Inspired to go into debt?

[person0]

My wife and I paid off our current house back in June.  With 2 of our children now adopted and sealed to us, and 3 other children in the works, we are busting out of our house.  We have signed a contract to build a new house rather than to purchase an existing home.  We felt inspired as we prayed and pondered to pick the specific location of the home, as well as the builder and floor plan for our family.  We knew there would be frustrations along the way, but we felt that this was the right decision.

I am the kind of person who would rather have just re-modeled our existing basement to add a bedroom or two and not had to worry about going back into debt.  I hate debt with a passion.  However, after paying off our house I never felt the joy of being debt free; I assume the Lord knew this was in the works all along.

One thing that bothers me about the process is that upgrading the home to where we want it to be is very expensive.  My natural inclination is to just buy the base house and either move, or change things down the road.  That said, I have felt an impression more than once that we should just get essentially whatever we want and it will be okay.  Based on all our sources of income, I know that if things remain as they are, and we maintain our lifestyle as is, we would be able to pay off even the most expensively upgraded house within a maximum of 5 to 6 additional years, perhaps 7 at worst when accounting for possible high cost unforeseen emergencies.

I personally dislike anything to do with debt and would rather wait the 5 years and then build my house for cash. Even though I feel spiritually okay with the impressions I have received, it doesn't match my personal beliefs, and I am fairly certain that it doesn't match the Church's guidelines either.  This is not what I would consider a modest home (but I am very, very frugal so it could be a modest home to someone else).  Has anyone else had an experience where they felt impressed to do something that would put them into debt, even though it could be generally considered a want rather than a need?

Getting an impression to do something that is against my personal desires is normal to me.  I also recognize that there is nothing inherently sinful or wrong about this type of debt, whereas if someone got an impression to break the Law of Chastity that would be an obvious red flag!  Even so, getting an impression to do something that the Church generally counsels us to avoid does not seem normal.

Since I expect people will ask, the house will cost around 350K, possibly up to 370K.  Down payment will be between 150-180K (depending on the cost of the house).  So the loan would be 200K, and whatever cash we retain would be used for additional improvements (i.e. blinds, ceiling fans, finish basement, etc).  The loan payment (including HOA, Taxes, and Insurance) would be, in the worst case scenario, 26.6% of our gross income, and without additional details, at best the payment would be 26.4% of our take home pay (after taxes, 401k contributions, etc.)

EDIT:  I forgot to mention that the above numbers are based on a 15 year mortgage.

Thoughts?

Edited November 14, 2017 by person0

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, person0 said:

My wife and I paid off our current house back in June.  With 2 of our children now adopted and sealed to us, and 3 other children in the works, we are busting out of our house.  We have signed a contract to build a new house rather than to purchase an existing home....

Thoughts?

Well, I could go into a Dave Ramsey tirade and say you're crazy.  But I still have a mortgage, so, what do I know?

[Fether]

11 minutes ago, person0 said:

My wife and I paid off our current house back in June.  With 2 of our children now adopted and sealed to us, and 3 other children in the works, we are busting out of our house.  We have signed a contract to build a new house rather than to purchase an existing home.  We felt inspired as we prayed and pondered to pick the specific location of the home, as well as the builder and floor plan for our family.  We knew there would be frustrations along the way, but we felt that this was the right decision.

I am the kind of person who would rather have just re-modeled our existing basement to add a bedroom or two and not had to worry about going back into debt.  I hate debt with a passion.  However, after paying off our house I never felt the joy of being debt free; I assume the Lord knew this was in the works all along.

One thing that bothers me about the process is that upgrading the home to where we want it to be is very expensive.  My natural inclination is to just buy the base house and either move, or change things down the road.  That said, I have felt an impression more than once that we should just get essentially whatever we want and it will be okay.  Based on all our sources of income, I know that if things remain as they are, and we maintain our lifestyle as is, we would be able to pay off even the most expensively upgraded house within a maximum of 5 to 6 additional years, perhaps 7 at worst when accounting for possible high cost unforeseen emergencies.

I personally dislike anything to do with debt and would rather wait the 5 years and then build my house for cash. Even though I feel spiritually okay with the impressions I have received, it doesn't match my personal beliefs, and I am fairly certain that it doesn't match the Church's guidelines either.  This is not what I would consider a modest home (but I am very, very frugal so it could be a modest home to someone else).  Has anyone else had an experience where they felt impressed to do something that would put them into debt, even though it could be generally considered a want rather than a need?

Getting an impression to do something that is against my personal desires is normal to me.  I also recognize that there is nothing inherently sinful or wrong about this type of debt, whereas if someone got an impression to break the Law of Chastity that would be an obvious red flag!  Even so, getting an impression to do something that the Church generally counsels us to avoid does not seem normal.

Since I expect people will ask, the house will cost around 350K, possibly up to 370K.  Down payment will be between 150-180K (depending on the cost of the house).  So the loan would be 200K, and whatever cash we retain would be used for additional improvements (i.e. blinds, ceiling fans, finish basement, etc).  The loan payment (including HOA, Taxes, and Insurance) would be, in the worst case scenario, 26.6% of our gross income, and without additional details, at best the payment would be 26.4% of our take home pay (after taxes, 401k contributions, etc.)

Thoughts?

I’m still pretty young and haven’t had a ton of experience on this, but I do have 2 examples.

1) My wife and I are still in school and after reading the words of the prophets, discussing and praying about, we feel that we need to start a family. We actually find out our child’s gender on Monday  but this is for sure going to put a financial burden on us (already had). We have avoided debt this far because of previous savings but I feel like it is looming around the corner.

2) Closely related is our car situation. We both brought two cars into the marriage, both completely paid off. Well in the last year that we had the cars, we put $5000 in to them to keep them running. We ended up selling my car and now we just have her tiny little fiat 500. That car is way to small for a baby and it keeps having problems. So we are deciding to sell it and with the money we have, we are going to by a 2016 Honda Civic for $12000 with only 9,000 miles on it. We have $9000 to throw down on it now, but we will be going $3000 in debt for it. All this for the sake with the hope we won’t have car problems till at least year 2500 (cause you know Civics never die). We feel like this is a good move.

[person0]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, I could go into a Dave Ramsey tirade and say you're crazy.  But I still have a mortgage, so, what do I know?

Funny story.  Two weeks ago he had a family on his show in nearly an identical situation and Dave told them to build the house!

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, person0 said:

Funny story.  Two weeks ago he had a family on his show in nearly an identical situation and Dave told them to build the house!

Now, now.  You know his background to that position.  His position has always been to try to do without.  But if you're bound and determined to have a mortgage, follow these rules... Percentage downpayment, percentage of take home pay, etc.

He basically looks at mortgages like Christ talked of divorces.  In fact, Dave often compares doing bankruptcy to getting a divorce.

And I doubt it was the exact same position.  He'd hammer on you about your basement space.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

I don't know where you live, but I have a hard time recommending paying more than 200k total for a house to anyone, regardless of income.  200k appears to buy a good, middle-class home just about anywhere outside of San Francisco and NYC that can easily acommodate seven people.  I know it does in Utah and Texas.  Do you really need to upgrade to a 370k house?  Even if you don't go into debt buying such a house, I would question if such a house is really the best use of your money.

Remember, you are strapped to that mortgage for many years.  You may be able to afford it now, but what if you get laid off or become disabled?

[anatess2]

Okay, here's my experience.  I had a house and I thought it was too small so I went and bought another house.  The Spirit was very clear - not a good idea.  I bought it anyway even knowing logically the house is a whole lot of scary debt money.  The housing market crashed a few months after we closed on the deal which swallowed the equity we had with our downpayment.  I love my house.  My kids love the house.  We've had great memories with this house.  But things would have been much easier if I listened to the Spirit and not bought the house.  Because, as it is right now, we would have made off like bandits if we would have just rented a house and bought a house a few months later after the crash.

But yeah, this is the opposite of what you're trying to do. 

If I were you, I'm going to do either one of these things:

1.)  Build that basement.

2.) Rent the house and get a mortgage on a new house that can be paid off by the rental proceeds of the other house.

But that's just me. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by anatess2

[person0]

16 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I don't know where you live, but I have a hard time recommending paying more than 200k total for a house to anyone, regardless of income.  200k appears to buy a good, middle-class home just about anywhere outside of San Francisco and NYC that can easily acommodate seven people.  I know it does in Utah and Texas.  Do you really need to upgrade to a 370k house?  Even if you don't go into debt buying such a house, I would question if such a house is really the best use of your money.

Remember, you are strapped to that mortgage for many years.  You may be able to afford it now, but what if you get laid off or become disabled?

I'm not sure what housing market you are looking at, but my current house which has 1300 sqft, 3 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms appraises at 167K.  My neighbors home with the same sqft and nearly identical floor plan sold 5 months ago for 165K.  The lowest price for a house in the big city we live in would be 260K for enough bedrooms/bathrooms, if we buy a house that is 60 years old, and in/near a flood zone, but has been remodeled.

EDIT:  We can't move outside of the city and commute, because leaving the city would cause our not yet adopted children to be removed from our home.  That was our original idea and would save us about 50K on the house, but it can't be done.

Edit 2:  If I become disabled it would not pose a problem (Dave Ramsey say's to have disability insurance, and I do :-).  However, losing my job would be a pickle.  I confirmed with my employer before we made this decision about job longevity.  However, if my employer bails, I have an unofficial indefinite offer of employment from the primary client I service.  Things could still happen, but I already have a contingency plan in place.

Edited November 14, 2017 by person0

[omegaseamaster75]

I don't know what part of the country you live in but from my seat 370k seems like small potato's for a new build. You can't even buy a 50 year old condo around here for that.

You have huge down, 15Y mortgage and are some how worried about the payment? Buy the house you will live there forever and be done with it.  If money gets tight refinance in to a 30yr deal.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, person0 said:

I'm not sure what housing market you are looking at, but my current house which has 1300 sqft, 3 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms appraises at 167K.  My neighbors home with the same sqft and nearly identical floor plan sold 5 months ago for 165K.  The lowest price for a house in the big city we live in would be 260K for enough bedrooms/bathrooms, if we buy a house that is 60 years old, and in/near a flood zone, but has been remodeled.

I am looking at Houston, TX (where I live) and Spanish Fork, Utah (where my brother lives).  I understand that you have to pay more in certain areas (San Francisco, e.g.), but in Houston, spending 370k on a house is waaayyy too much.  I even had problems spending 200k on my new house - I was perfectly happy in my old house which cost 90k, but my wife kept whining about "school districts".  

I get that housing is more expensive in some places and I do think that you should absolutely follow the spirit.  I just know I would be very reluctant to pay more than 200k on a house in TX regardless of debt or salary.

Edited November 14, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, person0 said:

I'm not sure what housing market you are looking at, but my current house which has 1300 sqft, 3 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms appraises at 167K.  My neighbors home with the same sqft and nearly identical floor plan sold 5 months ago for 165K.  The lowest price for a house in the big city we live in would be 260K for enough bedrooms/bathrooms, if we buy a house that is 60 years old, and in/near a flood zone, but has been remodeled.

EDIT:  We can't move outside of the city and commute, because leaving the city would cause our not yet adopted children to be removed from our home.

Dave Ramsey grew up in a 3 bedroom 1 bath house with (what was it?) 6 siblings? In my home growing up, we had six kids in three bedrooms (one was simply a converted attic) and 1.5 baths for the whole family.  We didn't feel like we were wanting for anything.  I now have three kids in one bedroom with two in each of the others.  You can make it work with what you've got.  But if you have to move, you have to move.  That's a different factor.

If the Spirit verily told you that it was a good idea, I'd think there was another factor involved that you haven't shared.  Not that you need to.  But if you're asking for thoughts, you might want to share. 

If it is just about fitting people into the space you've got, you can make it work.  So, it's not just that.  Is it that you simply don't want to go through the effort?  Is it something to do with the adoption process?  What are we missing?

[zil]

@person0, if I understand correctly, you're saying you'll get a 15 year mortgage and pay it off in 5-7 years, right?

Further, you feel like the Lord has told you to do this, right?  (The when, the where, the what are all confirmed by the Spirit?)

So the problem is, you don't wanna go into debt, for personal reasons and because the Church recommends against it where possible and to get out of it as quickly as possible (clearly you plan to do that rather than take the whole 15 years), right?

Therefore, it seems unlikely that your personal desires are masquerading as the Spirit.  I suspect the Lord is guiding you to a place where you will be better off (I don't mean materially), and / or where others will be better off due to your presence.  It will be interesting to hear about your life between now and 7 years from now.

Edited November 14, 2017 by zil
Oh dear. I just realized I typed this. So sorry. I'll try harder not to.

[estradling75]

Its been my experience that I am not nearly as wise or as smart as the Lord through his spirit is.

It has also been my experience that the Lord tests me to see if I will do "all things" he commanded.  This included challenging what I think is my strong points with things that do not make sense or don't match up (I think it is a test for pride).

If I were you (and I am not) and I was reasonably sure it was the spirit I'd get on my knees and tell the Lord I was going to do it his way and if was not his way (or the test was done) then he should stop me.  And then I get to work doing what I think the Lord wants.

Then one of two things will happen... either everything works more or less smoothly or everything blows up and I get stopped. 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by estradling75

[person0]

6 minutes ago, zil said:

@person0, if I understand correctly, you're saying you'll get a 15 year mortgage and pay it off in 5-7 years, right? Right!

Further, you feel like the Lord has told you to do this, right?  (The when, the where, the what are all confirmed by the Spirit?)  Right!

So the problem is, you don't wanna go into debt, for personal reasons and because the Church recommends against it where possible and to get out of it as quickly as possible (clearly you plan to do that rather than take the whole 15 years), right?  Right!

Therefore, it seems unlikely that your personal desires are masquerading as the Spirit.  I suspect the Lord is guiding you to a place where you will be better off (I don't mean materially), and / or whether others will be better off due to your presence.  It will be interesting to hear about your life between now and 7 years from now.

I agree, that's what we feel.  It's kind of overwhelming though.  It's hard to believe that the Lord wants to bless our family with this new home, but we feel confident and at peace about the decision, come what may, which is what is seems unusual.

7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Its been my experience that I am not nearly as wise or as smart as the Lord through his spirit is.

It has also been my experience that the Lord tests me to see if I will do "all things" he commanded.  This included challenging what I think is my strong points with things that do not make sense or don't match up (I think it is a test for pride).

If I were you (and I am not) and I was reasonably sure it was the spirit I'd get on my knees and tell the Lord I was going to do it his way and if was not his way (or the test was done) then he should stop me.  And then I get to work doing what I think the Lord wants.

Then one of two things will happen... either everything works more or less smoothly or everything blows up and I get stopped. 

 

I agree.  I also, have the idea that either the Lord wants this for my family for his purposes, or else, He wants this for us to teach us a lesson.  Either way, as long as I have my family I will have joy, richer or poorer.

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If the Spirit verily told you that it was a good idea, I'd think there was another factor involved that you haven't shared.  Not that you need to.  But if you're asking for thoughts, you might want to share. 

If it is just about fitting people into the space you've got, you can make it work.  So, it's not just that.  Is it that you simply don't want to go through the effort?  Is it something to do with the adoption process?  What are we missing?

On the off chance that the state does not permit a sibling separation, or their current home chooses not to adopt them, we would end up with two more children (total of 7 kids, - 4 girls & 3  boys).  Additionally, the state workers have recommended (although not required) us to get a larger home.  On top of all that, I have family in financial difficulties, the new house would be large enough to add two additional bedrooms in the basement to accommodate either more children, or family.  These are all what if's though, we just figured we would use the opportunity to be prepared.

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, person0 said:

I agree, that's what we feel.  It's kind of overwhelming though.  It's hard to believe that the Lord wants to bless our family with this new home, but we feel confident and at peace about the decision, come what may, which is what is seems unusual.

To me the confidence and peace (aka spirit) are the deciding factor.  Plus it seems like from what you say that you have studied it out and can handle the expected changes and have a margin for the unexpected (because even if it is the Lord it doesn't mean your numbers are wrong).  For me this would be a safe bet in following the Lord, but you are not me and this is your test for a reason.  So good luck.

[my two cents]

Sidetrack - 

@Fether - Before you go and spend that kind of money on a car, I suggest you call the mission offices within driving distance and see if they have anything available. I've gotten cars for less than $9000 that have served us well for years. 

[Fether]

5 minutes ago, my two cents said:

Sidetrack - 

@Fether - Before you go and spend that kind of money on a car, I suggest you call the mission offices within driving distance and see if they have anything available. I've gotten cars for less than $9000 that have served us well for years. 

Two cent... I drove those cars for 2 years, I know how missionaries treat them  I will never get one.

jk that was just a running joke in my mission. I’ll look into it

but if it is the same as my mission, they retire the cars at 50,000 miles. I don’t want anything over 20,000.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Fether

[my two cents]

@person0 - I would normally advise to make getting and staying out of debt a priority (the economy can't keep up forever) so my thoughts on this:

1 - My parents raised a lot of kids in a very small home. It can be done.

2 - If you're feeling like this is what you're supposed to do and since you have the resources, plan on having family move in and/or being in a ward that needs you for certain reasons.

Congrats on the growing family!

[my two cents]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Two cent... I drove those cars for 2 years, I know how missionaries treat them  I will never get one.

jk that was just a running joke in my mission. I’ll look into it

but if it is the same as my mission, they retire the cars at 50,000 miles. I don’t want anything over 20,000.

The cars we've gotten didn't have that many miles.

 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

(cause you know Civics never die). 

The cool thing about owning Civics - even if it is a foreign car - is that Civic parts are everywhere for cheap.  So, Civics never die, not because they don't (because they do), but because you can easily fix them yourself. 

Or if you're not mechanically inclined, you can always find that one guy who knows everything Civic that you can run to every time.  We call them the family mechanic - you know, the guy who fixes your cars and gets invited to family dinners.  Yeah, you got one of those, your Civic will never die. 

 

[estradling75]

Lets look at this from another angle.

We are suppose to understand and know that we depend on Christ for EVERYTHING.

The scriptures tell us that God works through small and simple things to accomplish his ends.

So he commands us to be out of debit, have food storage, and a bunch of other things because they are all small and simple things that accomplish his ends.

The problem we sometimes get into is that we begin to focus on the Tools that our Master is using and lose sight of the Master himself.  This is a form of idolatry.

Sadly it can be hard to see this sin approach because it can be masked by doing the right thing.  Sometimes we only see it when the Lord tells us to drop that tool, and instead of dropping it like scaling rock, we try to find reason to hold on to it.

Not being in debt is a tool that the Lord uses, nothing more nothing less.  We should obey his command to get out of debt when he commands it, and we should obey his command to go into debt when he commands it (of course we should be sure it is his command)

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

On the off chance that the state does not permit a sibling separation, or their current home chooses not to adopt them, we would end up with two more children (total of 7 kids, - 4 girls & 3  boys).  Additionally, the state workers have recommended (although not required) us to get a larger home.  On top of all that, I have family in financial difficulties, the new house would be large enough to add two additional bedrooms in the basement to accommodate either more children, or family.  These are all what if's though, we just figured we would use the opportunity to be prepared.

OK.  You're officially at a level of overload that I haven't lived in since I lived in Korea.  So (since you're asking for opinions) it seems like this is a highly reasonable (even necessary?) move.  And since you're following Dave Ramsey's rules for mortgages, you'll probably be ok.  Go for it.

The counsel from prophets have been to avoid debt.  But home and education are exceptions as long as there is a reasonable financial plan to pay back.  It requires that we buy a home that we can actually afford.  It requires that the cost of the education will pay for itself with a higher paying career.  This kind of thing.  Someone once told me that they said it was ok to go into debt for a car.  But I've never heard that, nor can I find it.

But this is a house.  It looks like you can afford it.  That's following proper counsel (from the prophets as well as Dave Ramsey).

Edited November 14, 2017 by Guest

[mirkwood]

@person0  First off, if you are really receiving inspiration and not using that as an excuse to buy the house, then follow that prompting.  By no means am I implying you are doing that, just commenting.  Some people say, "I'm being inspired" as a justification to do something.

 

A thought on 15 year mortgages.  Up front, YOU MUST BE 100% DISCIPLINED TO USE MY METHOD.  We looked at the 15 year mortgage to pay off the house when we did our refinance years ago.  We already paid extra principal each month so increasing the house payment was going to be no different than what we already paid.  We chose to keep the 30 year and continue to pay the extra principal each month.  Our thought process was that this would free up an additional $200 a month if we had a LEGITIMATE financial emergency.  Not we wanted to take a trip.  Not we wanted a new car.  Not we wanted a new television.  Not we wanted _____________.  The ONLY reason that money would not monthly go to the principal was for a true emergency.  That extra money is never tapped.  However, as I said above, YOU MUST BE 100% DISCIPLINED TO USE MY METHOD, or it will fail and you will not turn a 30 year mortgage into a 15 year with an emergency buffer "fund". 

Edited November 14, 2017 by mirkwood

[person0]

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

@person0  First off, if you are really receiving inspiration and not using that as an excuse to buy the house, then follow that prompting.  By no means am I implying you are doing that, just commenting.  Some people say, "I'm being inspired" as a justification to do something.

 

A thought on 15 year mortgages.  Up front, YOU MUST BE 100% DISCIPLINED TO USE MY METHOD.  We looked at the 15 year mortgage to pay off the house when we did our refinance years ago.  We already paid extra principal each month so increasing the house payment was going to be no different than what we already paid.  We chose to keep the 30 year and continue to pay the extra principal each month.  Our thought process was that this would free up an additional $200 a month if we had a LEGITIMATE financial emergency.  Not we wanted to take a trip.  Not we wanted a new car.  Not we wanted a new television.  Not we wanted _____________.  The ONLY reason that money would not monthly go to the principal was for a true emergency.  That extra money is never tapped.  However, as I said above, YOU MUST BE 100% DISCIPLINED TO USE MY METHOD, or it will fail and you will not turn a 30 year mortgage into a 15 year with an emergency buffer "fund". 

I had considered that method going into my first mortgage, and I know it can be an excellent plan.  Although it works for a lot of people, for us it would be the difference between a 3.25% interest rate on a 15 yr and a 3.8% interest rate on a 30 yr.  I plan to still go with the 15 no matter what simply because of the money we will save on interest.  Even when you pay a 30 yr early, you still end up paying more in interest.

Just for everyone's knowledge, we bought our first home in January of 2014 with a 15 yr mortgage and paid off the full loan in 3.5 years, which has put us in the position we are in now with buying this house.

EDIT:  I should also let you know.  Our lender will do a re-amortization for free with every 10K of lump sum paid toward principal.  This means we could reduce our monthly loan payment once or twice a year simply by saving up an extra 10K on the side and making that lump sum payment.

Edited November 14, 2017 by person0

[person0]

I think that it's reasonable to believe the Lord has inspired and approved this decision, not because we deserve it, or even because we need it, but because He needs us in this area, He needs us to be prepared for whatever His plans are for us, and He knows that we can be trusted with this type of stewardship.  It is usually a burden for me to spend money.  I am so frugal that if I don't bring lunch to the office I just skip lunch and eat extra dinner rather than going out to buy lunch (not even off the dollar menu from the McDonalds across the street)!  While I would not consider myself to be an 'extreme cheapskate', compared to my friends and colleagues, I almost am.  Our combined cell phone bill is $34/month.  We leave our house at 80+ in the summer and 68- in the winter and have low power bills.  We use low flow shower heads.  We have 0 other debt.  We have internet but no cable.  We only eat out about once a month.  The most recent purchase I made for myself was an Item that I have wanted to buy for 3 years and finally did it, paying for 25% of it with gift cards to reduce my personal out of pocket cost.  The fact that spending money is a burden, means that we are constantly adding to our savings.

I say all that to try and make it clear to people that normally I am opposed to anything that seems like an unnecessary expenditure of money, which, this house and the things we want to make it functional and appealing seems to be.  I am/was hoping to get people's perspectives on when/if they had an experience which they have confirmed was correct, where they felt inspired to do something that they normally would think a person would not be inspired to do.

Now that wrote all that, I just thought about how Nephi was inspired, even commanded, to kill Laban.  Not a normal thing, but was the right thing for him.  So I suppose I've somewhat answered my own question.  Other's experiences would still be appreciated!