THE OTHER SHEEP


zlarry123
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Greetings

I'm new at this stuff, and at this time studying with missionaries in my city. It seems when looking into the Mormon doctrine I find more questions then answers as time moves on. Which is a good thing, and an opportunity to compare notes with other enjoying the same hope of salvation through Christ.

Since the New Testament is loaded with information concerning Jews and Gentiles, why do Mormons not consider the other sheep Gentiles in  John 10:16. And how do Nephites fit into this picture in place of the uncircumcised in the first century.

Larry

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Welcome, @zlarry123!  Your question about "other sheep" was answered by the Lord himself when he appeared to the Nephites after his resurrection.  You can find the account in 3 Nephi starting with chapter 11.  This specific question was answered in 3 Nephi 15:11-24 ("those twelve" referred to in these verses would be the 12 disciples chosen from among the Nephites to minister to the Nephites - it does not refer to the 12 apostles chosen during Jesus' mortal life to minister in the old world):

Quote

11 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he said unto those twelve whom he had chosen:

12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.

13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

 

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Hi Larry, welcome to the forums and (more importantly) welcome to learning more about Christ!  I see @zil already nailed your question, but I still want to say hi! Feel free to ask anything you'd like here, or just to hang out and have a good time :)

 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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3 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

Greetings

I'm new at this stuff, and at this time studying with missionaries in my city. It seems when looking into the Mormon doctrine I find more questions then answers as time moves on. Which is a good thing, and an opportunity to compare notes with other enjoying the same hope of salvation through Christ.

Since the New Testament is loaded with information concerning Jews and Gentiles, why do Mormons not consider the other sheep Gentiles in  John 10:16. And how do Nephites fit into this picture in place of the uncircumcised in the first century.

Larry

It is an interesting interpretation by many that the Lord is speaking of the Gentiles, and in fact, in common Christianity, this is the common interpretation.

However, among a few Christian Jews (there is such a thing) and among Mormons there is another interpretation normally not considered among the "Gentile" churches, or the modern Christian Churches among the Catholic and many (but not all) Protestant denominations.

The Gentiles were there in Jerusalem at the time that Christ was teaching, and they in fact, heard his voice.  Hence, there would be other sheep that would be out there...but who would they be?

When the Jews returned to Israel and Jerusalem, not ALL of Israel came with them.  In fact, Jew is short for Judah, or the tribe of Judah.  Among the tribe of Judah were a few of the other tribes, but for the most part, the other tribes were not there among the Jews.  Hence we have the term for the lost tribes of Israel.

These, therefore, by logic, would be the other sheep.  They are literally the children of Israel, and were not at Jerusalem and hence did NOT hear the voice of the Lord there.  However, as per the prophecies in the Old Testament, the Lord was specifically sent to the Israelites, not just the Jews.  As such, they would literally be of the flock of the Lord from the time they were the chosen people onwards.

To make this even more applicable, at the time the Lord was talking about this, he had made it clear that during his mortal lifetime, the Gentiles were NOT chosen (though as the Gentile woman's story, they could be as dogs who got the crumbs, they were not the people currently at the table as they would become after his death and resurrection).  He was sent specifically to the Israelites and the Lord's "chosen" people at this time.  Hence, when he is talking about sheep that are currently his, this should not include the Gentiles (this would come AFTER his death, when they were adopted in or when all men were allowed under his sacrifice.).  He is talking about the sheep that are currently in his flock, not those who are to come, in that manner (though the Gentile application is equally acceptable), and hence that would include the other Israelites (or the lost tribes) that were not in the land of Israel at that time.

As Mormons believe that one of those lost tribes were represented in the Americas by the Nephite and Lamanite civilization (the tribe of Manasseh), they would be ONE of the many sheep that he was referring to, but not the ONLY sheep he was referring to.

Even under the idea that there were others that were NOT part of the tribe of Judah, or specifically Judah, thus stating it was the Gentiles, it would still be somewhat applicable as those in America were not in Israel or Jerusalem either, but would still need a way to hear the message that the Messiah had come.

However, in general, the Mormons believe that the Lord is referring to the other members of the children of Israel referred to throughout the Bible, but did not return with the tribe of Judah (and hence the Jews) to Israel when they returned to that land. 

Interestingly enough though, Mormons believe that there are those who were part of the lost tribes of Israel among the Gentiles (and apparently a lot of them among those who are European, as that is where the bloodline is referred to in LDS blessings that talk about this tribe relationship), though normally it is primarily from the tribe of Ephraim.

The Book of Mormon is only ONE of the records of one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, in theory there are at least a few others out there, but we have not found them yet or had them given to us by the Lord nor had them revealed to us at this time.

The Book of Mormon though, being as from the tribe of Manasseh and translated and given over mostly to those from the tribe of Ephraim would fall under the stick of Joseph (whereas the books used by the Jews would be the book of Judah), whereas the other tribes out there would in theory also have been visited by the Lord in the flesh (probably as a resurrected being though) and heard his voice and perhaps also written about it.  We do not have those writings though.  However, it are these individuals, or the tribes of Israel specifically that Mormons feel are being referred to when the Lord talks about his sheep during his Mortal ministry (which would include the tribe of Judah or Jews as they were the ones he was talking to at the time).

Hopefully that explains the Mormon perspective in a little more detail, or at least my take on it.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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Greetings Brothers and sister, and thanks for responding.

Upper casing  is mine for clarity only.

A poster said....

"The Gentiles were there in Jerusalem at the time that Christ was teaching, and they in fact, heard his voice.  Hence, there would be other sheep that would be out there...but who would they be?"

I deem it's more than hearing the voice of the Shepherd

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT HEARETH MY WORD, AND BELIEVETH on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE. KJV

 

The Jewish Nation had the first opportunity to hear His voice and believe. Those that were in the sheep pen at the time.

When Jesus gave the analogy concerning the "other sheep"  I think he had the Gentiles in mind. And that the Apostle Paul is in harmony with His words that completes the panoramic scene of that analogy.

To continue

Firstly the timing in question of those hearing the shepherds voice. i.E our Lord.

John 10:16 And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there SHALL BE ONE FOLD, and one shepherd. KJV

Note  The "other sheep I have" in John.seems to be Jesus referring in the present tense. However I believe not so.

Romans 4:17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. KJV

Note  "calleth those things which be not as though they were" Future tense!

Note  "they shall hear my voice" Future tense!

Compare

"but who would they be" That is the other sheep!

Ephesians 2:12 THAT AT THAT TIME YE WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus YE WHO SOMETIMES WERE FAR OFF are made nigh BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Or one body one fold :)

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 FOR THROUGH HIM WE BOTH HAVE ACCESS BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; KJV

"there SHALL BE ONE FOLD, and one shepherd"

The wall as in the sheep pen enclosing the sheep was the Mosaic policy which was taken out of the way by the blood of Christ.

Larry

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2 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

The Jewish Nation had the first opportunity to hear His voice and believe. Those that were in the sheep pen at the time.

When Jesus gave the analogy concerning the "other sheep"  I think he had the Gentiles in mind. And that the Apostle Paul is in harmony with His words that completes the panoramic scene of that analogy.

To continue

Firstly the timing in question of those hearing the shepherds voice. i.E our Lord.

John 10:16 And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there SHALL BE ONE FOLD, and one shepherd. KJV

Note  The "other sheep I have" in John.seems to be Jesus referring in the present tense. However I believe not so.

Romans 4:17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. KJV

Note  "calleth those things which be not as though they were" Future tense!

Note  "they shall hear my voice" Future tense!

 

You asked about the LDS interpretation.  In answer to your thoughts, as you stated, his statement on the sheep was stated in the present tense.  However, those that were presently in the fold (not those who WOULD BE HIS SHEEP, but those who were PRESENTLY his sheep) were not hearing his voice at present.  They were not there.  They did not receive any words that he gave them, and there was no way they would receive his words.

Though the Jews understood that there were the other tribes, many Christians try to ignore or forget about them (which interpretation dates back to a few centuries after the Lord, but during the early Christian Church in Europe where they even tried to forget about the Jews being under the covenant and killed many Jews simply for being part of the house of Israel). 

However, these lost tribes would NOT see the Lord prior to his resurrection, but after, hence it was in the FUTURE that they would hear his voice and know that the New and Everlasting Covenant had come as the Old Covenant was fulfilled.

Now, whereas the Book of John was written during the Lord's Mortal ministry, Romans was written AFTER his death and resurrection.  That is the future, when the gospel was given to all men...which is a vastly different approach and timing than prior to the fulfillment of the law.  Hence, John is the Lord among the Chosen people prior to the fulfillment of the law, or the Lord's Death and Resurrection.  Romans is AFTER the fulfillment of the Law, or the Lord's death and Resurrection. 

Quote

Compare

"but who would they be" That is the other sheep!

Ephesians 2:12 THAT AT THAT TIME YE WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus YE WHO SOMETIMES WERE FAR OFF are made nigh BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Or one body one fold :)

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 FOR THROUGH HIM WE BOTH HAVE ACCESS BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; KJV

"there SHALL BE ONE FOLD, and one shepherd"

The wall as in the sheep pen enclosing the sheep was the Mosaic policy which was taken out of the way by the blood of Christ.

Larry

AS stated, many of the Gentile churches, or those which denounced the Jews (and Jewish Christians even, ironically) forget that in regards to the various folds and groups as listed per the bible were actually composed and referred to as the different tribes, or the twelve tribes of Israel.  This was in the Old Testament when it was the Jews who were the chosen people of the Lord.  They were STILL the chosen people of the Lord whereas the Gentiles were NOT considered part of the Lord's people at that time.  This is why there was even the difference between who was considered a Jew, and who was considered a Gentile.  The Gentiles were NOT part of the flock, BUT, 5/6, or a majority of  the flock were NOT at Jerusalem.  After around 800 AD (and the conquest of Rome by which Charlemagne became Holy Roman Emperor), there was a purging of the Jews, and in this time, a lot of the writing was understood differently by some as they wanted to write out the Jews and the Israelites from the covenant or being the covenant people.

Hence, much of the current understanding relays it to be solely as a discussion of the Gentiles rather than a comprehension that it was a reference to the rest of the Lord's flock at that time who were not able to hear the Lord's voice, but would hear his voice.

It is also a different interpretation from the general Christian to specific smaller groups of Christians.  The General Christian has the theology of the Catholic Church that Christ no longer comes or visits man.  In this light, they do not accept it could be a literal hearing of the voice of Christ.

However, Mormons believe that Christ continued to come and visit and teach people after his death and resurrection and can continue to do so today.  This is why we believe in prophets and apostles, even in our day.  In that light, we DO believe that Christ went and taught others after his death and resurrection.

This is important in regards to your verse above, where as per the general European Christian thoughts (and this is more a European slant from those churches of the Roman Catholic origins), as there could be no visitation during the time of Paul (though odd as it is since Paul himself was visited by the Lord, as per the Catholic tradition, this is no longer possible, just a visitation of the Holy Spirit), thus the future tense would be related to spiritual hearing of the voice.

For LDS though, it can also mean a literal hearing of the voice, which means a bodily visit of the Lord to the other tribes of Israel who were his people (literally, by blood as well as the flesh as they were all related as the children of Israel, the covenant people, the original flock, of which 5/6 where NOT at Jerusalem, nor anywhere close to it). 

This is basically an LDS understanding of the verse, but as I said, other Christians can understand it differently.

Now, there is the interpretation that it was to the Gentiles, as you stated.  It's as valid as any for the Main Western Christian churches (as I stated above).

It should be noted that perhaps this is a reason sometimes those from nations that are not of European descent absolutely disregard the European interpretation of the verse of other sheep, because of discrimination against those who are not European, as in the past at times John 10 it was interpreted strictly to mean those Gentiles who were white as opposed to the Jew, Arab, or any other that Christians killed commonly as non-Christian and unable to be converted in the Middle Ages and Renaissance...though it started to change in the later Renaissance years.

However, this interpretation that it applies to the Gentiles rather than those who were referred to as part of the chosen people does NOT stop it from referring to the Nephites or Lamanites civilization.  In this, it would not just be to the Gentile in Rome, but to ANYONE who had not yet been able to hear about the New Covenant after the Old Covenant was fulfilled.  Hence, they too (and all men who were not the Jews at Jerusalem) would need to hear his voice and be of one fold under one Shepard. 

Either interpretation works in regards to the Nephites and Lamanite civilization receiving a visit from the Lord, if one accepts that the Lord still visited individuals after his death and resurrection.  It only becomes problematic under two circumstances that I can see, one of which is common for many Christians today (but not all).  If one does not believe that Christ still can and does visit and teach men, then the idea of him visiting other people that were not in contact with those in the Roman Empire and it's environs would be heretical.

The other circumstance is FAR less typical these days, and normally seen as unchristian by most Major Christian sects today.  As I briefly mentioned before, several hundred years ago, the idea of those who could become Christian was mostly limited to those who were White and of the right European stock.  It were those who were the Gentiles being spoken of, while those who were not of the right stock, or were not White, were considered enemies to be killed (not that some of those enemies had any different of a philosophy, they also being out to subjugate and if possible convert the Europeans to their religion, but as lesser members of it or as slaves).  It was a brutal time.  However, that interpretation has typically been tossed out these days and disavowed by almost every major Christian religion. 

Now days, the Major Christian Denominations accept all men as those who can accept Christ.  In that light, it typically falls under those who do not believe in continuing revelation from the Lord that dominate much of Western Christianity.  This is probably the primary problem many may have with the Lord visiting the Nephites and Lamanites or other people that were nowhere close to the same fenced in area as those in the Eurasia continents that his ministry took place. 

But, whether you prefer the commonly held Western Christian philosophy on the verse (it refers to the Gentiles, even those who heard his voice when he was teaching already, and any other Gentile the world over), or the one I presented, both would apply equally to individuals who were not Jews but living in the Americas at the time as long as you can believe that the Lord continues to visit men today, and that indeed, he can speak to us and answer us directly (whether by the spirit or as he did to Paul, in person) today.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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Hi Larry,

Earlier you specified that you were looking " why do Mormons not consider the other sheep Gentiles in  John 10:16".  The Mormon answer is "because Himself Christ said so".  His exact words to the Nephi people were "24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me."  (emphasis mine).  When Christ said John 10:16, his visit to the Nephites had not happen yet (obviously it has now).  

LDS of course should believe that the Gentiles can hear the Gospel and be saved (John 5:24), hence the heavy emphasis on sharing the Gospel and bringing everyone into one fold.   Matt. 24:14Matt. 28:19Mark 16:15 (Morm. 9:22), etc (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/missionary-work.html?lang=eng&letter=M).  There's many of them.  Yes, these people shall later be Christ's sheep.  It's not just who Christ was referring to specifically in John 10:16.  

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Greeting Thanks for responding, good stuff

The poster responded to my prior position!

"You asked about the LDS interpretation.  In answer to your thoughts, as you stated, HIS STATEMENT ON THE SHEEP WAS STATED IN THE PRESENT TENSE.  However, those that were presently in the fold (not those who WOULD BE HIS SHEEP, but those who were PRESENTLY his sheep) were not hearing his voice at present.  They were not there.  They did not receive any words that he gave them, and there was no way they would receive his words"

My take

YOU MISUNDERSTOOD what I said, and getting at via Romans. Perhaps we can read it again.

My quote  

"Note  The "other sheep I have" in JOHN. "SEEMS" TO BE JESUS REFERRING IN THE PRESENT TENSE. However I believe not so.

In other words, "seems to be present tense"

Romans 4:17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. KJV

Note  "calleth those things which be not as though they were" future tense!

Note  "they shall hear my voice" future tense!"

Also the poster said and misunderstood why I referenced Romans.

"Now, whereas the Book of John was written during the Lord's Mortal ministry, Romans was written AFTER his death and resurrection.  That is the future, when the gospel was given to all men...which is a vastly different approach and timing than prior to the fulfillment of the law.  Hence, John is the Lord among the Chosen people prior to the fulfillment of the law, or the Lord's Death and Resurrection.  Romans is AFTER the fulfillment of the Law, or the Lord's death and Resurrection."

Regretfully once more a misunderstanding, perhaps produce by  my style of writing.

 

Romans.

Romans 4:17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. KJV

Romans 4:17

[And calleth ...] THAT IS, THOSE THINGS WHICH HE FORETELS AND PROMISES ARE SO CERTAIN, THAT HE MAY SPEAK OF THEM AS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE. Thus, in relation to Abraham, God, instead of simply promising that he would make him the father of many nations, SPEAKS OF IT AS ALREADY DONE, "I have made thee," etc. In his own mind, or purpose, he had so constituted him, and IT WAS SO CERTAIN THAT IT WOULD TAKE PLACE, that he might speak of it as already done .Barnes'

I only had in mind the form on which Jesus speaks, not the actual occurrence which took place in Romans.

"and calleth those things which be not as though they were"  In other words the timing of the arrival of the other sheep which  appear legally following the resurrection of our Lord.

 

I believe Jesus had in mind audience relevance pertaining to the first century Jews, and not something taking place in America some thousands of years later.

As the saying goes, "what happened in Jerusalem stays in Jerusalem" However the panorama includes the whole world.

Regards, Larry

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Just clarifying LDS views here:

12 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

I believe Jesus had in mind audience relevance pertaining to the first century Jews, and not something taking place in America some thousands of years later.

LDS believe that Christ's in-person visit to the Nephite's happened 2000 years ago, shortly after His ascension in Jerusalem.  

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Hi Jane

Why did I ask the question!

My question are starting to be answered, and I appreciate the responses. If allowed I will continue to do so on different subject matters. Hopefully in a family surrounding sitting at a table to disgust spiritual food. :)

My understanding in many way is different than mainstream Christianity. That is why I don't belong to any denomination or nondenominational church. But I will discuss with anyone on an interchange basis the word of God That is my joy in life as is yours also.

 The reasons I entered this Mormon forum here was to get a hold on what you believe, and give my own opinion. I hope we can stand here on neutral ground since we both agree on salvation through Christ atonement. A Mormon missionary doing the Lord's work once told me "we love question."

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: KJV

With that said, no one has a handle on all truth, and without doubt not myself. We are all still learning aren't 

Your brought up ....

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and "then shall the end come." KJV

My question is "the end of what" did Jesus have in mind in the Olivet discourses.

Regards, Larry

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8 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Hi Jane

Why did I ask the question!

My question are starting to be answered, and I appreciate the responses. If allowed I will continue to do so on different subject matters. Hopefully in a family surrounding sitting at a table to disgust spiritual food. :)

 

Hopefully you mean to discuss spiritual food.  Nothing worse than disgusting food.  :)

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5 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

My question are starting to be answered, and I appreciate the responses. If allowed I will continue to do so on different subject matters. Hopefully in a family surrounding sitting at a table to disgust spiritual food. :)

My understanding in many way is different than mainstream Christianity. That is why I don't belong to any denomination or nondenominational church. But I will discuss with anyone on an interchange basis the word of God That is my joy in life as is yours also.

Awesome!

5 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

The reasons I entered this Mormon forum here was to get a hold on what you believe, and give my own opinion. I hope we can stand here on neutral ground since we both agree on salvation through Christ atonement. A Mormon missionary doing the Lord's work once told me "we love question."

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: KJV

With that said, no one has a handle on all truth, and without doubt not myself. We are all still learning aren't 

Great!

Bytheway, your right to believe and worship according to the dictates of your own conscious is so important to us LDS folks it's literally stated in our Articles of Faith (it's #11 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

5 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Your brought up ....

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and "then shall the end come." KJV

My question is "the end of what" did Jesus have in mind in the Olivet discourses.

The millennium.  Good resource on LDS views on that: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-45-the-millennium?lang=eng

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On 11/25/2017 at 3:23 PM, zlarry123 said:

Greetings

I'm new at this stuff, and at this time studying with missionaries in my city. It seems when looking into the Mormon doctrine I find more questions then answers as time moves on. Which is a good thing, and an opportunity to compare notes with other enjoying the same hope of salvation through Christ.

Since the New Testament is loaded with information concerning Jews and Gentiles, why do Mormons not consider the other sheep Gentiles in  John 10:16. And how do Nephites fit into this picture in place of the uncircumcised in the first century.

Larry

The sheep are the covenant people of Israel. The Lord also extends many promises to the Gentiles, both in Isaiah and in the Book of Mormon, wherein they are brought into the covenant fold. Circumcision was done away with among the Nephites (Moroni 8:8).

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On 11/26/2017 at 10:11 AM, zlarry123 said:

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and "then shall the end come." KJV

My question is "the end of what" did Jesus have in mind in the Olivet discourses.

The rest of the chapter makes it clear - the end of the world, which means the end of the wicked.

The verses linked here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/world-end-of?lang=eng&letter=W

And the Joseph Smith translation of Matthew 24 may be of interest (verse 14 in the KJV is verse 31 in the JST): https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-m/1?lang=eng

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Quote

"Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and "then shall the end come." KJV

My question is "the end of what" did Jesus have in mind in the Olivet discourses.

The rest of the chapter makes it clear - the end of the world, which means the end of the wicked.

The verses linked here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/world-end-of?lang=eng&letter=W

 

Quote

"And the Joseph Smith translation of Matthew 24 may be of interest (verse 14 in the KJV is verse 31 in the JST): https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-m/1?lang=eng"

 Thanks for the links Zil I read it!

And again, this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked; Joseph Smith—Matthew Verse 31

Compare the alteration

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. KJV

By adding "or the destruction of the wicked" I believe it throughs off the "end will come" which should be the center of attention. Since I don' t believe Jesus was referring to, or the end of the system of things in our future.

This may come as a surprise but this prophecy was fulfilled in the first century according to the King James Interpretation in the bible "INSPIRED BY GOD" that surely Joseph Smith read and came  to know Jesus Christ our Lord. By the way to know him is to love him!

2 Timothy 3:16 All SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: KJV 

This begs the question of the "end of what in the KJV" did Jesus have in mine. Most of Christianity believe it to be the end of the world, or the wicked system of thing yet to come in or future. 

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" Was the gospel preach to all the world in the first century. Or the then know world in the context of the Olivet Discourse by Jesus. Matthew 24:1-35

Note the following verses were Penned in the first century, and the past tense.

Colossians 1:23 gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister; KJV

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE. KJV

Colossians 1:23 "WHICH YE HAVE HEARD, AND WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN KJB

So we can ask ourselves what end did Jesus have in mind, the key to same in planted in the opening verse Matthew 24:1-4 Please read and see what you come up with if you care to do so. Keep in the the subject matter stemming from Matthew chapter 23 flowing directly into chapter 24 with no break It may be profitable to come those verse with other translations. and find the key word altered from the original in the KJV 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. KJV

By adding "or the destruction of the wicked" I believe it throughs off the "end will come" which should be the center of attention. Since I don' t believe Jesus was referring to, or the end of the system of things in our future.

<snip>

So we can ask ourselves what end did Jesus have in mind, the key to same in planted in the opening verse Matthew 24:1-4 Please read and see what you come up with if you care to do so. 

Larry, you're approaching this from a sola-scriptura Protestant perspective, wherein each person interprets scripture for themselves and everyone's different (even conflicting) interpretations are equally valid.  LDS aren't Protestants nor sola scriptura.  We believe that Christ's prophets help guide proper understanding of scripture (such as the JST in this example).  An LDS person can't "decide" scripture means something else when Christ's clarification has already been given. 

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Setting aside the JST, in the KJV, in Matt 24:3, the disciples ask what the sign of the end of the world will be.  Christ answers them.  IMO, you have to make contortions for verse 14 to refer to anything other than the end of the world.  But if you want to believe Christ wasn't answering the question asked, that's your choice.  But I'm going with the obvious:

v3: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

v4-5: Don't be deceived, folks are gonna come claiming to be me.

v6-8: There's gonna be war and other bad stuff.

v9: The world (aka wicked) will hate the followers of Christ

v10-12: wicked folk are gonna do wicked stuff

v13: But if you endure to the end, you'll be saved.

v14: and the gospel will be preachd in all the world; "and then shall the end come."

What end?  Why the end you asked about - the end of the world.

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On 11/25/2017 at 1:23 PM, zlarry123 said:

Since the New Testament is loaded with information concerning Jews and Gentiles,...

It helps to keep in mind that the terms Jews" and "Gentiles" take on various meanings through out the scriptures.  Depending upon the connotation and the tightness or looseness of the usage, one may simultaneously be both a Jew and a Gentile.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Zil you asked

Quote

"What end?  Why the end you asked about - the end of the world"

Good point that you understand where I am coming from, sometimes when we have a set paradigm it's hard to understand what the other person is saying. That is a great quality not many believers have, because they are so fixed on their own interpretation. BTW  I do respect the Mormon faith, especially now that I came in contact with Mormons.

So I'm going to present a paradigm shift in the following which will not be the last word on the subject. That because one word can change the context around that word, and set in motion a frenzy to take people out of their normal day of life. In our case the word is world, or is it, in Matthew 24:3 which I will get to later.

It has many Christian erroneously accepting as true the world, this planet coming to an end. Particularly Christians carrying  a  New Paper  in one hand and the bible in the other. For example when reading about wars they point to the following verse. Which they believe was meant for our generation.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, BUT THE END IS NOT YET. KJV

Showing them a News Paper articles about wars, and opening the bible ... than pointing to the verse like the one above saying the world is about to end ....It's prophesied in the bible. Give me a break!

However some believe within that same verse 3 in Olivet Discourse it speaks of  Christ coming soon according to scripture from the signs around us. Each time it was preached claiming the day it was always a no show. It has taken out the integrity of the word of God, and gave the none believer, atheist ammunition to shoot back at true believers.

Any thoughts so far

Larry

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"Did you miss the part where "the world" is not the same as "this planet" but rather "the wicked people"

If you will observe my point following, the reason the "wicked people" was added around  two thousand years later was because the expression world was used instead of the correct word "age." Which is closer to the original where the KJV was translated from.

"The King James Version (KJV), also known as the King James Bible (KJB) or simply the Authorized Version (AV), is an English translation of the Christian Bible for the Church of England begun in 1604 and completed in 1611"

The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, generally known as Strong's Concordance, is a Bible concordance, an index of every word in the King James Version (KJV), constructed under the direction of James Strong.

Here is the translation from Strong's of our word in question.

NT:165 aion (ahee-ohn'); from the same as NT:104; properly, an age; Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD? KJV

Compare and note the correction

Matthew 24:3 The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age (Mark 13:3-13; Luke 21:17-19) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the END OF THE AGE?"  NKJV

So my point is the word world is completely out of context with the great prophecy of the Olivet Discourse in the Word of God especially Matthew 24:1-35

Have you read, and familiar with the chapter in the bible? Check it out for yourself

https://www.bible.com/bible/114/MAT.24.nkjv

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4 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Have you read, and familiar with the chapter in the bible? Check it out for yourself

https://www.bible.com/bible/114/MAT.24.nkjv

Larry, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you're being offensive here by implying what the Christians you're talking to here haven't read the Bible.  Yes, of course we have.  

We obviously have different views on some theological issues, but there's no reason to accuse other people of having not reading the Bible.  

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Welcome, Larry.  I haven't been to this site in quite some time, but I wanted to reply to you.

On 11/25/2017 at 3:23 PM, zlarry123 said:

It seems when looking into the Mormon doctrine I find more questions then answers as time moves on. Which is a good thing...

Absolutely, it's a good thing.  Stick with it and you'll find answers.  Some answers come early on and some over time.  And it's a process.  Learning will undoubtedly lead to more questions, and if you pursue it those questions will lead to more learning, which will lead to questions,  etc. 

On 11/26/2017 at 12:11 PM, zlarry123 said:

A Mormon missionary doing the Lord's work once told me "we love question."

Yep!

 

3 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

Matthew 24:3 The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age (Mark 13:3-13; Luke 21:17-19) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the END OF THE AGE?"  NKJV

 

After condemning the wickedness in Jerusalem in chapter 23 and describing some of what awaits them, in 24 Jesus tells of the destruction of the temple.  And, then his disciples ask those questions in verse 3 ,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the END OF THE AGE?"

The disciples are asking multiple questions about things that will happen in multiple time periods.  They probably figured the second coming and the destruction of Jerusalem and temple would be relatively closer in time.  Jesus's reply includes some events that would happen anciently, some to happen later, and some were of dual nature (kind of like parts of Isaiah) that have fulfillment both anciently and in the last days.

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Greeting Rhoactes    Good stuff, it would be hard to get a grasp and understand chapter 24 of Matthew without comprehending first chapter 23 initially. Since 24 is a continuation of 23. And of course in the original manuscripts there were chapter breaks. 

Agreed chapter 23 is clear that Jesus make a judgment call on the Jewish Nation for killing their prophets sent by God, and would take part of  killing Him, "in the crucifixion", and His follower in the first century.

Quote

 

"Introduction and Timeline for Matthew 24–25Joseph Smith—Matthew

Chapters 24–25 of Matthew contain what is sometimes called the Olivet Discourse, so named because the Savior delivered it on the Mount of Olives. After spending much of the final week of His mortal ministry teaching at the temple, Jesus looked back on the temple and its surrounding structures and prophesied: “I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (Matthew 24:2Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:3). Peter, James, John, and Andrew later approached Jesus privately with two questions: (1) “When shall these things be?”—referring to the destruction of the temple; and (2) “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matthew 24:3; see also Mark 13:3–4). In Matthew 24and Joseph Smith—Matthew, you will study the Savior’s response to these two questions." 

 

Does the Mormon community consider the world coming to an end since in Paul's letter to the Ephesians he said the opposite.

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, WORLD WITHOUT END. AMEN. KJV

I would appreciate posting a link or two, to the timeline you  suggested in either the Book of Mormons or the D&C so I can check it out.

Thanks before time

Regards, Larry

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