Would you let your child marry one?


prisonchaplain
 Share

Recommended Posts

48 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You are being very kind. Growing up I was taught-perhaps incorrectly, maybe I misheard (or maybe not, who knows?) "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus". Which roughly means "outside the church there is no salvation". Like the old joke "No Catholic believes the pope is really infallible" I'm not sure how many Catholics really believe that, and I'm not sure about the church teaching post mid-90's, but I'm guessing that many, many catholics believe that only catholics go to heaven.

For at least a couple of decades the Catholic Church has considered Protestants to be "separated brethren."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

For at least a couple of decades the Catholic Church has considered Protestants to be "separated brethren."

It might be church policy, but I'd love to see an informal poll of how Catholics feel about it. The church going ones probably are closer to Feeneyism (sp?) then we'd care to know.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I can tell going to Catholic discussion forums, the folks that post there all have very strong opinions about how to think about various protestant groups.  Are their baptisms valid?  Are they 'in communion' with this or that sect?  They all seem to have strong opinions, and get into arguments quite quickly. 

But one thing they all agree on, whatever circle they're thinking about drawing, mormons are outside of it.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

2 Corinthians 6:14 reads:  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

In a different string @Carborendum asked me directly if I considered Mormons to be Christians. My answer was something of a non-answer. I said that we don't agree on any doctrines completely, but that God decides the fate of souls. My conclusion is that we are all God-seekers, for sure.

I did not expect a lot of smiley faces. There are certainly ways of defining "Christian" that would allow us to call each other such (literally, it means 'like Christ," for example). I took the question to mean do I expect to see active Mormons in heaven.

Perhaps a different question would get us closer to understanding why we may have deep regard/respect for our fellow religionists, of different churches, and yet, when the beliefs are far apart, what shall we do?  That question is:  WOULD YOU LET YOUR SON/DAUGHTER MARRY ONE?  WOULD YOU APPROVE?

Some on this site are in such marriages, and they have worked out. I get that.  Even so, would you want the same for your children?  Just today I spoke with someone who expressed the difficulty of interfaith marriage. She was raised Catholic and her husband Buddhist (they are Vietnamese). So, when I told her we were looking at Christian colleges her first response is how good that was because they would likely find boyfriends who were also Christians.

It might be helpful to realize that many devoted Catholics and Protestants would struggle to let their children marry across the lines too. Perhaps not so much Catholic and Lutheran, but crossing over into Evangelical, Baptist, or other more conservative communities would be tough. I even know a psychologist--quite liberal--who told her Evangelical boyfriend that she would always remain Catholic and he would have to agree that the children would be raised the same.

BTW, I realize many parents today will say they will go with whatever their children decide. After all, they are adults, and who needs family drama. If you had your way, though, would you want your daughter to never be able to marry in the temple? Would you want your grandchildren raised to believe that your church was fringe at best?

Perhaps the point of this post is to say that having interfaith discussions, friendly debates, and otherwise engaging with heart on forums like this require a certain level of mutual respect and trust. My experience is that seeing the imagio Deo in each other engenders all that. Still not sure about the marriage thing though. :cool:

 

Thank-you  i think it would be generally accurate to say the devout mormon would say, 'No', and think 'Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'.  Though it's not at all uncommon - and reactions and the state of relationships after the ceremony vary widely.

The idea of marrying a member in good standing (aka marrying in the temple) is Molly's equivalent to Peter's needing to serve a mission.  Both are quite intense.

i think it goes way^10th past your example of a catholic and a protestant getting together - though it does, of course, depend on the families involved.  You have to keep in mind that anything but the highest degree of heaven in mormon dogma (Celestial, stage 3) is reserved for people who have been married and sealed in the temple.  And marrying a non-member is a rather severe blow to that aspiration.  Anything (except hell) less than Celestial stage 3, is pretty much an extremely pleasant damnation, where damnation means they don't progress to Godhood, and can't be with their family who did make it to celestial, stage 3.  A lot of motherly tears shed, as you can imagine - at the idea of being eternally separated from their children and grandchildren.

Personally, i think a person's character, compassion, kindness and integrity are far more important than which religion they are using to become a better person in - and also far more important to God - but that is hardly part of the mormon dogma, and i don't wish to represent it as such.

And as far as interfaith discussions - it's important to remember that membership in the church and espousal to it's doctrines is way more important than most other faiths i've seen.  So what might feel like a lack of respect for how another person views things is actually just a protective wall designed to protect from outside influences, manned by member archers who are encouraged in the strongest of ways to shoot missionaries at anything that moves :).  Though to be honest, as long as you avoid the points held to be immutable by members (structure of the Godhead, prophets, etc., - which i honestly feel are far less important than the similarities of compassion and kindness), you're likely to have some great conversations.  Though surely, you know this already.

Of course, this is merely the opinion from an inactive mormon/active christian (not mutually exclusive), and is worth significantly less than what you paid for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Personally, i think a person's character, compassion, kindness and integrity are far more important than which religion they are using to become a better person in - and also far more important to God - but that is hardly part of the mormon dogma, and i don't wish to represent it as such.

Yeah, the Mormon "dogma" is scripturally explicit that "nice, good" people with good character but who didn't otherwise engage in Celestial covenants inherit the Terrestrial kingdom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

You seem to misunderstand me--quite badly. I mentioned in that post you quoted from that I fully expect to see most everyone in that Evangelical church in heaven. I mentioned that 100% won't make it from any church. I did not explain. My reasoning is that so many church-attenders are not active, are not engaged, have fallen away, or perhaps only came/come for the social/ethical/fellowship benefits, without ever gaining a true relationship with Jesus.  There's no research behind this, but I'd argue that 90% of Catholic and Protestant Christians expect to see about 90% of their brothers and sisters in other churches in heaven. 

I apologize for being overly blunt.  My intention was not to single you or evangelicals out (I have the exact same issues with Catholicism, Islam, etc.).  I could have used more tact in my choice of words.

That said, I get the sense that anyone who believes in a binary heaven/hell afterlife (virtually all other Abrahamic religions) has a very different fundamental worldview from your average Mormon, which would bother me personally in a marriage.  

This would be the case even if I was married to a spouse who thought 100% of Christians, even Mormons, go to heaven, because then I would ask, "what about all of the Muslims?  Will they be burned for eternity in unimaginable and continuous agony for being born into the wrong culture?"

I grew up in a Church of Christ/Southern Baptist extended family, and this worldview difference was definitely present in the dynamics of my extended family.  And this dynamic did noticeably affect the happiness of various family members (CoC and SBC do not always get along, and that is before you throw Mormons into the mix).

Just being very honest about some very deep feelings I have towards other religions and how I perceive them.

Edited by DoctorLemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

If it helps, at this point I will say that in my 11 years here I have found that most LDS, while reticent to encourage interfaith marriage, are more tolerant of it than I am. I encourage my daughters to only DATE Christians. Why marry someone who is not a possibility for marriage? I understand the 2 Cor. passage to pretty directly prohibit marriages between believers and unbelievers.

Having said that, I encourage young people to discuss religion very seriously before they marry. Even between Evangelicals there are differences. For example, locally we have Christ's Church, in Federal Way, WA. It is a good-sized Evangelical church, and I fully expect to see most of its members in heaven (no church gets 100%). We have dear friends who go to that church, and fellowship with them readily and easily. HOWEVER, would a product of that church be comfortable in a Pentecostal church, where sometimes there is tongues and interpretation, and where we pray for the sick every week?  I say this because, families should go to church together, and raise their children in one faith, practiced by husband and wife. It doesn't always get to work out like that, but from the front-end (i.e. single people), that should be the goal.

Now, in my 50s, I see that attraction and 'love' complicate things. Sometimes the sense of love and communion of spirits between a boy and girl is so strong that they feel they can overcome their differences. In such cases I would simply urge that the discussions take place before the marriage. How will we handle religion? How will the children be raised?  "We'll figure it out," is negligence.

Bet y'all didn't realize what a hard case good ole PC can be.  :commando:

I completely agree with you.  Marriage in hard enough without the problem of different faiths.  I would not encourage my son to marry outside of his faith.  

Before my husband and I were married, faith, church life, and religious commitments were a big topic, our church also runs marriage counselling before you get married to make sure you discuss and have a plan for all aspects of living together as a married couple.  Division of labour, raising of children, financial obligations etc.  I think that is why my husband is having such a hard time with my investigating the LDS faith.  We made promises to each other in a church before God, I guess he feels like I am braking those promises, and he is right, if I join the LDS church then I am breaking those promises.  

That's why I have to take this very seriously and do a lot more research than just the 6 missionary lessons, after all they don't really even touch the surface on the beliefs of the LDS church. If I am to do this I must be 100% sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the level of devotion to religion is where the yoke is. I have a friend whose mother is a devoted Mormon and father a devoted Catholic. It was rocky during the teenage years, and all the kids had to wait until 18 to get baptized, but they have set a standard for healthy marriages. As a Mormon who attends all meetings every week, I would feel more equally yoked marrying a Christian of a different denomination who did the same in their church than I would a Mormon who showed up to sacrament meeting once a quarter. I expect my Catholic friends would feel the same (at least of the mid Millenial generation). It's about priorities, really. In order for a couple to be equally yoked, they must have the same goal in mind. If your goal is to live a Christ-centered life and have a Christ-centered home, you'll face a hard uphill climb with someone who has something else as their goal.

I would much rather see my YW marry a good (generic) Christian than a bad Mormon just because he's from an LDS family. Personally, I would rather face mortality married to a good Christian husband than face it alone. (See 1 Cor 11:11 "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.")

Edited by seashmore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Blossom76  I felt a prayer was in order:  Father, I agree with my sister, in Jesus' name, for wisdom, for strength, for discernment, for direction, and that you will put a hedge of protection about the relationship between her and her husband. May these two come through this time of searching united and more tightly bound together than ever before.  AMEN!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Blossom76  I felt a prayer was in order:  Father, I agree with my sister, in Jesus' name, for wisdom, for strength, for discernment, for direction, and that you will put a hedge of protection about the relationship between her and her husband. May these two come through this time of searching united and more tightly bound together than ever before.  AMEN!

AMEN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

This would be the case even if I was married to a spouse who thought 100% of Christians, even Mormons, go to heaven, because then I would ask, "what about all of the Muslims?  Will they be burned for eternity in unimaginable and continuous agony for being born into the wrong culture?"

 

Thank you for this! I understand better now what you were getting at.  @Traveler and I have had similar discussions, and you are correct. Some Traditional Christians are very blunt, and overly certain (imho) about who gets into heaven and who does not. At the end of the day, though, we do believe that those without Christ will not see heaven--which means they will see hell. There are some answers to questions about those who never heard, or who had such little exposure to the Good News--but suffice to say that the LDS belief is very different. Ironically, it is your belief in multiple realms, along with the idea that the salvation Christ brings is extended to those who do not embrace him (at least in the lower realms), that causes some LDS to be more permissive about interfaith dating and marriage, despite the loss of hope in gaining an eternal marriage. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

I would rather see my daughter marrying a righteous LDS man she barely gets along with than a non-LDS man she is best friends with.

Agreed.  If my daughter wants to marry someone who is her best friend, but who is not a member of the Church, I would be convinced that her priorities aren't in the right place.  As I have stated in another thread, religion is such a major part of my life that without that commonality any relationship I might have would be less meaningful and unfulfilling.  I expect to raise my children with the same perspective.  In my mind, it would be a marriage for 'fun' as opposed to a marriage for love.  Even if it were love, it would be love of man more than love of God, because that child would be rejecting God's exhortation to marry in the temple and be sealed.

Honestly, I have great difficulty understanding those who do not place a great emphasis on their religion; especially those lackadaisical members of the Church, or of any Church for that matter.  The idea of not having a thoroughly fleshed out opinion of ones religious beliefs does not compute.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting question is: Would you prefer that your daughter marry a nonlds or not marry at all? The gender imbalance makes this an issue.

In my ward and in any ward that I have visited, there seem to be two or three times the number of young women to young men. Actually in my ward the ratio is 6:1.

 I used to assume that the young men were on missions but when I talk to ward leaders, this is not the case. The young men are inactive. I realize that this may not be the case where you live but the situation here is concerning. I hope these young women are preparing themselves for the job market.

Edited by Sunday21
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • pam featured this topic
9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Thank you for this! I understand better now what you were getting at.  @Traveler and I have had similar discussions, and you are correct. Some Traditional Christians are very blunt, and overly certain (imho) about who gets into heaven and who does not. At the end of the day, though, we do believe that those without Christ will not see heaven--which means they will see hell. There are some answers to questions about those who never heard, or who had such little exposure to the Good News--but suffice to say that the LDS belief is very different. Ironically, it is your belief in multiple realms, along with the idea that the salvation Christ brings is extended to those who do not embrace him (at least in the lower realms), that causes some LDS to be more permissive about interfaith dating and marriage, despite the loss of hope in gaining an eternal marriage. 

Don't forget the principle we practice of baptism for the dead and also the principle of preaching of the gospel to those in the next life.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

As LDS, how can you have a successful marriage with someone who is not LDS?

That depends on your definition of success.

See also @Sunday21's post.  Not all Mormon women are going to have the option to marry a Mormon man.  Their choices are to marry a non-Mormon (where there's always the possibility of later conversion), or not marry at all.  There may be some areas where the opposite is true, and there may be some Mormon men for whom this is true, but that's far less common.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, zil said:

That depends on your definition of success.

See also @Sunday21's post.  Not all Mormon women are going to have the option to marry a Mormon man.  Their choices are to marry a non-Mormon (where there's always the possibility of later conversion), or not marry at all.  There may be some areas where the opposite is true, and there may be some Mormon men for whom this is true, but that's far less common.

Isn't the goal to have an eternal marriage?  Unless I'm not understanding, which is typical, anything less than a Temple sealing isn't successful, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Grunt said:

Isn't the goal to have an eternal marriage?  Unless I'm not understanding, which is typical, anything less than a Temple sealing isn't successful, right?

If that's your definition of success, yes.  But then there's the numeric reality.  Should a Mormon woman remain single because there aren't enough marriageable Mormon males?  (Some would suggest yes, I'm sure.)  And who's to say that her marriage to a non-member now won't ultimately become an eternal marriage, even if it requires the next life to complete that process?

We can agree that the absolute, unquestionable ideal is for a faithful Mormon woman to be sealed to a faithful Mormon man and for them to remain true to their covenants for all eternity.  No question.

But reality makes it so that that ideal is not possible 100% of the time.  There's more than one route to eternal marriage, apparently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Grunt said:

I wasn't aware of that.  Thank you.

To be clear, I'm talking about:

  • Sealed in the temple from the get-go
  • Sealed after having been married some other way (one converts, both convert, both get worthy, whatever)
  • Sealed by proxy after death of one or both

The only way to eternal marriage is to be sealed by one having authority and be worthy of that sealing, it's just that the sequence of events sometimes varies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, zil said:

To be clear, I'm talking about:

  • Sealed in the temple from the get-go
  • Sealed after having been married some other way (one converts, both convert, both get worthy, whatever)
  • Sealed by proxy after death of one or both

The only way to eternal marriage is to be sealed by one having authority and be worthy of that sealing, it's just that the sequence of events sometimes varies.

The first two I understood.  I just wouldn't consider the marriage successful until that occurs.  The second is odd to me, but wouldn't it not be considered successful, or even sealed, until accepted after death in the spirit world, the same as baptism?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Grunt said:

The first two I understood.  I just wouldn't consider the marriage successful until that occurs.  The second is odd to me, but wouldn't it not be considered successful, or even sealed, until accepted after death in the spirit world, the same as baptism?

Yes, certainly, all assume that the couple accept the sealing and keep the covenants and are faithful and deserving of exaltation in the celestial kingdom - only then do you have a successful eternal marriage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • pam unfeatured this topic

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share