All these are examples of people persevering in the capacity that is right for them, and in the end all will be perfected.

Egocentric thinking.  It really matters not what it is for one person or this person or another person.  What matters is the measurement that God will use to determine successful compliance with the laws of his kingdom. If you seek to be perfected he has outlined according to the dictates of the plan of salvation certain requisites.  Burn all the incense you want, wear the habit for a lifetime, and do not make the covenants in the temple of marriage and you will not see eternal life and, by most definitions, will fail of perfection.

Edited October 23, 2017 by brlenox
for the want of a comma

[laronius]

In the scriptures the Lord talks about the ability to "receive" a gift. When it comes to things of a spiritual nature receiving is not simply about willingness.

D&C 88:33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

When God perfects us we are the ones being acted upon but because God compels no one to obey (or in this case receive) we must allow it to happen. The way we do this is through conformity to law. As we act in accordance to law we invite the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost into our lives. This power both cleanses us of past sins and over time completely changes our nature and disposition from a carnal sensual man/woman to a man or woman more like God. So while perfection is a gift we can only through obedience develop the capacity to receive it.

[Traveler]

 

I believe there are several problems concerning salvation and exaltation.  Part of the problem is that many do not understand the spiritual nature of things and are stuck on their pre-conceived notion of things.  I will try to put forth my understanding:

First – perfect does not mean to not ever have or be associated with a flaw – In the scriptural sense I believe perfect is more about what a person has or has come into possession of and not about what they do not have.  So, it is not about not having any flaws – it is about being whole, holy, complete or fully engaged or vested.

Second – I believe there are misconceptions concerning about a free spiritual gift from G-d.  Just because something is free does not mean there are no strings attached.  This is so concerning the blessings (even free blessings or gifts) of G-d.  Let me explain my understanding.  Suppose that your father came to you and said, “Son if you will get straight “A’s” for your senior year of high school – I will provide for you a free gift of a brand-new Corvette.  Many in religion do not understand what free means – they interpret free according to what they want to believe so they think that by studying and getting straight “A’s” they earned the Corvette.  They did not earn a single penny of the Corvette.  If they took their report card to any dealership and said, “Where is my free Corvette?”  They would be laughed to scorn and they would go home without even a Corvette tail light – let alone the whole car.  The point is that the Corvette is not nor was it ever free and your getting straight “A’s” did not earn a Corvette.  G-d provided for you something which he pays for under terms he has defined which is only connected to the gift because he owns the Corvette and is willing to give it freely under his terms.

I understand that many want to trifle with G-d with the idea that if there are any strings the gift is not really free.  They demand that their terms apply and so they say free is free.  Fine – then so think and so I believe they are wrong and such logic profits them nothing – so they think they can bargain and demand what they think they have earned – which is nothing and so they are never able to receive the gift based on the principles of the blessing or gift as @laronius pointed out in his post the precedes mine.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 23, 2017 by Traveler

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[Midwest LDS]

I've always felt that the entirety of the Gospel is centred around Jesus Christ and his grace and the hardest commandment enduring to the end. We are saved solely by the grace of Christ.  2 Nephi 25:23 "for we know that it is by grace we are saved" followed by an important comma "after all that we can do." I often see members make the mistake of feeling like they have to earn their salvation by doing a certain number of good deeds. And when we've done that certain number, Our Savior puts in a little at the top and then we are saved. That's not what the scripture means. We are saved wholly by the Grace of Jesus Christ. But how do we access that gift? What does all we can do mean? Heavenly Father explains the blessings of enduring to the end himself in 2 Nephi 31:15, one of the few instances in scripture where the Father himself speaks "And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Elder Holland was expounding on how we endure to the end. We don't quit. We exercise faith in Jesus Christ and we keep trying to follow his commandments no matter how many times we fall. If it's the thousandth time we've fallen than we get back up, drag ourselves to church and try again. Because if we do Christ will save us! That's what he means by a free gift. He doesn't mean it will be given to us just for sitting here. He means it will be given to us even though we don't deserve it, because we didn't quit. If we have some sin we haven't overcome yet, even if it's been thirty years, then we keep trying to overcome it. That's the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We will be saved even though we never got close to perfecting ourselves. But we didn't quit, we didn't throw in the towel, we trusted Christ could save us even though we kept falling down, and so Christ saves us as he promised he would. That is a wonderful promise and should ease anyone's mind who is struggling to be better.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[zil]

1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

If it's the thousandth time we've fallen than we get back up, drag ourselves to church and try again.

Waterman Laureat, fine nib, with Diamine Classic Green; Sailor Professional Gear Slim, fine nib, with Sailor Sei-Boku.

[laronius]

5 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

So is the correct word to use, APPRECIATION?

Those of us who are perfectly fine and happy with staying at the bottom hill will not appreciate the "gift" or opportunity God is offering us to move to the top of the hill and will find no use for the gift?

But for those that try to march up the hill and only make it half way, when presented with the free gift will gladly accept it as they are appreciative of it and understand the glory of being on top of the hill?

Perfection is not a gift that is simply handed to us, rather it is the gift of becoming something, becoming like God. God does not command us to be obedient because that is the prerequisite he has set for him blessing us with eternal life but because obedience to law is a big part of what it means to live like God. An essential part of God's identity comes from his complete conformity to divine law. So for us to become like him we too must conform to divine law. Commandments are basically God saying "Here's what I do, so you need to do this too." So like Elder Wilcox says, it's not about earning heaven so much as it is about learning heaven. But our impure natures (or I would say our incomplete intelligence) does not allow us to always live just as he does and so this is where grace comes in as spoken of by @Midwest LDS. Grace is an enabling power, an increase in light/intelligence that increases our desire and willingness to conform to divine law. But it still remains in our court to apply this grace and to act accordingly. So in answer to your question, yes. Appreciation really lies at the heart of our ability/willingness to receive what God is offering to us. If we do not sufficiently value what God is offering we will not be willing to conform to the higher law of the Celestial Kingdom but will elect to conform to the laws of a lesser existence.

D&C 78:17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you;

18 And ye cannot bear all things now; nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours.

19 And he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious; and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundred fold, yea, more.

Edited October 23, 2017 by laronius

[estradling75]

The scriptures have many things to say about gifts..

For this subject I like Doctrine and Covenants 88 : 33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

For this scripture I liken to myself by imaging Christmas day with my kids.  Some gifts like underwear and socks I expect to get an underwhelmed reaction to.  The Best gifts are the one were the child's whole world stops and they rearrange everything to make to play or otherwise use it right now.  In my mind that is a perfect example of "receiving and rejoicing in that which was given."  But sometimes I give a gift I expect the kid to love and it gets an underwhelming reaction.  It gets pushed to the side and they move on to the next, to me this is the perfect example of "Received not the gift... rejoicing not in which was given."

So in the question asked by the OP... God has promised us the gift of eternal life, and perfection.  With this knowledge did/does our whole world stop?  Did we/Do we rearrange everything in our lives to make room for it (also known as work) while rejoicing in it?  Or do we act underwhelmed by it, act like we do not really value it at all? 

We do not "earn" the gift.  But if we show by our actions and attitude(again called work) that we do not want it... then the gift will be withheld. Because it makes no sense for God to give an unwanted gift a gift that will not be used.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by estradling75

[brlenox]

7 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Is it possible that everyone will be made perfect from the free gift of God but the degrees of salvation and exaltation obtained can vary?

from my understanding salvation is the ability to make it to heaven, exaltation is the ability to advance within heaven?

The ideology of "be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" in my mind sets the standard for the perfection that is expected of mankind.  I suspect one could be perfectly telestial or perfectly terrestrial but in the comparison to perfectly Celestial would fall short of the ideal of perfection that is what the atonement, in its fullest effect, was desired to provide.  

Additionally there is potential for advancement within each degree of glory but there is potential for "continuation of the Seeds" only within the celestial kingdom.

[brlenox]

3 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

I've always felt that the entirety of the Gospel is centred around Jesus Christ and his grace and the hardest commandment enduring to the end. We are saved solely by the grace of Christ.  2 Nephi 25:23 "for we know that it is by grace we are saved" followed by an important comma "after all that we can do." I often see members make the mistake of feeling like they have to earn their salvation by doing a certain number of good deeds. And when we've done that certain number, Our Savior puts in a little at the top and then we are saved. That's not what the scripture means. We are saved wholly by the Grace of Jesus Christ. But how do we access that gift? What does all we can do mean? Heavenly Father explains the blessings of enduring to the end himself in 2 Nephi 31:15, one of the few instances in scripture where the Father himself speaks "And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Elder Holland was expounding on how we endure to the end. We don't quit. We exercise faith in Jesus Christ and we keep trying to follow his commandments no matter how many times we fall. If it's the thousandth time we've fallen than we get back up, drag ourselves to church and try again. Because if we do Christ will save us! That's what he means by a free gift. He doesn't mean it will be given to us just for sitting here. He means it will be given to us even though we don't deserve it, because we didn't quit. If we have some sin we haven't overcome yet, even if it's been thirty years, then we keep trying to overcome it. That's the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We will be saved even though we never got close to perfecting ourselves. But we didn't quit, we didn't throw in the towel, we trusted Christ could save us even though we kept falling down, and so Christ saves us as he promised he would. That is a wonderful promise and should ease anyone's mind who is struggling to be better.

It is possible that we can refine the expectations of "all that we can do" further by the usage of the phrase in a later Book of Mormon setting where an additional thought of clarity is added to the sentiment:

 

Quote

 

Alma 24:11

11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

 

Thus the implication is that because of our natures of being fallen man that it is genuinely all that we can do to repent and turn away from our sins. Thus we find ourselves exactly where you have stated receiving the grace of God as a result of repentance which is oft declared a key element of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by brlenox

[laronius]

33 minutes ago, brlenox said:

It is possible that we can refine the expectations of "all that we can do" further by the usage of the phrase in a later Book of Mormon setting where an additional thought of clarity is added to the sentiment:

 

Thus the implication is that because of our natures of being fallen man that it is genuinely all that we can do to repent and turn away from our sins. Thus we find ourselves exactly where you have stated receiving the grace of God as a result of repentance which is oft declared a key element of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

I would also add 2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

Here it equates the all we can do with "reconcile yourselves to the will of God" which is a major component in the repentance process. It is only in our willingness to align our wills with God that we create an environment where his grace can actually be used. When you think about it, what can we do without God's grace when His grace supports us in our very breath? Absolutely nothing, EXCEPT make the decision to accept or reject God's will for us. That is literally "all we can do." That is the full extent of our independence from God. And to the extent that we are able to do this we are able to receive of His grace, little by little until we are perfectly aligned with God's will and thus living as he does.

Edited October 23, 2017 by laronius

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, laronius said:

I would also add 2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

Here it equates the all we can do with "reconcile yourselves to the will of God" which is a major component in the repentance process. It is only in our willingness to align our wills with God that we create an environment where his grace can actually be used. When you think about it, what can we do without God's grace when His grace supports us in our very breath? Absolutely nothing, EXCEPT make the decision to accept or reject God's will for us. That is literally "all we can do." That is the full extent of our independence from God. And to the extent that we are able to do this we are able to receive of His grace, little by little until we are perfectly aligned with God's will and thus living as he does.

 

I am not saying that I disagree but there are what I could call pitfalls on this path or thought.  What I would ask is how those that are strong proponents of agency or free will reconcile the depth of our choice and our individual investment in being “Saved” in opposition to saved by grace only.   Obviously, there is something brought to the table by those that believe and are saved as opposed to those that are not saved but condemned (Damned).   Scripture tells us that every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ – but we also know than not every knee that bends and every tongue that confesses that Jesus is the Christ will be saved but that some will weep rather than rejoice.  Something does not quite fit when the glass slipper is being forced on the ugly stepsister.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

I am not saying that I disagree but there are what I could call pitfalls on this path or thought.  What I would ask is how those that are strong proponents of agency or free will reconcile the depth of our choice and our individual investment in being “Saved” in opposition to saved by grace only.   Obviously, there is something brought to the table by those that believe and are saved as opposed to those that are not saved but condemned (Damned).   Scripture tells us that every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ – but we also know than not every knee that bends and every tongue that confesses that Jesus is the Christ will be saved but that some will weep rather than rejoice.  Something does not quite fit when the glass slipper is being forced on the ugly stepsister.

 

The Traveler

We need to be clear about what we are talking about when we speak of eternal life. Eternal life is life both with God and like God. We perfectly obey all the divine laws that God exhibits. Obedience is not simply a qualification of eternal life, it is the definition of eternal life. To have eternal life is to perfectly obey all divine laws. But in our current state we simply cannot pull that off, not in a thousand lifetimes. But through the grace of God we can become clean and our natures can change so that it does become possible for us.

 

 

[priesthoodpower]

Thanks so much Im learning a lot on this subject and putting together a powerpoint to teach my kids during FHE.

[mordorbund]

10 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Thanks so much Im learning a lot on this subject and putting together a powerpoint to teach my kids during FHE.

Powerpoint? You might want to ask @NeuroTypical for some pointers so it's not a snooze-fest.

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[bytebear]

The atonement is a gift from God.  Jesus already paid for my sins.  But that doesn't mean I am saved. 

[laronius]

13 hours ago, bytebear said:

The atonement is a gift from God.  Jesus already paid for my sins.  But that doesn't mean I am saved. 

From spiritual death no but from physical death yes.

[laronius]

I think these scriptures are helpful too in understanding exactly how the grace of God works in our lives.

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

I think the wording here is crucial. God's grace isn't earned rather what is being said is that God's grace is not "sufficient" unless we humble ourselves or in other words submit our wills to him. The reason for this is that grace's role is not to simply change your status from unsaved to saved but to strengthen us in those areas of our lives where we are spiritually weak. Becoming stronger spiritually then allows us to do more good, to more fully keep all of God's commandments. But a proud person is not willing to conform to God's laws therefore strengthening him through grace would not be sufficient to save him because he simply would not change even with the increased ability to do better. So for grace to save us we must be willing to humble ourselves, have faith in God and then act in greater obedience when his enabling power of the atonement comes upon us.

The last counsel Moroni gives before hiding up the plates was on this same topic.

Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

I don't think Moroni is saying we must deny ourselves of all ungodliness before receiving of God's grace, rather that once we come unto Christ, through humility and faith, we have access to his grace, through which we will have the power to deny ourselves of all ungodliness and ultimately become sanctified in Christ and eventually perfected. But grace only makes it possible and that is the gift, the gift of potential. The rest is a matter of us simply (though not easily) achieving that potential. Or as Paul put it:

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

[Guest]

There's no confusion here.  It's really just about semantics and attitude.

I'll repeat my rope analogy.  If you are stuck in a pit, and someone throws a rope to you, what saved you?  And what was earned?

The man who threw you the rope saved you.  You don't thank the rope.  You don't pat yourself on the back for climbing up the rope.  You're supposed to be grateful that the man was around and had a rope to send to you.  And you gratefully grabbed the rope and started climbing.

Because the rope is there for us, and the man holding the rope is there for us, what should we have to worry about?  We need to grab the rope and then we need to climb up the rope.  That is why we so often emphasize the "work" we have to do.  The rest has been provided to us through hearing the word, having faith, performing ordinances, and making covenants (grabbing the rope).  Now we just need to KEEP those covenants (climb the rope).

Who in his right mind would say we "earned our way out of the pit" by climbing up the rope?

Edited October 27, 2017 by Guest