Would You? Abraham/Isaac, Nephi/Laban, Saul/Amelikites

[Rob Osborn]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Once again, I intend to complicate things.  I will state unequivocally that G-d does not bring about death – ever.  We may interpret certain principles like “agency” and think to understand that G-d allows death but it is 100% a false teaching.  I am quite sure that Satan is behind any thought that in any way insinuates that G-d is the cause of any death.

The cause of death is sin.  There is no other cause - and there is no sin or evil in G-d or his presents.  There is nothing else that can bring about or cause death.  The truth is that we mortals survive from one second to the next by the grace of G-d that postpones our death and allows us temporary breath.  Should G-d withdraw his undeserved protection of us - we perish in death that very moment.  Not because he has withdrawn but because of our agency to choose to experience a fallen and sinful state.  There is only one innocent death – but even the death of Christ was caused by sin (mortal man’s sins).

G-d is the giver of life – there is no other source.  I had a short discussion on another thread about inalienable rights – life is not a right it is a gift.  Never-the-less, all will die.  When we chose to pursue knowledge of good and evil – death and the experience of death is the knowledge of evil.  Birth and the atonement and resurrection to life is the knowledge of good.  

As long as we define life and death by mortality we will never understand justice and we will never comprehend an eternal G-d.

 

The Traveler

Well, I disagree somewhat. Even though death is the result of sin God can and in fact does destroy (kill) the wicked.

[zil]

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I will state unequivocally that G-d does not bring about death – ever.

So how do you understand 3 Nephi 9?

Some highlights (note, I know they were destroyed because of their wickedness, and if that's your interpretation - simply that if they hadn't been wicked, they wouldn't have been destroyed - then nevermind, I comprehend and agree; but otherwise, this sure looks to me like Christ is saying he deliberated brought about deaths of a lot of people):

Quote

In the darkness, the voice of Christ proclaims the destruction of many people and cities for their wickedness

Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof

Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned

Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof

And then a big long list of other cities that were burned, sunk in the sea, or covered with earth - some of them pretty, um, strongly worded, condemning the dead.

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Again, to over complicate things - It is my impression that the Old Testament is the most misunderstood of all scripture.  I do not believe that the Old Testament is a historically accurate record of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the covenants established in the pre-existence, the war in heaven – the fall and mortal experience of man and the restoration of blessings (eternal life).  In short it is not a historical account of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the plan of salvation.

Likewise, the Book of Mormon is not a historical document of the Nephits and Laminites but rather a type and shadow of the fullness of the gospel of Christ.

 

The Traveler

Well, it is still nevertheless historical.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

Once again, I intend to complicate things.  I will state unequivocally that G-d does not bring about death – ever.  We may interpret certain principles like “agency” and think to understand that G-d allows death but it is 100% a false teaching.  I am quite sure that Satan is behind any thought that in any way insinuates that G-d is the cause of any death.

The cause of death is sin.  There is no other cause - and there is no sin or evil in G-d or his presents.  There is nothing else that can bring about or cause death.  The truth is that we mortals survive from one second to the next by the grace of G-d that postpones our death and allows us temporary breath.  Should G-d withdraw his undeserved protection of us - we perish in death that very moment.  Not because he has withdrawn but because of our agency to choose to experience a fallen and sinful state.  There is only one innocent death – but even the death of Christ was caused by sin (mortal man’s sins).

G-d is the giver of life – there is no other source.  I had a short discussion on another thread about inalienable rights – life is not a right it is a gift.  Never-the-less, all will die.  When we chose to pursue knowledge of good and evil – death and the experience of death is the knowledge of evil.  Birth and the atonement and resurrection to life is the knowledge of good.  

As long as we define life and death by mortality we will never understand justice and we will never comprehend an eternal G-d.

 

The Traveler

Scripture appears to disagree with you. True though, sin is the reason, the condition, that God does indeed bring about the death of his children.

How then do you interpret the death of all the Egyptian firstborn sons? Sure, they sinned with not obeying, but it wasn't "sin" that struck the final blow. "And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the Lord slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt," The "lord slew."

Balaam who disobeyed a direct command. Who sent the angel with a sword to slay him?

The flood, was not cause by sin, the flood was a result of their sin by which God sent.

If "sin" is the cause of death, why are there so many people alive who are enjoying greatly the great and spacious building -- sinning?

Unrepented sin, will cause spiritual death, but I don't see any evidence from scripture that temporal death is caused by "sin."

How then do you interpret the following already given, "Pretty clear words here, "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error." God SMOTE him.

Now I am wondering with this thought if someone were to kill a "sinner", then they really didn't kill them -- their sin killed them? This is how I am understanding your statement. Because when the scriptures are clear regarding who killed who, and we are saying, he never did it was their sin? Not sure how that is true, but clearly false.

[Alex]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Again, to over complicate things - It is my impression that the Old Testament is the most misunderstood of all scripture.  I do not believe that the Old Testament is a historically accurate record of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the covenants established in the pre-existence, the war in heaven – the fall and mortal experience of man and the restoration of blessings (eternal life).  In short it is not a historical account of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the plan of salvation.

Likewise, the Book of Mormon is not a historical document of the Nephits and Laminites but rather a type and shadow of the fullness of the gospel of Christ.

 

The Traveler

Oh no. Traveler.

With the exception of naming satan as a serpent (a metaphorical serpent) instead of a spirit being, so much is literal in the Old Testament. If you think about the chrono order of the old testament the next two records are the flood and the tower, which are both real, yet along with Adam and Eve and the creation, they are the most disputed accounts of the entire old testament by supposed scholars:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/the-flood-and-the-tower-of-babel?lang=eng

Then we come to Abraham and on to Jacob (Israel) and then down to Moses and that's where the deaths of 'innocents' really plays out. I have no problem with innocent people being taken by the Lord if it makes way for the bigger plan and I put it to you that most of the people on the face of the earth in Noah's time were guilty of ignorance- they weren't working against the plan, they just didn't want to know.

Q- Is that sin?

A- Yes it is. But the removal of the ignorant through death is something many in this era can't stomach.

I totally get what you are saying about sin being the reason God deals out death however in the Old Testament, God takes mortal lives for minor sins or for the fact that some innocent people are merely in the way of the plan moving forward. Plenty of GOOD PEOPLE (by our standards today) die by the swords of Israel, under the command of prophets and so too, plenty die by miracles of God.

Onto Ananias and Saphira in the new testament. If you read the commentary on wikipedia, the account of their deaths really upsets some bible scholars. I imagine it does so because once again, from our tolerant perspective, the sin of Ananias and his wife isn't so bad as to warrant death.

 

Hmm, I put it to you Traveler that your idea of sin warranting death is based on your modern ideas of crime and justice. That is to say 'the punishment fits the crime' and we in our modern civilized state only give the chair/noose etc to those who murder, which is just according to us.

But when it comes to God's plan, God decides when and where to punish the sinner.

# God may take a life for no other reason than that good person being in the way of the plan- that applies to all, including the prophets of old and even today as well. I recall one latter day prophet stating  "...over my dead body..." with regards to his opposition to a repeatedly called for policy change, before he was taken from the earth 2 years later.

 

 

 

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I disagree somewhat. Even though death is the result of sin God can and in fact does destroy (kill) the wicked.

 

Absolutely false – the wicked destroy themselves.   What are you thinking???????  Do you not believe in agency?????  Do you have zero concept of free will????  G-d is not the destroyer – Satan is.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Absolutely false – the wicked destroy themselves.   What are you thinking???????  Do you not believe in agency?????  Do you have zero concept of free will????  G-d is not the destroyer – Satan is.

 

The Traveler

I'm with you completely @Traveler but this is one of the those threads where the two camps will have to agree to disagree and move on. 

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, zil said:

So how do you understand 3 Nephi 9?

Some highlights (note, I know they were destroyed because of their wickedness, and if that's your interpretation - simply that if they hadn't been wicked, they wouldn't have been destroyed - then nevermind, I comprehend and agree; but otherwise, this sure looks to me like Christ is saying he deliberated brought about deaths of a lot of people):

And then a big long list of other cities that were burned, sunk in the sea, or covered with earth - some of them pretty, um, strongly worded, condemning the dead.

It would require much more discussion – but the short answer is that G-d is the proctor of covenant not the destroyer or the bringer covenant maledictions.   If wickedness was not chosen over life the cities and their inhabitants would have remained.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Oh no. Traveler.

With the exception of naming satan as a serpent (a metaphorical serpent) instead of a spirit being, so much is literal in the Old Testament. If you think about the chrono order of the old testament the next two records are the flood and the tower, which are both real, yet along with Adam and Eve and the creation, they are the most disputed accounts of the entire old testament by supposed scholars:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/the-flood-and-the-tower-of-babel?lang=eng

Then we come to Abraham and on to Jacob (Israel) and then down to Moses and that's where the deaths of 'innocents' really plays out. I have no problem with innocent people being taken by the Lord if it makes way for the bigger plan and I put it to you that most of the people on the face of the earth in Noah's time were guilty of ignorance- they weren't working against the plan, they just didn't want to know.

Q- Is that sin?

A- Yes it is. But the removal of the ignorant through death is something many in this era can't stomach.

I totally get what you are saying about sin being the reason God deals out death however in the Old Testament, God takes mortal lives for minor sins or for the fact that some innocent people are merely in the way of the plan moving forward. Plenty of GOOD PEOPLE (by our standards today) die by the swords of Israel, under the command of prophets and so too, plenty die by miracles of God.

Onto Ananias and Saphira in the new testament. If you read the commentary on wikipedia, the account of their deaths really upsets some bible scholars. I imagine it does so because once again, from our tolerant perspective, the sin of Ananias and his wife isn't so bad as to warrant death.

 

Hmm, I put it to you Traveler that your idea of sin warranting death is based on your modern ideas of crime and justice. That is to say 'the punishment fits the crime' and we in our modern civilized state only give the chair/noose etc to those who murder, which is just according to us.

But when it comes to God's plan, God decides when and where to punish the sinner.

# God may take a life for no other reason than that good person being in the way of the plan- that applies to all, including the prophets of old and even today as well. I recall one latter day prophet stating  "...over my dead body..." with regards to his opposition to a repeatedly called for policy change, before he was taken from the earth 2 years later.

 

 

 

 

It may be possible that some are confusing death with a temporary state that is similar to sleeping.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

Absolutely false – the wicked destroy themselves.   What are you thinking???????  Do you not believe in agency?????  Do you have zero concept of free will????  G-d is not the destroyer – Satan is.

 

The Traveler

Satan can and does destroy man through the irrevocable laws and decrees of God. Is it God or Satan that brought the flood waters in to destroy the wicked?

[zil]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

It would require much more discussion – but the short answer is that G-d is the proctor of covenant not the destroyer or the bringer covenant maledictions.   If wickedness was not chosen over life the cities and their inhabitants would have remained.

I can agree with all that.  What I'm not sure of is whether you agree with what the words say - that the Lord destroyed them (but because it's what they chose), or if you disagree with the wording, and if so, how you explain the Lord's choice of wording - or do you think Mormon or some other record-keeper didn't portray the message accurately?

[Alex]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

It may be possible that some are confusing death with a temporary state that is similar to sleeping.

 

The Traveler

There were periods during the creation (Genesis) where that is correct. That doesn't account for the 3,700 (approx) years of exile from the Garden of Eden right up to the final records in the OT. Moses wasn't in a temporary state of sleep nor Noah or the many prophets and kings of Israel who were commanded to kill, or use the power of god to kill.

I'm trying to read you here, not attacking you in anyway.

I think you're in love with the Old Testament as primarily being a metaphor instead of it being a collection of actual records- saying it is metaphor makes the deaths of the innocents fit with the God/Life view you hold.

I put it to you that the OT are records that you don't appreciate because they represent the old pre Christ laws of Moses.  What you don't acknowledge is the modern Church performing miracles, to bring down the wrath of God.

Hmm, you like Christ washing the feet of others, but not Christ dusting his feet, is that correct?

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Alex

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

It may be possible that some are confusing death with a temporary state that is similar to sleeping.

 

The Traveler

It is more likely you are conflating temporal death with spiritual death. The wicked destroy themselves spiritually. It is evident from scripture, if you take the words of scripture literally (i.e. God "smote" him, which obviously implies God killed him, unless you have come up with your own definition of "smote"), that God does indeed take the life and has many times.

Absolutely false – the wicked destroy themselves.   What are you thinking???????  Do you not believe in agency?????  Do you have zero concept of free will????  G-d is not the destroyer – Satan is.

So, when the the first born (especially those under 8 years old) were killed, it is because they were wicked? How does that fit with doctrine regarding their innocence, the innocence of children? Who took the life of the firstborn in Egypt, the young ones who were innocent -- not wicked? So when the scriptures testify and give witness, "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord." (emphasis added) It wasn't really the Lord that "smote" all the firstborn in Egypt (even those who were children -- innocent -- not wicked), it totally means something else?

It is obvious from scripture that God has removed his children from this earth, temporal death. Spiritual death, which destroys the soul, is obviously from sin.

I have no understanding of how you are ignoring these scriptures that clearly witness it was the Lord -- I am the Lord -- who caused the breath and life to cease from the firstborn of Egypt, which states clearly, "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt...there was not a house where there was not one dead." But, as you have agency, you can believe what you want the scriptures to say.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Anddenex

[zil]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

It may be possible that some are confusing death with a temporary state that is similar to sleeping.

The Traveler

Sorry, Traveler, but I'm just gonna be real blunt.  The above and your comments leading up to it is you being a jerk.  You know full well when the rest of us cite things like the flood or the destruction mentioned in 3 Nephi that we mean temporal death.  If you want to talk exclusively about spiritual death, then distinguish already.  It's not hard, add one word.  In your first post in this thread on this topic, all you had to do was say: "When I speak of 'death', I mean 'spiritual death'.  I consider temporal death to be a temporary state akin to sleeping."  Had you done that, we all could have been on the same page instead of wasting our time.  And frankly, I think you know that, but wanted to toy with us.

Edited November 30, 2017 by zil

[Alex]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Sorry, Traveler, but I'm just gonna be real blunt.  The above and your comments leading up to it is you being a jerk.  You know full well when the rest of us cite things like the flood or the destruction mentioned in 3 Nephi that we mean temporal death.  If you want to talk exclusively about spiritual death, then distinguish already.  It's not hard, add one word.  In your first post in this thread on this topic, all you had to do was say: "When I speak of 'death', I mean 'spiritual death'.  I consider temporal death to be a temporary state akin to sleeping."  Had you don't that, we all could have been on the same page instead of wasting our time.  And frankly, I think you know that, but wanted to toy with us.

Yeah, I've heard some LDSaints play down the facts of the OT before though.

The last member I heard say something like what Traveler has said, also went on to talk about the 'figurative bible' while loudly proclaiming that he was a practicing vegetarian. 

[askandanswer]

There seems to be an underlying belief in this thread that death is a bad thing. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure if that's how God views it. In some ways, death is like birth - both are nothing more than a transfer from one form of life to another. Why should we think it wrong or bad if God chooses to involve Himself in that process? True, when a person dies, there may be grief and mourning by those who are left behind, but for the person who dies, he is simply leaving his family and friends who are still alive and going to be reunited with those who have already died. I think it might be helpful to adjust our perspective and to look beyond our usual temporal, earth bound view. 

[zil]

15 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

There seems to be an underlying belief in this thread that death is a bad thing.

Let us be clear, since Traveler wants to mix and match - spiritual death is a bad thing.  Temporal death, not necessarily.

[Guest MormonGator]

30 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

There seems to be an underlying belief in this thread that death is a bad thing. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure if that's how God views it. In some ways, death is like birth - both are nothing more than a transfer from one form of life to another. Why should we think it wrong or bad if God chooses to involve Himself in that process? True, when a person dies, there may be grief and mourning by those who are left behind, but for the person who dies, he is simply leaving his family and friends who are still alive and going to be reunited with those who have already died. I think it might be helpful to adjust our perspective and to look beyond our usual temporal, earth bound view. 

To me, one of the underlying issues here (And there are several) is that the person you think God is telling you to kill probably won't agree with you. In fact, they might not share your belief that death is not a bad thing! 

[askandanswer]

19 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

To me, one of the underlying issues here (And there are several) is that the person you think God is telling you to kill probably won't agree with you. In fact, they might not share your belief that death is not a bad thing! 

 

(Old Testament | Job 1:21)

 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

 

 (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 2:23 - 25)

23  And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

25  And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves?  I answer you, Nay.  Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

 

My reply to the person who was trying to prevent me from carrying out what God had asked me to do, as specified in the written agreement negotiated between myself and the angel, is that "it's not your life I'm trying to take, it belongs to God. He gave it to you and now He's asked for it back. Thank Him for the life that you've had and that He gave to you. 

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

 

(Old Testament | Job 1:21)

 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

 

 (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 2:23 - 25)

23  And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

25  And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves?  I answer you, Nay.  Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

 

My reply to the person who was trying to prevent me from carrying out what God had asked me to do, as specified in the written agreement negotiated between myself and the angel, is that "it's not your life I'm trying to take, it belongs to God. He gave it to you and now He's asked for it back. Thank Him for the life that you've had and that He gave to you. 

Maybe you and @Anddenex can share a jail cell together. 
(I'm playing guys) 

[Anddenex]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Maybe you and @Anddenex can share a jail cell together. 
(I'm playing guys) 

Only if you send me expensive cigars.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Anddenex said:

Only if you send me expensive cigars.

And to think, most LDS get offended when I send them cigars. Ingrates! 

[zil]

39 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And to think, most LDS get offended when I send them cigars. Ingrates! 

You're welcome to send me any of these cigars.  I'm partial to the following (in order):

• Ascending Dragon - Aka
• Ascending Dragon - Heki-tamenuri
• Dragonflies
• Kingfisher

(Soft fine nib, gold, single tone)

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, zil said:

You're welcome to send me any of these cigars.  I'm partial to the following (in order):

• Ascending Dragon - Aka
• Ascending Dragon - Heki-tamenuri
• Dragonflies
• Kingfisher

(Soft fine nib, gold, single tone)

@zil, if you spend $4,000 on a pen (even if it looks like a cool cigar!) you'll be demoted from 3rd to 8th! 

[zil]

Just now, MormonGator said:

@zil, if you spend $4,000 on a pen (even if it looks like a cool cigar!) you'll be demoted from 3rd to 8th! 

My favorite is only $1500.   And it's not the pen that costs that much, it's the artwork on the pen - those are all done by hand by a single artisan.  (Not that I'll ever buy one, but those dragons are beautiful.)