THE OTHER SHEEP


zlarry123

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2 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Does the Mormon community consider the world coming to an end since in Paul's letter to the Ephesians he said the opposite.

"The world" being the domain of wicked men, yes.

"The world" being Christ's kingdom, no.

"The world" being the the big rock named Earth, no.

2 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Book of Mormons

FYI, it's the Book of Mormon.  No, "s".

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16 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

Greeting Rhoactes    Good stuff, it would be hard to get a grasp and understand chapter 24 of Matthew without comprehending first chapter 23 initially. Since 24 is a continuation of 23. And of course in the original manuscripts there were chapter breaks. 

Agreed chapter 23 is clear that Jesus make a judgment call on the Jewish Nation for killing their prophets sent by God, and would take part of  killing Him, "in the crucifixion", and His follower in the first century.

Does the Mormon community consider the world coming to an end since in Paul's letter to the Ephesians he said the opposite.

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, WORLD WITHOUT END. AMEN. KJV

I would appreciate posting a link or two, to the timeline you  suggested in either the Book of Mormons or the D&C so I can check it out.

Thanks before time

Regards, Larry

 

The world without end phrase in Ephesians 3:20 KJV is just a fancy phrase meaning forever.  Paul says give glory forever.

Will the world end?  Depending on what is meant by the world, yes.

In Mark 13:31 Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

2 Peter 3:10 talks about this also, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Later in Mark 13, in vs 49-50 Jesus says "49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,  50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."  See also Matthew 13:39-43.

In a sense, the world will end because the mortal world that we now live in will be drastically changed to something different.  When Christ comes and reigns during the millennium the world will be a paradise.  There's a list of 13 basic doctrinal fundamentals referred to as "The Articles of Faith" (See https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng).  Number 10 mentions the earth being "renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory". (Note the word "renewed".  The Earth before the Fall was different than it is now.)

 

16 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

I would appreciate posting a link or two, to the timeline you  suggested in either the Book of Mormons or the D&C so I can check it out.

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. 

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20 hours ago, Rhoades said:

 

The world without end phrase in Ephesians 3:20 KJV is just a fancy phrase meaning forever.  Paul says give glory forever.

Will the world end?  Depending on what is meant by the world, yes.

In Mark 13:31 Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

2 Peter 3:10 talks about this also, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Later in Mark 13, in vs 49-50 Jesus says "49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,  50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."  See also Matthew 13:39-43.

In a sense, the world will end because the mortal world that we now live in will be drastically changed to something different.  When Christ comes and reigns during the millennium the world will be a paradise.  There's a list of 13 basic doctrinal fundamentals referred to as "The Articles of Faith" (See https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng).  Number 10 mentions the earth being "renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory". (Note the word "renewed".  The Earth before the Fall was different than it is now.)

 

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. 

Thanks for the response

Matthew 24:3

3 The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age (Mark 13:3-13; Luke 21:17-19) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"  NKJV

My take is a different since all I only see using the bible is a witness to the coming of Christ, related to the destruction of the temple and the consummation of the Mosaic Policy all together in AD 70. "The end of that age"

"Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall" (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, "shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God's presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds."

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.  

28  Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."  
NKJV

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." NKJV

How did these men witness that event, since in the context of the Olivet Discourse was the destruction of the Jewish Temple that Jesus predicted would come about in their life time.

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3 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

 

the context of the Olivet Discourse was the destruction of the Jewish Temple that Jesus predicted would come about in their life time.

There was more than one question asked and the response covers more than one context.  The destruction of the temple, and second coming.

" A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, "shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God's presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds."

I wouldn't be surprised if God's presence and an angelic presence was manifested at that destruction.  However, there is still yet to come the big "Second Coming" event.  Just because something fulfills prophesy and foreshadows something else to come, doesn't mean that the something else won't come.  More than one fulfillment of prophesy is common.

"Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." NKJV  How did these men witness that event"

Good question.  They might have witnessed the event that happened at 70 AD (I'm not sure, and you've given me something new to study later.  I'm curious if there's any information on whether this high priest was still around at 70 AD which would make him old but it's possible).  However, whether or not they were still alive in 70 AD, they can still witness the other big event called the second coming.  Death is not the end of existence.  Consider Job who said "25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25-26)  If Job, who lived long  before Jesus's time can be resurrected and see Jesus stand at the latter day upon the earth, then it's possible for New Testament people to see it too.

Now, concerning Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."  This is talking about John.  Jesus told him he wouldn't face death until after the second coming.  In John 21:22-23 speaking to Peter about John, Jesus says, "22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

John stayed around long enough to see Jesus resurrected, and to see the destruction near 70 AD, and he's still around today, and he'll be around at the Second Coming.  The other Apostles interpreted whatever Jesus said as though John wouldn't die because a person can't normally live so long.  It seems you have interpreted it to mean it would happen sooner rather than later during a normal person's life span.  However, through modern revelation we've learned John is a "translated being" and his body has undergone a change to allow it to not die yet.  (More info on translated beings at https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/translated-beings?lang=eng)

 

Some other points about the Second Coming are:

1)  It will be a big event that everyone will see.  It won't be just the Jews.  Revelation 1:1 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."  In Matthew 24:30 it says "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  The event in 70 AD was big, but it isn't as big as this will be.  Everyone will see it.  When he comes it will be a worldwide appearance like the sun coming from east to west.  Matthew 24: 27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

2) The earth will undergo a drastic change.  Fire is often mentioned and elements melting (maybe something like nuclear fission?).  I mentioned 2 Peter 3:10 earlier. 

3) Christ will judge, and the wicked will be separated from the righteous at the second coming.  See Matthew 25:31-31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats".  There's also scripture about the wicked being burned and destroyed, see Malachi 4:1, and Malachi 3:1-5.  And, the ones mentioned in my earlier post in Mark 13 and Matthew 13.  This isn't a limited judgment or limited destruction like in 70AD.  This is bigger.  A part of this judgment and separation is that the righteous who have already died will be resurrected (if they haven't already been resurrected like those in Matthew 27:52-53), and the wicked will remain dead.  Revelation 20:4-5 "4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

4) The Second Coming will usher in the thousand year reign of Christ.  The thousand years was mentioned in Revelation 20.  In D&C 29:11 it says, "For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand."

5) A great apostacy would precede the Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ) "1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"  He's saying don't be troubled by when Christ will come, because there's going to be a falling away, or apostacy, first.  This has happened.

6) There will be a Restoration before the Second Coming.  Acts 3:20-21 "20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."  Jesus's appearance to Joseph Smith fulfilled this prophesy about Jesus coming back at the times of restitution (or restoration).  This appearance started the restoration, but it wasn't the big Second Coming event.  There certainly was no restitution of all things starting at 70AD.

7) Elijah would come before the Second Coming.  Malachi 4:5-6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."  This has already happened.  See D&C 110 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/110.13-16)

 

i could probably come up with more, but 7 seems like a good number to end on.

 

 

 

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Sorry I couldn't find your previous post, but I believe you will remember the question you asked me.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. NKJV

"This verse of Ecclesiastes 12 is part of the chapter’s conclusion. In its entirety, the verse reads, “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” Upon death, the human body decomposes into the dust from which it was created and the spirit in man goes back to God."

I believe the following when read will furnish a hold of where I'm going with this. And why the Apostle Paul in context was bringing out the spiritual side of things to a worldly thinking congregation. A reading of the first chapter of 1 Corinthians make that clear.

The spirit blown into Adam was the ability, if willing, to comprehend the things of God. That life given is life indeed, and the only life in truth that counts! The life of God!

BTW that separated us from the animal kingdom

Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the LIFE OF GOD through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: KJV

 

"The Bible teaches that this spirit in man imparts aspects of the human mind, including self-awareness, intellect, creativity, personality and temperament—everything that enables human accomplishment and knowledge short of true spiritual understanding"

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, BUT THE SPIRIT WHO IS FROM GOD, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, NOT IN WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHES BUT WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. NKJV

Can you see what I'm getting out with my  understanding at this time in relation to your question. 

BTW I noticed your last interesting post, I will get back to you, but feel free to add another one before hand. 

Regards, Larry

 

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Sorry I couldn't find your previous post, but I believe you will remember the question you asked me.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. NKJV

"This verse of Ecclesiastes 12 is part of the chapter’s conclusion. In its entirety, the verse reads, “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” Upon death, the human body decomposes into the dust from which it was created and the spirit in man goes back to God."

I believe the following when read will furnish a hold of where I'm going with this. And why the Apostle Paul in context was bringing out the spiritual side of things to a worldly thinking congregation. A reading of the first chapter of 1 Corinthians make that clear.

The spirit blown into Adam was the ability, if willing, to comprehend the things of God. That life given is life indeed, and the only life in truth that counts! The life of God!

BTW that separated us from the animal kingdom

Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the LIFE OF GOD through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: KJV

 

"The Bible teaches that this spirit in man imparts aspects of the human mind, including self-awareness, intellect, creativity, personality and temperament—everything that enables human accomplishment and knowledge short of true spiritual understanding"

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, BUT THE SPIRIT WHO IS FROM GOD, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, NOT IN WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHES BUT WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. NKJV

Can you see what I'm getting out with my  understanding at this time in relation to your question. 

BTW Rhoahes I noticed your last interesting post, I will get back to you, but feel free to add another one before hand. 

Regards, Larry

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Hi Rhoahes

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"The disciples are asking multiple questions about things that will happen in multiple time periods.  They probably figured the second coming and the destruction of Jerusalem and temple would be relatively closer in time.  Jesus's reply includes some events that would happen anciently, some to happen later, and some were of dual nature (kind of like parts of Isaiah) that have fulfillment both anciently and in the last days,"

The disciple didn't have to figure it out concerning His imminent coming since He said,

. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

 "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

"'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?'  '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.'  '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.'  ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

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10 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

Hi Rhoahes

The disciple didn't have to figure it out concerning His imminent coming since He said,

. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

 "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

"'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?'  '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.'  '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.'  ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

Do you have a question, or a point to make with these?  I don't understand the reason for this post.

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"The disciples are asking multiple questions about things that will happen in multiple time periods.  They probably figured the second coming and the destruction of Jerusalem and temple would be relatively closer in time.  Jesus's reply includes some events that would happen anciently, some to happen later, and some were of dual nature (kind of like parts of Isaiah) that have fulfillment both anciently and in the last days,"

Quote

Do you have a question, or a point to make with these?  I don't understand the reason for this post

WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE

I don' t accept as true the disciples asking numerous question regarding different moments in time.  I believe the inquire was interconnected to a single happening, the annihilation of the holy Jewish place of worship i.e..the Temple in AD 70.

I don't feel Jesus had in mind stuff that was going to come to pass, by dual meanings, thousands of years later in Matthew 24:3. The disciples were asking question about their concerns in their life. And Jesus gave them a response with signs and warning prior to that catastrophic episode consummating with,

Luke 21:20 The Destruction of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-28; Mark 13:14-23) "But WHEN YOU SEE Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. NKJV

To get out of town mainly for their safety, and so the Gospel Message can go forward to our salvation that they have put into words. The New Testament scriptures, our hope, about the Son of God

The scriptures I supplied about his imminent coming in their lifetime was clear I think in the last post you asked about..

 

The sacking of the temple brought about with no question in the Jewish mindset at that time the end of the age, Mosaic Policy I.e. the OC.

The focus was "When will these things be" Jesus made it clear in their lifetime.

 

Matthew 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near — AT THE DOORS!  

34 Assuredly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till all these things take place. NKJV

This generation was cleanly the generation of Jesus contemporary generation.

The chapter is loaded with pronouns. and time text of audience relevance. I do consider at this time from my understanding it all happened in the first century.

It was the establishment of the kingdom of God coming to power, since His coming is related to the kingdom of God mentioned in the NT.

Interested in your thoughts

Regards, Larry

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Jesus's reply includes some events that would happen anciently, some to happen later, and some were of dual nature (kind of like parts of Isaiah) that have fulfillment both anciently and in the last days."

This is also true according to mainstream Christianity because of the expressing last days. The dilemma is the  the expression  ends as history in the New Testament, since it was the last days of the Mosaic Economy. In Jesus contemporaries first century generation, not a future age group afar from ours.

Hebrews 1::1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 HATH IN THESE LAST DAYS SPOKEN unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; KJV

The author of Hebrews used the expression "these last days" that was over 2 thousand years ago fulfilled.

The context in Acts illustrate Peter providing verification they were living in the last day according to the prophet Joel.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel ;

17 And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: KJV

Since the last days mention is in connection with the kingdom of God and the coming of Christ, it has caused a no show by today's evangelist who predicted it. And has taken out the integrity of scriptures by giving the none believer ammunition to shoot back at us.

Regards, Larry

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1 minute ago, mordorbund said:

@zlarry123 Are you looking for a Mormon perspective on your questions? or are you looking for a forum to delineate your pet explanations of various scripture?

Quit asking nasty questions that point out uncomfortable truths, mordorbund. For shame.

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Are you looking for a Mormon perspective on your questions? or are you looking for a forum to delineate your pet explanations of various scripture?

Ha Ha  Sorry those scripture you irritation you!

I'm absolutely trying to appreciate the Mormons point of view on the word of God, perhaps you can defend it when considering those various scripture you rather mock then give an answer of the hope within if you care to do so.

Job 17:2 Are there not mockers with me? and doth not mine eye continue in their provocation? KJV

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

"Be willing to state those reasons on all proper occasions. No man ought to entertain opinions for which a good reason cannot be given; and every man ought to be willing to state the grounds of his hope on all proper occasions. A Christian should have such intelligent views of the truth of his religion, and such constant evidence in his own heart and life that he is a child of God, as to be able at any time to satisfy a candid inquirer that the Bible is a revelation from heaven, and that it is proper for him to cherish the hope of salvation". Barnes'

Your thoughts!

Regards, Larry

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1 hour ago, zlarry123 said:

Ha Ha  Sorry those scripture you irritation you!

I'm absolutely trying to appreciate the Mormons point of view on the word of God, perhaps you can defend it when considering those various scripture you rather mock then give an answer of the hope within if you care to do so.

Job 17:2 Are there not mockers with me? and doth not mine eye continue in their provocation? KJV

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

"Be willing to state those reasons on all proper occasions. No man ought to entertain opinions for which a good reason cannot be given; and every man ought to be willing to state the grounds of his hope on all proper occasions. A Christian should have such intelligent views of the truth of his religion, and such constant evidence in his own heart and life that he is a child of God, as to be able at any time to satisfy a candid inquirer that the Bible is a revelation from heaven, and that it is proper for him to cherish the hope of salvation". Barnes'

Your thoughts!

Regards, Larry

Although @mordorbund is able to speak for himself, the "scriptures" given aren't irritating him. I would go out and say you haven't irritated him at all. He asked you a sincere question regarding the desire you mentioned to understand Mormon perspective in the beginning of your posts, and the contradiction of how you are responding to answers provided. It wasn't a mock, it was an inquiry.

Sadly though, your response appears to confirm the latter portion of his question, rather than the first portion.

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1 hour ago, zlarry123 said:

I'm absolutely trying to appreciate the Mormons point of view on the word of God, perhaps you can defend it

What makes you think this is an appropriate forum to attack LDS doctrine and expect a defense of it? Anti-Mormon nonsense is unwelcome anywhere on this site.

FYI, there is no more respected poster on this forum than mordorbund, and no one less likely to get all huffy. You are demonstrating your ignorance in attacking one of the least attack-worthy individuals on this site.

Now me, on the other hand...

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2 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

I'm absolutely trying to appreciate the Mormons point of view on the word of God, perhaps you can defend it when considering those various scripture you rather mock then give an answer of the hope within if you care to do so.

My post was not intended to mock. Neither is this one, so I hope you understand it with the same intent in which it is written.

Since you are trying to appreciate the Mormons point of view on 1) Who are the "other sheep" Jesus spoke of, and 2) The seeming conflict between Jesus announcing His return in glory at the destruction of Jerusalem and the lack of His return in glory at the destruction of Jerusalem, can you do something so I can see how well you understand the Mormon point of view? Can you A) restate the Mormon response to these questions, B) with the scriptures or texts used to derive that response?

To be clear, I'm looking for 4 things:

1A) As a Mormon, who do I think the "other sheep" are that Jesus mentioned?

1B) Why do I think that (supporting scriptures, texts, arguments, etc)?

2A) As a Mormon, how do I explain the unfulfilled prophesy of Matthew 24 that Jesus would return in glory at the destruction of Jerusalem?

2B) Why do I think that (supporting scriptures, texts, arguments, etc)?

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My post was not intended to mock. Neither is this one, so I hope you understand it with the same intent in which it is written.

Quote

 

Since you are trying to appreciate the Mormons point of view on 1) Who are the "other sheep" Jesus spoke of, and 2) The seeming conflict between Jesus announcing His return in glory at the destruction of Jerusalem and the lack of His return in glory at the destruction of Jerusalem, can you do something so I can see how well you understand the Mormon point of view? Can you A) restate the Mormon response to these questions, B) with the scriptures or texts used to derive that response?

To be clear, I'm looking for 4 things:

1A) As a Mormon, who do I think the "other sheep" are that Jesus mentioned?

1B) Why do I think that (supporting scriptures, texts, arguments, etc)?

2A) As a Mormon, how do I explain the unfulfilled prophesy of Matthew 24 that Jesus would return in glory at the destruction of Jerusalem?

2B) Why do I think that (supporting scriptures, texts, arguments, etc)?

 

I'm starting to get the general idea of the Mormon view, both here and in my home since I'm currently studying with missionaries in my Mobil abode in the desert of California. This is the reason I entered this forum.

There was no big deal intended on my comment in my last post. It was good to see some of your brothers and sister coming to your defense. Note I said Ha ha! To lighten the load! :)

When the missionaries come over the house I have my computer linked to the Book of Mormons, D&C and of course many bible translation. I'm only a student of  God's word, a servant. As of now I don't see any group as specially the chosen of God, since there are some 46000 denomination believing the same.

I see it as an individual bases in an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ the only begotten Son and His dad. Where ever they are, only God know.

Hopefully in the future once I get a grip on the Mormon doctrine we could have a enhanced exchange. I'm not  looking for socializing at the time, thought I feel there is nothing wrong with it.  My focus is on the Word of God, and how it relates to other people, and how they respond to scripture.

I know the Mormons believe we at one time were angel's who have come to earth to make choices on what level in heaven we will eventually enter. 1 Cor,.15 Many mansions, and Paul entering the third heaven to conclude there are 3 different levels.

The other sheep are not Gentile, but a group of Israelite's I think from Babylon who entered the America's

Perhaps we can share our views on Matthew 24 in a civil way.:) Bottom line is that we was both understand what the other believes. Fair enough? 

Regards, Larry

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19 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

I'm starting to get the general idea of the Mormon view, both here and in my home since I'm currently studying with missionaries in my Mobil abode in the desert of California. This is the reason I entered this forum.

There was no big deal intended on my comment in my last post. It was good to see some of your brothers and sister coming to your defense. Note I said Ha ha! To lighten the load! :)

I agree. It was very kind of them.

19 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

When the missionaries come over the house I have my computer linked to the Book of Mormons, D&C and of course many bible translation. I'm only a student of  God's word, a servant. As of now I don't see any group as specially the chosen of God, since there are some 46000 denomination believing the same.

I see it as an individual bases in an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ the only begotten Son and His dad. Where ever they are, only God know.

Hopefully in the future once I get a grip on the Mormon doctrine we could have a enhanced exchange. I'm not  looking for socializing at the time, thought I feel there is nothing wrong with it.  My focus is on the Word of God, and how it relates to other people, and how they respond to scripture.

That's lovely, but let's stay on topic. It would be a shame if you posted to get our perspective on certain scriptures and we neglected to answer satisfactorily because we spent the entire time talking about what you believe and not what we believe.

19 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

I know the Mormons believe we at one time were angel's who have come to earth to make choices on what level in heaven we will eventually enter. 1 Cor,.15 Many mansions, and Paul entering the third heaven to conclude there are 3 different levels.

Again, let's make sure you understand what we believe and why on the original topic(s) before we move on to a new one.

19 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

The other sheep are not Gentile, but a group of Israelite's I think from Babylon who entered the America's

Perhaps we can share our views on Matthew 24 in a civil way.:) Bottom line is that we was both understand what the other believes. Fair enough? 

Regards, Larry

I'm not sure that we understand what the other believes. You've answered 1A, but ignored 1B. I'm on board with discussing Matthew 24 civilly, but I'm not sure that you understand the why behind the Mormon position. Once again:

1B. Why do Mormons think the other sheep are not Gentiles, but a group of Israelites (using scripture, text, or arguments*)?

2A. How do Mormons explain the unfulfilled prophesy of Matthew 24?

2B. Why do Mormons believe that (using scripture, text, or arguments*)?

 

* Hint: previous posters have already provided this

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Why do Mormons think the other sheep are not Gentiles, but a group of

Israelites (using scripture, text, or arguments

Yes isn't it lovely!

Because Mormons see the Book of Mormons and D&C, and the president of the Mormon church no different then those who walked with Christ as inspired by God, and contain that information. Information I'm sure you will provide instead of one sentence comments.

Because the framework of Matthew is not completely interconnected with the destruction of the temple, and that the coming of Christ mentioned in Matthew 24:3 is in our future as does main stream Christianity believe. And the word "world", the same in the KJV Joseph Smith read, and why he came to those conclusion, is not translated as  "age" which it should be. The Mormons are not aware I believe with the time indicators speaking of same in the NT. My thoughts!

As I understand it the Mormon's place double meaning, shadows, on text as was used in the OT revealed in the NT.

I will leave it up to you to give your take that a baby can understand as to the Mormon view on our verses. So I can see how the Book of Mormons is entwined with the bible as I heard mentioned. 

Following will be the scriptural evidence you asked for subsequent to your posting, unless you want to change the stream of conversation.

Do not take this as an attack on the Mormon church, we both believe on the atonement of Christ which makes us brothers.

Your up ..... thanks for reading

Larry

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14 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Why do Mormons think the other sheep are not Gentiles, but a group of Israelites (using scripture, text, or arguments

Because Christ Himself said so (speaking from the Mormon PoV)

14 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Because Mormons see the Book of Mormons and D&C, and the president of the Mormon church no different then those who walked with Christ as inspired by God, and contain that information. 

Yep.

14 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Information I'm sure you will provide instead of one sentence comments.

-- Already did---

On 11/26/2017 at 8:37 AM, Jane_Doe said:

 The Mormon answer is "because Himself Christ said so".  His exact words to the Nephi people were "24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me."  (emphasis mine).  

@zil posted the larger context and linked the entire chapter.

 

 

18 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Because the framework of Matthew is not completely interconnected with the destruction of the temple, and that the coming of Christ mentioned in Matthew 24:3 is in our future as does main stream Christianity believe. And the word "world", the same in the KJV Joseph Smith read, and why he came to those conclusion, is not translated as  "age" which it should be. The Mormons are not aware I believe with the time indicators speaking of same in the NT. My thoughts!

As I understand it the Mormon's place double meaning, shadows, on text as was used in the OT revealed in the NT.

Larry, you're welcome to share your thoughts and beliefs here, as is everyone.  But you're not going to get any LDS person to change their beliefs on based upon your discussion here.  From the LDS perspective: Christ said the answer, and what Larry says doesn't trump what Christ said (no offense).  Again, you're welcome to share you beliefs, but they don't hold any convincing power for an LDS person.

 

 

 

 

 

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So the other sheep were actually the OTHER other sheep.  The Gentiles were just sheep.  But the true sheep were the House of Israel.  Since the Lehites were of the House of Israel, they were THE other sheep of the True sheep.  But the OTHER other sheep were other sheep than THE other sheep.

Is that all clear now?

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LARRY, YOU'RE WELCOME TO SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS AND BELIEFS HERE, AS IS EVERYONE.  BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANY LDS PERSON TO CHANGE THEIR BELIEFS ON BASED UPON YOUR DISCUSSION HERE.  FROM THE LDS PERSPECTIVE: CHRIST SAID THE ANSWER, AND WHAT LARRY SAYS DOESN'T TRUMP WHAT CHRIST SAID (NO OFFENSE).  AGAIN, YOU'RE WELCOME TO SHARE YOU BELIEFS, BUT THEY DON'T HOLD ANY CONVINCING POWER FOR AN LDS PERSON.

No offence taken Jane, and thanks for the invitation to share my trust on scripture, and find out  if the power of God really resides in the Mormon denomination. Hopefully there will be others who love the WORD and defend its perspective.

I'm curious if you speak for all members here or did you figure it out for yourself that "WHAT LARRY SAYS DOESN'T TRUMP WHAT CHRIST SAID" (NO OFFENSE).  

I believe you inescapable intended to say, it's not what Christ said, but what He meant when He said it in the context, power, and spirit of inspiration by our heaven Father the only true God. John 17:3  Would you agree?

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2 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

I'm curious if you speak for all members here or did you figure it out for yourself that "WHAT LARRY SAYS DOESN'T TRUMP WHAT CHRIST SAID" (NO OFFENSE).

You will find that Mormons are:

1) Quite familiar with scripture and the meanings attributed to it by the Church - we are not a loose affiliation of congregations - we are very much one in our teaching and understanding, practices and policies (worldwide - I could walk into any Mormon church building and find the same Sunday meetings as I find in my home ward).

2) Our doctrine is such that we are firm in our interpretations of scripture, and our firmness comes from prophets and the Holy Ghost, not from argument, reasoning, or even personal interpretation (except as such adds compatibly to what the prophets teach).

3) We are not only used to people trying to convince us we've got it wrong, we're inured to it - it's old hat.  If someone is actually seeking mutual understanding and is able to discuss our beliefs from a perspective of putting aside their disagreement and truly discussing what we believe; followed by us trying to do the same for them - that's welcome.  But if someone is hoping to convince us we've got it wrong and they've got it right, so we should listen and change our view away from what the Church teaches and toward what they're saying - well, that someone is gonna be disappointed.

This is true of the vast majority of active, practicing Mormons.  (And from my observation, of all the practicing Mormons who participate on this site.)

Edited by zil
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16 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

Why do Mormons think the other sheep are not Gentiles, but a group of

Israelites (using scripture, text, or arguments

Yes isn't it lovely!

By the way, you can quote another person's posts by clicking the 

 + Quote

link at the bottom of their post. It makes it easier to follow along with what are your words and what your responding to. If you are only responding to a small portion of the original post, you can highlight the sentences your interest in and click on the little "Quote this" popup.

16 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

Because Mormons see the Book of Mormons and D&C, and the president of the Mormon church no different then those who walked with Christ as inspired by God, and contain that information. Information I'm sure you will provide instead of one sentence comments.

[ omitting the Matthew reference for now for the sake of focus - mordorbund]

I will leave it up to you to give your take that a baby can understand as to the Mormon view on our verses. So I can see how the Book of Mormons is entwined with the bible as I heard mentioned. 

Following will be the scriptural evidence you asked for subsequent to your posting, unless you want to change the stream of conversation.

Do not take this as an attack on the Mormon church, we both believe on the atonement of Christ which makes us brothers.

Your up ..... thanks for reading

Larry

As I mentioned in the hint above, the information has already been provided. This thread is only two pages long. Would you mind reviewing the responses to find the sources for the Mormon claim that the other sheep are from the house of Israel and not the Gentiles? Once you've done so, you can come back and post the sources and how they support the Mormon perspective.

 

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FTR, I have assumed that @zlarry123 is referring to 3 Nephi 15:21-23, as quoted in @zil's initial response. zlarry doesn't like this response, or else he didn't bother reading his responses (as @mordorbund seems to suspect).

On 11/25/2017 at 11:02 PM, zlarry123 said:

When Jesus gave the analogy concerning the "other sheep"  I think he had the Gentiles in mind.

Then you clearly do not believe in the Book of Mormon account. But your lack of belief is no sort of proof, only evidence of your own state of faithlessness.

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