Final Judgement


jewels8
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i was told some perhaps  conflicting information from 2 different "church" sources, concerning the Final Judgement.  One mentioned that others will judge us ( I am thinking  of bishops, mission pres, etc) and that Christ will be our final judge, which I believe He will be, of course.  The other said in the final judgement it will be records, the tablet of our mind, and Chirst, but that there won't be others judging us.  Unfortunately, even Church leaders aren't perfect and I think they could complicate, as also false earthly records could complicate a person's final judgement.  What is the truth?

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IMO, if you truly want understanding, you should seek it from the scriptures and prophets.  The short answer is that the mechanical details of who will do what, where, when, and how have not been revealed in all that much detail.  Therefore, what you hear from different people will vary depending on whether they're emphasizing a particular portion of what has been revealed, or speaking generally, or even speculating.

The long answer is found by studying, pondering, and then praying about the various scriptures:

Whatever else is true, you needn't fear that someone will screw things up - the Lord is not about to allow a flawed being to mess up another being's eternity.  Whoever judges, ultimately God and Jesus Christ will see that all is done correctly.

Edited by zil
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This is a matter of opinion, in otherwords, my opinion on this is NOT anything dealing with the doctrine of the church. 

Just so we are clear, what I'm stating below is NOT DOCTRINE, nor anything close to it.   It is merely my opinion of the subject.

Edit: For the more direct answer to the question instead of following my thoughts on it though, if what I wrote is TLDR go to the section underneath the line I put in this post.

We know that as per the scriptures, the only judge is the Lord.  It is Christ who determines where we go and what becomes of us.  He is the final arbitrator and judge for us. 

However, we also know from the scriptures that it lies upon the heads of the twelve apostles to be the judges of their churches...the unknown is then, how is this done.

This is probably going to come out badly, but it is an unfortunate honesty that many do NOT want to hear.

The MORE I see the great EVIL that some LDS Leaders (for example, there was recently a case of a Bishop convicted of some very serious crimes towards children) do in the world, and the EVILS that they perpetrate...as well as many times wrong judgments and great evils that come from that...I am convinced that NO man will receive justice if they are judged by those who have been placed there by mortal men. 

Any who believe that those who are given power on this earth will have any such position or authority in the hereafter is merely deluding themselves to a degree...many times in their own vanity to put one individual over another individual.

What do I mean by this?

We believe that leaders in the LDS church are chosen by revelation, and this is true, but it is not always the most righteous in a ward or stake, or even the church that becomes the leader.  The individual that is chosen by the Lord is the individual that is NEEDED at that time to lead.  It means that in some way, somehow, they have something that qualifies them for some item that may be of major need for that area.

The answer then lies in the thing that these men are not chosen because they are necessarily the most righteous men in the church (and many a member is probably proclaiming that I'm a heretic at this point), but because they are the men that are NEEDED in the position that they fill.  They may be the most righteous, but that's NOT why they are called to their position.  The church is a HUGE organization today.  It has massive amounts of money, members, and property.  What the church needs are men that are familiar with how to handle these things and have received the experience and knowledge to lead and do these things.  It is by their experience and leadership that they have obtained in which they can make wise decisions in creating the most effective organization that the church can possess.

Would the Lord, who says he is no respecter of persons, respect one who is rich in this life and place them in judgment over the poor in this life?  Instead, it is made reference in Romans 2 about those with the law, without the law and many other situations...and that the LORD is the one who judges.

However, we also have it as evidenced that the twelve indeed judge their generation...so HOW exactly does this work?

I DO NOT KNOW.

However, it may work similar to a church court, where a judgment is made...however if it is a bad judgment it may be appealed upwards all the way to the First Presidency.  In this instance, it could be made all the way up to the Lord in heaven.

Now, I think it may go even further than that.  I have heard the same thing where people have stated that the Bishop and other leaders will be the judges in heaven.  My PERSONAL opinion is that this is not going to be the case, for I do not think an individual will be in multiple jeopardy from all the Bishops in their life.  The average lifespan in the US is around 72 years.  A typical Bishop these days in my area serves for around 5 years.  In one ward, for one who never moves, that would mean they would have to bring in 14 different Bishops...for each span of their life.  Considering we have a framework for the Kingdom of the Lord already, this idea is, to me, rather ridiculous.  It may mean each Bishop can be a witness, but there are further complications.  A Bishop may have experience on what they saw on the individual at the time, but they don't know the individual as well as the Lord, or as well as many other things.

To make it more complex, many people move, and so, in today's world, a person may end up having 20 or 30 or more Bishops in their lifetimes, Bishops who have no idea who that person was as a kid, or who that person becomes...it's impossible to judge an individuals life as a whole from the short time period a Bishop is over a ward.

So, I don't know how that would work...it's too many people in that case.  A Bishop is called as a judge in Israel and I imagine in some ways it is very similar to the judges of Israel of old.  This means that they are judges in relation to an individuals life HERE.  The judgments they make can be applied in the hereafter (for example, allowing one to be baptized, or, on the darker end, excommunicated...both of which have eternal consequences), but it is the judgment they make in THIS WORLD that are applied...they are not each individual the actual judges of a person in the next life.  That would not be a judge, but a jury.  I do not know how it would work, it may be that there is somehow one is selected or something, but I do not think every Bishop in your life will be melded into a single judge, and I do not think that the judgment is done by jury in heaven.  That once again is a personal opinion.  Hence, they are judges, and their judgments can hold in regards to eternal judgment, but it is, in my opinion, all of them that you have in this life are not your actual judge (Singular) in heaven.

Who then do I think would be the direct judges?  I'm not positive...I think the Lord is able to do it himself if he so desires. 

However, if he is not the direct judge, the alternate opinion I have is that he delegates.  Thus, he delegates to the twelve, and they also can delegate.  Does this go to the patriarchs or the Seventy, or the Bishops in heaven?  I do not know...however, I think the final delegation is even smaller.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think in the hereafter, the ones who will judge us in the hereafter will be our fathers (our earthly parent).  I think the judgment will come down to those individuals that should have known us best as children, and then if they were good fathers, as adults.  For those who did not have good fathers, there will be those who stand in their stead (perhaps a good Bishop or someone else...who knows), but it will be our fathers who are judges.  In that event though, I think we also will be our own judges to a degree.  We will be able to know where we will be the most happy, and be able to choose.  If that does NOT work concurrently with our Father's judgments...then, just as in our church, where we can appeal to a higher authority...I think it will also be able to be appealed to the higher authority who delegated it down.

Hence, it can go upwards...eventually to the twelve apostles themselves...then perhaps to the prophet of the dispensation...and then to the Lord.  In that, the Lord is the final judge and arbitrator, but at the same time, we are also very cognizant of our own judgment and basically can judge ourselves.  I think we will know what we deserve and what will make us happiest, but in the instance where we may not totally understand why, it will lie upon those who judge us to explain why we may be happier with some other judgment than what we may express originally.

So, yes, I think both can be true to a degree if you believe that the Lord delegates his authority to be a judge to others, but at the same time, will lie upon us in our own judgment.  In that degree it also could fall upon those of our generation, even the leaders so chosen of the Lord, even if they are not perfect, to also be judges (and that may be Bishops, it may not be), but they will NOT hold authority for a final judgment that goes counter to our will...that judgment ONLY lies upon the lord, and I think in that instance he will explain it to us as lovingly as anyone can on why the judgment chosen for us will be the best one to make us the happiest in the hereafter and for eternity.

As I said, the above is NOT doctrine, not even close.  It is merely an opinion.

In fact, I'd say anyone who says a definitive thing on this idea beyond saying that the Lord is the final judge, and that it also states that HIS specific twelve apostles and also the Nephite twelve he personally chose (who judged the Nephites) were judges are probably also merely stating an opinion and not anything doctrinal either.

Long post but I think the actual answer is simpler, and yet more complex than a mere stating that some would think.  Also, some of the traditions of the some LDS church members in regards to the authority they try to grant others sometimes troubles me to no end...probably because in some instances it implies a direct contradiction of what the Lord states in his own words in the New Testament at times.  However, the comfort is that this is NOT actual doctrine, but, as my ideas above are, merely opinions they have rather than anything official.

PS: Some may ask about Sons of Perdition and if they would choose to be cast out.  I would say, they, more than anyone else will choose that fate, simply because they will choose NOT to accept salvation and flatly deny it just as they denied the Holy Ghost.  They will do it of their own accord, much like we will also choose our own fate...but in their instance, there may be no need for them to even appeal as they have already chosen their fate and judgment even prior to the final judgment day occurring.

Edited by JohnsonJones
It's a long post, but a divider for those who just want the answer to the question in regards to my opinion.
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On 11/25/2017 at 10:01 AM, jewels8 said:

i was told some perhaps  conflicting information from 2 different "church" sources, concerning the Final Judgement.  One mentioned that others will judge us ( I am thinking  of bishops, mission pres, etc) and that Christ will be our final judge, which I believe He will be, of course.  The other said in the final judgement it will be records, the tablet of our mind, and Chirst, but that there won't be others judging us.  Unfortunately, even Church leaders aren't perfect and I think they could complicate, as also false earthly records could complicate a person's final judgement.  What is the truth?

What is the truth? The truth is that we are judged by both. The conflict is simply removing "there won't be others judging us." We are judged by those God has called and by records.

Is your concern that the Father is not able to discern between "false" earthly records, and "accurate" earthly records? From this thought, I would specify you are thinking too deeply on something very simple. There is nothing unfortunate about Church leaders, nor ourselves, being imperfect. Even our earthly court systems take into account "imperfect" records and  "imperfect" eye witnesses. The difference is we have a "perfect" judge for our final judgement.

We shouldn't be surprised that if out of the mouth of two or three "imperfect" witnesses every word is established, that our Father in heaven will also establish judgement via multiple "imperfect" witnesses and then judge them through his perfect mind's eye. I am really not worried about Church leaders complicating a "perfect" judge. Nothing to worry about or to cause worry.

EDIT: In light of this it would be more wise for us to pay attention to these verses, "And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof." (Source)

"The show of their countenance doth witness against them, and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, and they cannot hide it. Wo unto their souls, for they have rewarded evil unto themselves!" (Source)

Our concern should be on our "countenance", our decisions that lead us to Christ, not what will not be complicated.

 

 

Edited by Anddenex
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On 11/25/2017 at 10:01 AM, jewels8 said:

i was told some perhaps  conflicting information from 2 different "church" sources, concerning the Final Judgement.  One mentioned that others will judge us ( I am thinking  of bishops, mission pres, etc) and that Christ will be our final judge, which I believe He will be, of course.  The other said in the final judgement it will be records, the tablet of our mind, and Chirst, but that there won't be others judging us.  Unfortunately, even Church leaders aren't perfect and I think they could complicate, as also false earthly records could complicate a person's final judgement.  What is the truth?

You are kind of asking 2 different questions here.  "Final" is reserved for Jesus Christ and he alone.

Will bishops and stake presidents and others be involved in other aspects of the judgement process, absolutely, to the degree that they have specific insight into the individuals that were within their stewardship and none others.

At the point of any pre-final judgements are being considered we are dealing with resurrected beings, whose imperfections should give way to those of perfected individuals who know the mind and will of the Lord.

The highest level of pre-final judgment according to Brigham Young will be that of Joseph Smith who ultimately judges everyone in this dispensation, again according to the same principle of his influence of judgement being limited to his stewardship, this just happens to be every person born into this last dispensation.

The field of judgment is governed by several key rules, as ye judge so shall ye be judged is hugely critical.  Have they had the ordinances and did they keep their covenants?  Did they forgive all offenses against them? Did they repent.  Did they free themselves from the burden of being judged by the law so they could claim mercy or did they compel judgment by the law because they demanded the law against their offenders. One cannot claim mercy if one has demanded justice by the law against those that offended them.  How valiant were they in building up the kingdom of God? In certain respects, I feel that judgment can be less about an addressing of individual offenses, and more of an evaluation of the above points.  Certain behaviors such as charity which "covereth a multitude of sins" become the focus of judgment.  For those who can claim mercy for their compliance to proper behaviors it will be less about the tedium's of our failures and more about the direction we have established as our overall direction of growth.

To me, as I will be one of those judges, I feel confident that within the realm of my experience with the individuals in questions, I can contribute somewhat to these kinds of witnessing testimonies.

Edited by brlenox
To add a judgmental clause...
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We are judged according to the light and knowledge we have been given in this life.  Our bishops, stake presidents, even our parents, missionaries, and many others were all involved in our spiritual education.  Thus they will be able to judge what knowledge we were given.  Thus that will be taken into account when Christ judges us.

It may be more accurate to say that they will be "witnesses."  But that isn't the complete picture either. 

Given this point of view (and it is just a point of view) I believe that when we say "others will judge us" it is somewhat metaphorical.  We are judged by their influence in our lives and our spiritual upbringing.  We are judged by the amount of light we received/denied from them.

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On 11/25/2017 at 12:01 PM, jewels8 said:

i was told some perhaps  conflicting information from 2 different "church" sources, concerning the Final Judgement.  One mentioned that others will judge us ( I am thinking  of bishops, mission pres, etc) and that Christ will be our final judge, which I believe He will be, of course.  The other said in the final judgement it will be records, the tablet of our mind, and Chirst, but that there won't be others judging us.  Unfortunately, even Church leaders aren't perfect and I think they could complicate, as also false earthly records could complicate a person's final judgement.  What is the truth?

Addressing only the few points of concern that you raised:

Christ judges us but delegates, for example, 1 Nephi 12:9-10 (also Mormon 3:18-19; D&C 29:12): "And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel. And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood." 

Those who judge us will use heavenly records as a reference point (Revelation 20:12) and our own hearts (Alma 12:13-14):

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

"Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence."

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The true judge will be the stopwatch.

 

We will each be placed in a cultural hall full of tables and chairs that need to be put away after a church activity. 

 

Then we shall really see who has been practicing throughout their probationary time on earth and who hasn't. 

 

"I'm sorry, but you were only able to put away a Telestial amount of chairs and tables..." 

 

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4 minutes ago, Colirio said:

The true judge will be the stopwatch.

We will each be placed in a cultural hall full of tables and chairs that need to be put away after a church activity. 

Then we shall really see who has been practicing throughout their probationary time on earth and who hasn't. 

"I'm sorry, but you were only able to put away a Telestial amount of chairs and tables..." 

 

Then I'm golden. A few months ago, I learned the secret to folding up the metal folding chairs quickly. And in the interest of helping my fellow MormonHubbers gain their exaltation, I will share it with you:

Don't put your foot on the chair's rear horizontal strut and pull up to close the chair. Instead, grab the chair from behind by the top of the backrest, tilt the chair waaaaay back, and pull toward you. Magically, the chair folds right up! Better yet, do it with a chair in each hand. You will be the wonder of Priesthood opening exercises. Everyone will cheer your brilliance.

You can thank me when we're all seated at the table in the celestial kingdom. Before we, you know, fold up the chairs.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Then I'm golden. A few months ago, I learned the secret to folding up the metal folding chairs quickly. And in the interest of helping my fellow MormonHubbers gain their exaltation, I will share it with you:

Don't put your foot on the chair's rear horizontal strut and pull up to close the chair. Instead, grab the chair from behind by the top of the backrest, tilt the chair waaaaay back, and pull toward you. Magically, the chair folds right up! Better yet, do it with a chair in each hand. You will be the wonder of Priesthood opening exercises. Everyone will cheer your brilliance.

You can thank me when we're all seated at the table in the celestial kingdom. Before we, you know, fold up the chairs.

Sorry to break it to ya but the perfection of setting up and taking down tables is only a telestial grade ability. The one who, after a church activity, inspects and even washes each chair before putting it up is a candidate for the terrestrial while celestial grade is reserved for those who not only do all that but take it upon themselves the actual repair of the broken ones and restores them to the fold.

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Sorry to break it to ya but the perfection of setting up and taking down tables is only a telestial grade ability. The one who, after a church activity, inspects and even washes each chair before putting it up is a candidate for the terrestrial while celestial grade is reserved for those who not only do all that but take it upon themselves the actual repair of the broken ones and restores them to the fold.

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On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 10:01 AM, jewels8 said:

i was told some perhaps  conflicting information from 2 different "church" sources, concerning the Final Judgement.  One mentioned that others will judge us ( I am thinking  of bishops, mission pres, etc) and that Christ will be our final judge, which I believe He will be, of course.  The other said in the final judgement it will be records, the tablet of our mind, and Chirst, but that there won't be others judging us.  Unfortunately, even Church leaders aren't perfect and I think they could complicate, as also false earthly records could complicate a person's final judgement.  What is the truth?

 

I believe the point of the final judgment is to determine that you have considered all possibilities and have determined exactly what it is you desire for the eternities.  Since this is the “final” opportunity for any choice – I believe the important point is what you have determined and made a choice based on pure and complete understanding.  I believe it was Satan that suggested that the desire of the individual not be the consideration so much but rather the desire of the one in power to judge the fate of each individual.

 

The Traveler

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On 11/25/2017 at 10:01 AM, jewels8 said:

i was told some perhaps  conflicting information from 2 different "church" sources, concerning the Final Judgement.  One mentioned that others will judge us ( I am thinking  of bishops, mission pres, etc) and that Christ will be our final judge, which I believe He will be, of course.  The other said in the final judgement it will be records, the tablet of our mind, and Chirst, but that there won't be others judging us.  Unfortunately, even Church leaders aren't perfect and I think they could complicate, as also false earthly records could complicate a person's final judgement.  What is the truth?

Not to confuse things further, but I believe we will also judge ourselves.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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9 hours ago, Vort said:

You can thank me when we're all seated at the table in the celestial kingdom. Before we, you know, fold up the chairs.

Slide-closing and carrying 2 chairs in each hand is really the only way to be Celestially-efficient! 

 

In keeping with the theme of this thread, I plan to FORGIVE those who eat and leave from the church activities without staying to take down the chairs and tables. My NON-JUDGMENT (and service) of others is the only shot I have of making it past the T Kingdoms...... 

 

3 Nephi 14:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

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12 hours ago, Vort said:

Then I'm golden. A few months ago, I learned the secret to folding up the metal folding chairs quickly. And in the interest of helping my fellow MormonHubbers gain their exaltation, I will share it with you:

Don't put your foot on the chair's rear horizontal strut and pull up to close the chair. Instead, grab the chair from behind by the top of the backrest, tilt the chair waaaaay back, and pull toward you. Magically, the chair folds right up! Better yet, do it with a chair in each hand. You will be the wonder of Priesthood opening exercises. Everyone will cheer your brilliance.

You can thank me when we're all seated at the table in the celestial kingdom. Before we, you know, fold up the chairs.

There is a little known exception to your "magical" chair folding technique, which turned not a few otherwise brilliant priesthood holders into seeming fools in my Ward. I will grant Celestial brownie points for anyone who can guess what that exception is. ;)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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7 hours ago, wenglund said:

There is a little known exception to your "magical" chair folding technique, which turned not a few otherwise brilliant priesthood holders into seeming fools in my Ward. I will grant Celestial brownie points for anyone who can guess what that exception is. ;)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ooo!  Ooo!  I want brownie points!

I'm confused by your wording.  By "exception" do you mean that this technique doesn't work sometimes?  Or do you mean there are some times when a different method works better?  Obviously @Vort is talking about the newer articulated mechanism chairs as opposed to the old fashioned single folding chairs.

Edited by Guest
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7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Ooo!  Ooo!  I want brownie points!

I'm confused by your wording.  By "exception" do you mean that this technique doesn't work sometimes?  Or do you mean there are some times when a different method works better?  Obviously @Vort is talking about the newer articulated mechanism chairs as opposed to the old fashioned single folding chairs.

 

Definingly he is not talking about the stacking chairs that do not fold.  At least that is my opinion – but I am quite sure several on this forum will disagree with me - just out of principle.  :rolleyes:

 

The Traveler

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On 11/29/2017 at 6:15 AM, Carborendum said:

Ooo!  Ooo!  I want brownie points!

I'm confused by your wording.  By "exception" do you mean that this technique doesn't work sometimes?  Or do you mean there are some times when a different method works better?  Obviously @Vort is talking about the newer articulated mechanism chairs as opposed to the old fashioned single folding chairs.

Not wishing to keep everyone (if anyone) in suspense, the exception is when the chairs are new. The unworn paint presents such resistance as to require  foot-leverage on the legs of the chair to enable folding. :-/

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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5 hours ago, wenglund said:

Not wishing to keep everyone (if anyone) in suspense, the exception is when the chairs are new. The unworn paint presents such resistance as to require  foot-leverage on the legs of the chair to enable folding. :-/

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wait... So, @Vort was saying that you shouldn't put your foot down at all?  Then he's talking about the old fashioned chairs.  The new articulating chairs require the foot or you can never get them to close.

So, let's see, we're talking about the doctrine of final judgment and we've now found ourselves on the particulars of chair folding.  I guess it's true, Mormon men really are experts in how to set up and put away chairs.

Edited by Guest
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12 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I guess it's true, Mormon men really are experts in how to set up and put away chairs.

And THAT's what Adam-ondi-Ahman is REALLY about.

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire."

 

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Just now, mordorbund said:

And THAT's what Adam-ondi-Ahman is REALLY about.

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire."

LOL!

I sat down with my son and explained to him,"Son, it's about time that I told you about the most important duties the Mormon men are expected to master.  Just include this in your book of "How to be a man."  Mormon men are expected to be experts in the setting up and taking down of folding chairs."

Son: -_- How does that make any sense?

Me: Well, just consider how often we set stuff up for events, activities, classes, even sacrament when there is an overflow.  At stake functions what is every man asked to do?  Setup and put away the chairs.  How many do you see ducking out of that responsibility?  Even the men who are only half-way active will participate in that role.  And how fast do we get it done?  Even with all the kids running around, I don't recall a single stake conference where it took more than 15 minutes to put away about 1000 chairs.

Son:  Yeah, ok, whatever.  But I still don't think it has to do with my salvation.

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28 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Son:  Yeah, ok, whatever.  But I still don't think it has to do with my salvation.

Oh ye of little faith.  I can see it now, in the next life, there's a call for men to come set up chairs for some meeting - those who come are welcomed into the celestial kingdom (but they have to set up their own chair (throne)), those who don't come, well, they're left behind wondering where everybody went. ;)

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