Would You? Abraham/Isaac, Nephi/Laban, Saul/Amelikites

[Rob Osborn]

25 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You aren't alone at all. I'm at a complete loss for words over this thread. It scares me a little. If these people are serious than it scares me a lot. I sort of want to call the cops and warn them that there are still people out there that apparently believe it's okay to kill in the name of God. I'm just blown away by it. 

Maybe/hopefully I'm missing something and those who are much smarter than me can enlighten me.  

God kills people, or allows them to be killed all the time. Its about justification. Do you think it was wrong for Nephi to kill Laban?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

My answer is no, I will not listen to a voice in my head that tells me to take the life of another, we have a word for those people they are murders.

I would fail the test, but I'm no Nephi, or Abraham the Lord would have to choose another

I dont call nephi killing Laban "murder". Murder is the "unlawful" act of killing another. It has to deal with morals, ethics and justification. Gods laws and commands trumps all other laws of humans. In Gods eyes Nephi didntmurder but rather killed to preserve lives of others. He was morally and ethically correct in that the justification for the "why" was correct and understood.

[zil]

27 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i could never be sure

It seems to me this is the primary dividing line in the thread.  There are some who take the OP and ask, how could I ever be sure that it was really God asking me to do this thing?  They answer that from their experience in life thus far, they personally could not be sure, and therefore would not do it.

On the other side of the aisle are those who start from the assumption, "If I were sure God was asking me to do this, would I?"  For these people, it's not a question of "how can I be sure it was God?" - these people are assuming we've established certainty.  Therefore the question is whether they could obey God in some extreme.

This is why I said the real test isn't whether you will kill once you are certain God is telling you to do so.  No, the real test is if you will do [X] once you are certain God is telling you to, where [X] is something you don't want to do - like accept a call to be the bishop, or do your visiting teaching, or go on a mission, or pay tithing, or whatever.  The principle is the same, no matter what [X] is, and [X] will be very different from person to person.  The older I get, the more certain I am that all of us have an [X] that it will nearly destroy us to do, and that at some point, in this life or the next, we will be called on to do [X].

[Guest MormonGator]

17 minutes ago, zil said:

It seems to me this is the primary dividing line in the thread. 

The real point of this thread is to remind me not to go home teaching with a guy who thinks there is even a 1% chance that God would command him to suddenly play bumper cars while going 90 mph on the freeway. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by MormonGator

[Anddenex]

46 minutes ago, zil said:

It seems to me this is the primary dividing line in the thread.  There are some who take the OP and ask, how could I ever be sure that it was really God asking me to do this thing?  They answer that from their experience in life thus far, they personally could not be sure, and therefore would not do it.

On the other side of the aisle are those who start from the assumption, "If I were sure God was asking me to do this, would I?"  For these people, it's not a question of "how can I be sure it was God?" - these people are assuming we've established certainty.  Therefore the question is whether they could obey God in some extreme.

This is why I said the real test isn't whether you will kill once you are certain God is telling you to do so.  No, the real test is if you will do [X] once you are certain God is telling you to, where [X] is something you don't want to do - like accept a call to be the bishop, or do your visiting teaching, or go on a mission, or pay tithing, or whatever.  The principle is the same, no matter what [X] is, and [X] will be very different from person to person.  The older I get, the more certain I am that all of us have an [X] that it will nearly destroy us to do, and that at some point, in this life or the next, we will be called on to do [X].

Perfectly said zil. Perfectly said.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

The real point of this thread is to remind me not to go home teaching with a guy who thinks there is even a 1% chance that God would command him to suddenly play bumper cars while going 90 mph on the freeway. 

As I was reminded by a recent mormonhub article, the Church needs more serial killers.

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

As I was reminded by a recent mormonhub article, the Church needs more serial killers.

@mirkwood, please pay attention to this thread. If the wives or children of any of these guys go missing, we're giving you a head start here! 

[mirkwood]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:50 PM, lostinwater said:

 Would i take the life of another when my blood was 'cold'.

 

What do you mean when you say "cold?"

[mirkwood]

I think we need to differentiate between kill and murder.  They are not the same thing.

An act of self defense does not necessarily require a prompting from God to happen. 

 

 

 

[lostinwater]

3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

What do you mean when you say "cold?"

Thanks.  i guess i mean premeditation.  Deciding, when your blood/anger is not 'hot', to murder someone, and then doing it.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

An act of self defense does not necessarily require a prompting from God to happen.

True; although an act of self-defense can and does occur through promptings from God (which doesn't mean a person is dead at the end of the act, but they may need hospitalization).

This is one good example from General Conference, "His eyes and disarming smile gave me the impression that he was harmless, so I quickly left him and started to move toward the table. The suspect was now behind me. At that instant, I had the distinct, powerful impression come into my mind: ‘Beware of the evil behind the smiling eyes.’

“I immediately turned back toward the suspect. His hand was in his large front pocket. Instinctively I grabbed his hand and pulled it from his pocket. Only then did I see, clutched in his hand, the semiautomatic pistol ready to fire. A flurry of activity followed, and I disarmed the man..."

"Later, in another case, the drug dealer was convicted of murder and boasted that he would have also killed my friend had he not turned around at that very moment." (Source)

In this case, the impression from God spared this man's life. In other cases I know of, a woman's life was spared. God does prompt people to act in self-defense either for themselves or for their neighbor.

Obedience to God is the first law of heaven (but I am not sharing something you don't already know).

Edited November 28, 2017 by Anddenex

[lostinwater]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

God kills people, or allows them to be killed all the time. Its about justification. Do you think it was wrong for Nephi to kill Laban?

So this is not meant to incite argument.  But does this mean that when we hear of one person killing another person, we first need to query the person who killed to see if it was legitimately commanded by God before we make up our minds as to whether or not it was bad?

Maybe it does - honestly, though, the whole thing just feels sick.  

Full disclosure, i have no acceptable answers to the questions i am asking.  Honestly, it's things like these that made me stop reading/skip large sections of the Old Testament - they confuse my conscience so much, maybe it is better for me to ignore them for now.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Maybe it does - honestly, though, the whole thing just feels sick.  

It is sick. Creepy too. 

[askandanswer]

I'm not going to wait for any divine command to go gator shooting. Sadly my weapon doesn't have the range to reach Florida. 

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm not going to wait for any divine command to go gator shooting. Sadly my weapon doesn't have the range to reach Florida. 

Given that Australia is famous for strict gun laws, do you even know how to shoot a gun?  

[askandanswer]

Haven't shot a gun since I was a teen ager. but for a wimply old Florida gator, a gun wouldn't be needed. Probably a firm blow to the back of the head with a piece of wet lettuce would suffice.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

Haven't shot a gun since I was a teen ager. but for a wimply old Florida gator, a gun wouldn't be needed. Probably a firm blow to the back of the head with a piece of wet lettuce would suffice.

Aren't you older than me? I'm only in my late 30's. 

[NeuroTypical]

12 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm not going to wait for any divine command to go gator shooting. Sadly my weapon doesn't have the range to reach Florida. 

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

[askandanswer]

the wet lettuce, when properly used, works just as well on younger gators

[zil]

2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

So this is not meant to incite argument.  But does this mean that when we hear of one person killing another person, we first need to query the person who killed to see if it was legitimately commanded by God before we make up our minds as to whether or not it was bad?

Maybe it does - honestly, though, the whole thing just feels sick.  

Full disclosure, i have no acceptable answers to the questions i am asking.  Honestly, it's things like these that made me stop reading/skip large sections of the Old Testament - they confuse my conscience so much, maybe it is better for me to ignore them for now.

I cannot think of a case in this dispensation which reminds me of the incidents described in the OP.  So I'm not sure what you're worried about.  We are not living in the same time, culture, tradition, governmental system, or pretty much anything else as the Old Testament.  You cannot take the Old Testament events and say, "What if this exact thing happened in modern America?" - it won't.  The Lord deals with us as we are, not as someone else once was.  While eternal principles are true (such as the expectation that we will obey God), our culture, government, knowledge, etc. all impact the way in which we live the gospel.

We aren't the children of Israel who have to drive out exceedingly wicked inhabitants to inherit the land promised to Abraham.  We aren't dealing with an evil relative who has denied us access to the scriptures (even if we had such an evil relative, we can just go get our own copy now).

You're worrying yourself over something you weren't a part of and will never be a part of and can never come close to understanding (unless you spend ages studying the cultures and traditions of people who lived in the middle east / north Africa during Old Testament times).  That's a pointless worry.  When you read the OT (if you decide to again), leave behind the modern American sensibilities and recognize you are a stranger in that world and you your sensibilities just don't apply there and then - stop worrying about their cultural differences and look for what the Lord would teach you.  Honestly, when I read the OT, I see the generosity, love, and patience of God.

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

So this is not meant to incite argument.  But does this mean that when we hear of one person killing another person, we first need to query the person who killed to see if it was legitimately commanded by God before we make up our minds as to whether or not it was bad?

Maybe it does - honestly, though, the whole thing just feels sick.  

Full disclosure, i have no acceptable answers to the questions i am asking.  Honestly, it's things like these that made me stop reading/skip large sections of the Old Testament - they confuse my conscience so much, maybe it is better for me to ignore them for now.

I think a lot of people are oblivious to the fact that God destroys his enemies all the time. Its about whats best for society. If one person can be removed in order to save a nation God will see fit to deliver that soul up unto death.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 I'm only in my late 30's. 

Years or months?

[lostinwater]

12 hours ago, zil said:

I cannot think of a case in this dispensation which reminds me of the incidents described in the OP.  So I'm not sure what you're worried about.  We are not living in the same time, culture, tradition, governmental system, or pretty much anything else as the Old Testament.  You cannot take the Old Testament events and say, "What if this exact thing happened in modern America?" - it won't.  The Lord deals with us as we are, not as someone else once was.  While eternal principles are true (such as the expectation that we will obey God), our culture, government, knowledge, etc. all impact the way in which we live the gospel.

We aren't the children of Israel who have to drive out exceedingly wicked inhabitants to inherit the land promised to Abraham.  We aren't dealing with an evil relative who has denied us access to the scriptures (even if we had such an evil relative, we can just go get our own copy now).

You're worrying yourself over something you weren't a part of and will never be a part of and can never come close to understanding (unless you spend ages studying the cultures and traditions of people who lived in the middle east / north Africa during Old Testament times).  That's a pointless worry.  When you read the OT (if you decide to again), leave behind the modern American sensibilities and recognize you are a stranger in that world and you your sensibilities just don't apply there and then - stop worrying about their cultural differences and look for what the Lord would teach you.  Honestly, when I read the OT, I see the generosity, love, and patience of God.

Thank-you.  Good points.  i'd like to think that some things that happened in the OT are wrong in a way that transcend cultures over time.  i can't call the deliberate ending of the lives of children anything else - i just can't.

Who knows, i guess (assuming that some of the things that happened in the OT are for the best)  God could be a darned if He does, darned if He doesn't.  For example, if God commanded someone to kill the Nazi Party leadership in 1935, it would have been a mini genocide whose saving positive consequences were never known, but then if He doesn't, He didn't prevent the genocide of the Jews.

Anyways, your suggestion that i should not throw the baby out with the bath water is valid, and i appreciate the reminder.

[zil]

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

i can't call the deliberate ending of the lives of children anything else - i just can't.

Because you weren't there, you don't know what the lives of those children would have been like, and you have lost track of both the eternal nature of mankind and the promises made regarding children who die before the age of accountability.  What's more, I'm not sure we can be completely confident that we have full and accurate records of who said and did what back then.  Let God and the people who were there worry about the right and wrong of it.  You worry about what lesson you might learn from it - like not to ripen in iniquity....

Edited November 29, 2017 by zil

[mordorbund]

15 hours ago, lostinwater said:

So this is not meant to incite argument.  But does this mean that when we hear of one person killing another person, we first need to query the person who killed to see if it was legitimately commanded by God before we make up our minds as to whether or not it was bad?

Maybe it does - honestly, though, the whole thing just feels sick.  

Don't we already do this as a society? If a person is found to be killed by another person, we ask followup questions of the person who did the killing to see if lines up with our sensibilities.

Oh he was trying to rape you? then killing is fine

Oh he was knocking on your door at 3AM when you were trying to sleep? you're a monster

Oh she was trying to kill you first? then killing is fine

Oh she was going to reveal your secret crush? monster