The 7th Seal

[Anddenex]

23 hours ago, my two cents said:

I"ll keep this person anonymous but there are people who've studied this quite a bit and say that Pres. Hinckley indicated the seal opened at the dedication of the Palmyra Temple: 

April 6, 2000 was the prophesied temple dedication from Revelations 7 & Joel 1 where all members would attend. Not possible in our day if not for technology which allowed ALL worthy members to watch as Palmyra was the first (of only two temple dedications) that were televised world wide. And immediately after, in Rev 8:1 the 7th seal was opened, and the space of 'half an hour' (or 20.83 years in the Lords time) began.

As far as where I stand, I think it's better to think things are closer than to think we still have a long way to go.

Did you provide a link to this quote, or was this spoken in a time that this was not recorded by the Church?

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The 7^th seal is the one at the front with his mouth open. The 7^th seal opens up with someone offers fish or if they approach to close. The 6^th seal is the one with his back turned to us and the one lieing down is the 8^th seal that John was about to write about when his fountain pen ran out of ink. If John had used a proper pen instead of a fountain pen we would have had more of the gospel and Revelations would not be so hard to understand.

Not sure, but aren't those sea lions?

Thought the difference between seals and sea lions was that sea lions have ear flaps you can see while seals do not.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not sure, but aren't those sea lions?

Thought the difference between seals and sea lions was that sea lions have ear flaps you can see while seals do not.

[my two cents]

17 hours ago, Alex said:

Hmm, a few things here. One of my friends who is a lawyer for the church worked out the Roman Calendar days (there were only 350 days in the Roman calendar so every decade the seasons were reversed in Rome) and the year the globe ceased using the Roman Calendar. He then worked out the leap years and a few other miracles where the sun/moon were stopped. He then factored in the prophecy that Christ would come at the end of the 4,000 years and then there'd be 2,000 years before the beginning of the seventh... now, if you work it all out -and I can't show you his math because I don't have it here with me-  it places the beginning of the 7,000 at the year 2027-2028.

You (and your friend) may want to consider that D&C 20:1 seems to accept our current calendar.

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not sure, but aren't those sea lions?

Thought the difference between seals and sea lions was that sea lions have ear flaps you can see while seals do not.

I’m not sure if they are seals or sea lions. The guy who took us along the coastal track where these creatures lived described the area as a seal colony. I didn’t notice any ear flaps, but I wasn’t really looking for them. Here’s a closer look:

 

[my two cents]

3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Did you provide a link to this quote, or was this spoken in a time that this was not recorded by the Church?

Wish I had a quote. It was said prior to the 'official' part but those that were there heard it and someone also heard a seventy confirm that the seal is open. Looking over those scriptures should shed some light though as well.

(the 6th and 7th overlap btw)

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, my two cents said:

You (and your friend) may want to consider that D&C 20:1 seems to accept our current calendar.

D&C 20:1 is not part of the revelation, was not penned nor dictated by the Prophet Joseph Smith, and is clearly a formulaic, formalistic, fancy-pants way of saying "April 6, 1830". So it is not any kind of reliable proof of the date of Jesus' birth or the correctness of Dionyseus Exiguus's year numbering system. Not saying I agree with Alex's statements or ideas, but I don't think D&C 20:1 refutes them.

[lostinwater]

On 11/18/2017 at 3:25 AM, Alex said:

Hmm, a few things here. One of my friends who is a lawyer for the church worked out the Roman Calendar days (there were only 350 days in the Roman calendar so every decade the seasons were reversed in Rome) and the year the globe ceased using the Roman Calendar. He then worked out the leap years and a few other miracles where the sun/moon were stopped. He then factored in the prophecy that Christ would come at the end of the 4,000 years and then there'd be 2,000 years before the beginning of the seventh... now, if you work it all out -and I can't show you his math because I don't have it here with me-  it places the beginning of the 7,000 at the year 2027-2028.

What I also found interesting was that President Hinckley in London in 1987 was interviewed for the Church News and asked why 'the church's lease on Hyde Park Chapel runs out in 2036 and the church has no provisions to renew the lease of the most expensive piece of real estate the church is holding?' Pres Hinckley replied in print that "The savior would be returning long before then". You can find that quote for yourself in the Church news of the era.

What I don't get though is that in one of the recent firesides, the congregation were told 'the clock's hand had moved' and it was "only one minute until midnight". Given that back in the 80's we were being told it was two minutes to midnight, it would put the year of the Saviors return in the 2030's. Yeah, the clock metaphor is obviously an imprecise measurement, I know. 

And before someone screams "no man shall know the date", a date is a day, not a year. All we know of the date is that it is on 'HIS DAY'. Does that mean his birthday or the day of his resurrection, or perhaps the anniversary of the day of atonement?

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention there's a revelation from Joseph Smith relating to Matt 24 where we are told that the Lord returns in a year without rainbows globally- it's not that the symbol of the promise (the rainbow itself) is removed but the scripture points to there being no rain as it's a time of global famine. So, you would still be able to create a rainbow with a squirt from your garden hose however, you may not have the water to waste like that- according to revelations, one third of the sea will be dead after a massive volcano around the same time.

 

Very interesting and well researched.  Thank-you for sharing.

[Anddenex]

13 hours ago, my two cents said:

Wish I had a quote. It was said prior to the 'official' part but those that were there heard it and someone also heard a seventy confirm that the seal is open. Looking over those scriptures should shed some light though as well.

(the 6th and 7th overlap btw)

Thank you. That is very intriguing, and I do wish I was there myself.

"(the 6th and 7th overlap btw)"

This is what I am looking for, scriptural or Church manual quotes that provide some additional insight as to this knowledge.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Anddenex

[Anddenex]

On 11/18/2017 at 4:25 AM, Alex said:

What I also found interesting was that President Hinckley in London in 1987 was interviewed for the Church News and asked why 'the church's lease on Hyde Park Chapel runs out in 2036 and the church has no provisions to renew the lease of the most expensive piece of real estate the church is holding?' Pres Hinckley replied in print that "The savior would be returning long before then". You can find that quote for yourself in the Church news of the era.

Do you have source that we can read President Hinckley's quote?

[Guest]

On 11/18/2017 at 5:25 AM, Alex said:

Hmm, a few things here. One of my friends who is a lawyer for the church worked out the Roman Calendar days (there were only 350 days in the Roman calendar so every decade the seasons were reversed in Rome) and the year the globe ceased using the Roman Calendar.

Who is this "lawyer for the Church"?  He was wrong.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Who is this "lawyer for the Church"?  He was wrong.

This "lawyer" couldn't do a two second Google search to find out he was incorrect. 

http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/roman.php

Like the article says, before 100 BC the Roman Calendar was notoriously unreliable. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by MormonGator

[zil]

58 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This "lawyer" couldn't do a two second Google search to find out he was incorrect. 

http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/roman.php

Like the article says, before 100 BC the Roman Calendar was notoriously unreliable. 

Yes, but if they had been accurate, we wouldn't have the amusing YouTube videos about how February got 28 days and where leap day / year came from.  So let's all thank the Romans for screwing up calendars, especially during the winter, so that people many centuries later could be amused (and slightly annoyed).

[Alex]

4 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Do you have source that we can read President Hinckley's quote?

I had it on the newspaper itself but filed it away somewhere and now, well, long lost.

[Alex]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

This "lawyer" couldn't do a two second Google search to find out he was incorrect. 

http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/roman.php

Like the article says, before 100 BC the Roman Calendar was notoriously unreliable. 

No, you're forgetting the 4,000 and then 2,000 year prophecies (Christ is born at the 4,000 year mark and then there's 2,000 years until the beginning of the 7,000th year - with those you need only work out when the Roman calendar was dropped after Christ.

4,000 year mark:

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2014/twelve_steps.html

Umm, I can text my friend but he's a professor at Notre Dame Sydney most of the time now, so kind of busy. Hmm, if you contemplate and then write the exact query you have, I'll pass it on- I just don't want to send a few questions until you have the exact question because I don't want to sap his time and stretch my friendship with him. Just be precise in what you are asking.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

I had it on the newspaper itself but filed it away somewhere and now, well, long lost.

Convenient.

58 minutes ago, Alex said:

No, you're forgetting the 4,000 and then 2,000 year prophecies (Christ is born at the 4,000 year mark and then there's 2,000 years until the beginning of the 7,000th year - with those you need only work out when the Roman calendar was dropped after Christ.

What does that have to do with the calendar being 350 days?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Do you have source that we can read President Hinckley's quote?

I highly doubt he said that.  This is based not on the believability of the statement (it could have been or maybe not).  It is because, with my (personal opinion) reading, the 6th seal is still finishing up.  Unless there is something saying that the 6th and 7th are able to overlap...

[brlenox]

.

Edited November 20, 2017 by brlenox

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I highly doubt he said that.  This is based not on the believability of the statement (it could have been or maybe not).  It is because, with my (personal opinion) reading, the 6th seal is still finishing up.  Unless there is something saying that the 6th and 7th are able to overlap...

True. I am hesitant to believe such without reading the source myself. Could he have said such, and could it be true? Possibly, but without authentic source, we are left to the Spirit guiding truth.

My understanding is with the seals is that they don't, but I have been hearing from others that they do, and wanted to know of sources without (hehe) going into an in-depth study myself (yes, being lazy). There was a response on Ask Gramps that said they overlap, which is what sparked this thread.

I also realized in this thread that I was confusing the 7th Seal with the 7th trumpet also. So, it brought out something good already that helped clear up some of my confusion.

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Convenient.

What does that have to do with the calendar being 350 days?

The point I was making is that you'd figure out the calendar from Christ's birth, which is at the 4,000 year mark. You'd figure out which calendar was in use, and NOT need to go back to the various calendars before Christ.

And as for the quote, well, if the Church news was indexed and available online I could find it and show you. It isn't and there ain't much I can do about that. I clipped that article back in the day and that was a few years before personal computers for keeping scanned files was common. I've lived at 14 addresses in 2 countries since 87 and have no clue where that clipping went- you can take my word for it or discard it altogether.

Hint for you- why not enquire as to why the church's most valuable lease is not being renewed for yourself !

Edited November 21, 2017 by Alex
boredom

[JohnsonJones]

On the actual Hinckley quote, I was not there, I do not know what he said.

I have heard that there were multiple references to Hinckley stating that the seventh seal was open during the Palmyra dedication, but I do not have a source on that.  It is not found in the dedicatory prayer.

Palmyra dedicatory prayer

Another explanation I have heard is that this is interpolated from remarks Hinckley stated, where he said the Sun was turned to darkness and the Moon was turned to blood, a reference many think does not happen until after the Seventh Seal has been opened, and hence the interpretation is that the Seventh Seal is now open.

 

(My personal thoughts (which is not as strong as an opinion or a belief) is that the seventh seal is open.

Edited November 21, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

I am still thinking about when President Hinckley declared the moon had turned to blood back in October 2001 (I think).

Growing up I thought the actual moon would turn blood red some night.

Little did I know that that prophecy was all about Islamic terrorism ("the moon " being radical Islam).  

I love it!

Anyone have any insights into what the sun being darkened means?

Edited November 21, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Just_A_Guy]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

I had it on the newspaper itself but filed it away somewhere and now, well, long lost.

I hope you’ll not take it personally if I suggest there may be a memory lapse at play here.  The 2013 Deseret News article linked below seems to suggest that the Church owns the land for the Hyde Park Chapel outright, and has since the 1950s.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/765634995/Picturing-history-Hyde-Park-chapel.html

Edited November 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

When it comes to the Second Coming and the first chapter of the Book of Joel, what do we make of Peter’s announcing that the events prophesied in Joel 2:28 (which, that scripture seems to say, happens *after* the events of Chapter 1) had been fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, in A.D. 34?

Edited November 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I hope you’ll not take it personally if I suggest there may be a memory lapse at play here.  The 2013 Deseret News article linked below seems to suggest that the Church owns the land for the Hyde Park Chapel outright, and has since the 1950s.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/765634995/Picturing-history-Hyde-Park-chapel.html

No, it's a lease alright. What confuses people is that even the lease is incredibly valuable because of its prime location. Church owns the building but not the land. Church could have set out the lease to run past 2038 but deliberately didn't bother, hence the questions to Pres Hinckley asking why this is.

As I recall, there's also some trickiness in the lease itself as the church couldn't obtain the lease for a chapel but had to call it a cultural centre with a chapel attached- the visitors centre is not just a missionary tool but meets the requirements of the lease. That road is zoned for cultural purposes, hence the V & A being a few doors along the road and the Science Museum being across the road and the Royal Albert Hall being at the Hyde Park end of the road,

Here, this explains the definition of leasehold, as opposed to freehold:

https://www.gov.uk/leasehold-property

See, having an end date to ownership is what raised the question posed in the church news to begin with.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Alex
Added the definition of leasehold