Would You? Abraham/Isaac, Nephi/Laban, Saul/Amelikites

[zil]

6 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

On 11/29/2017 at 6:37 PM, lostinwater said:

As i read that, i wonder if the ox was stung by a bee, bolted, tipped the ark over, and it crushed Uzzah - and the people were so superstitious that they believed it was God. 

And if that is how it happened, why do you assume that it wasn't Him?

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Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

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Helaman 12:

7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

8 For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

Nature obeys God better than humans, so I personally have no problem believing the bee and the ox were doing as instructed.

[askandanswer]

I think that we all belong to God and He can do with us as He will. Sometimes He acts directly, sometimes He acts through others. 

[askandanswer]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

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Helaman 12:

7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

I think Helaman might have been wrong on this one ^. 

Psalms 8:5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

I prefer the view that humanity is God's greatest creation. 
 

 

[zil]

5 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I think that we all belong to God and He can do with us as He will. Sometimes He acts directly, sometimes He acts through others. 

I think Christ purchased all of us and is free to do with us as he will.

1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

I think Helaman might have been wrong on this one ^. 

Psalms 8:5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

I prefer the view that humanity is God's greatest creation.

I comprehend both views, and agree with both.  Psalms and similar verses are speaking of our origin and potential.  Helaman is referring, I think, to how well or poorly we (as a species) obey - and apparently, when it comes to filling the measure of our creation, dust is doing better in the percentages - though we probably have it beat in potential and straight numbers.  Moses too, I think, saw this dichotomy - nothing (compared to the sheer magnitude of all creation), but children of God nonetheless, and his work and glory.

[Anddenex]

9 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I think Helaman might have been wrong on this one ^. 

Psalms 8:5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

I prefer the view that humanity is God's greatest creation.

I would venture to say that the duality of both are correct, and that these statements aren't at odds against each other in the light and context they were given. If in the mouth of two or three witnesses ever word is established, then where did Helaman probably hear this first?

Mosiah 4: 5, "For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—"

Mosiah 4: 11, 'even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel."

We are indeed God's greatest creations, for we are in his image. We also need to come to recognize and awaken to our nothingness before him.

I would say King Benjamin and Helaman both had a good idea of what they were saying and that what they were saying was true.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Anddenex

[askandanswer]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

Helaman is referring, I think, to how well or poorly we (as a species) obey - and apparently, when it comes to filling the measure of our creation, dust is doing better in the percentages - though we probably have it beat in potential and straight numbers.  Moses too, I think, saw this dichotomy - nothing (compared to the sheer magnitude of all creation), but children of God nonetheless, and his work and glory.

At the risk of thread derailment, and not particularly wanting to discuss the matter in great detail, a crucial difference is that we choose whether or not to obey God, but I don't think the dust does. It just does as its commanded, probably without the abilty to choose.

[Anddenex]

20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And that's where we disagree, strongly. Telling an atheist to die because it's God's right to take their life is like an atheist telling you to die for the state. Both are gravely evil. 

Then you and Heavenly Father will probably have a long talk regarding "rights", and in the end, we all will be exclaimed to say (just as Nephi), "They ways are just," and bow the knee.

[askandanswer]

3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Mosiah 4: 5, "For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—"

I would be reluctant to describe any of God's creations as worthless. To do so is almost an insult to God. I certainly agree that we are all in a fallen state but I don't think that makes us worthless.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Anddenex said:

Then you and Heavenly Father will probably have a long talk regarding "rights", and in the end, we all will be exclaimed to say (just as Nephi), "They ways are just," and bow the knee.

And you and Him will have a long talk about spilling innocent blood in His name. 

And we agree that in the end, we all will bow to Him. 

[Anddenex]

Just now, askandanswer said:

I would be reluctant to describe any of God's creations as worthless. To do so is almost an insult to God. I certainly agree that we are all in a fallen state but I don't think that makes us worthless.

I understand; however, this is "canon" scripture and words that Heavenly Father through Mormon decided were the "best" parts.

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

And you and Him will have a long talk about spilling innocent blood in His name. 

And we agree that in the end, we all will bow to Him. 

Yes, it will be a question I will have to further my understanding of why He did spill blood, innocent blood, in His name, and why he commanded Nephi to kill Laban, which some are calling "greatly evil" and yet there is no "evil" that comes from God. So yes, it will be a good conversation of learning.

[zil]

7 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

At the risk of thread derailment, and not particularly wanting to discuss the matter in great detail, a crucial difference is that we choose whether or not to obey God, but I don't think the dust does. It just does as its commanded, probably without the abilty to choose.

I am not convinced that "inanimate" objects do not have agency within their own sphere.  I'm not convinced they do, I'm just not convinced they don't either.  In other words, I think it's possible they do.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Anddenex said:

 which some are calling "greatly evil" \

I think I said "gravely evil" but greatly evil is also acceptable. 

[Anddenex]

5 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I am surprised that you take the bible stories so literally.

And I forgot, seeing that you didn't read the comment very closely you will see the mention of a Lamanite in the Book of Mormon, which I assume from your thoughts thus far you take "very figuratively" and not literally. Here is the actual scripture, "Now, one of them, whose brother had been slain with the sword of Ammon, being exceedingly angry with Ammon, drew his sword and went forth that he might let it fall upon Ammon, to slay him; and as he lifted the sword to smite him, behold, he fell dead." (Book of Mormon, emphasis added)

Who stopped this Lamanites breath that he fell down dead?

Edited December 2, 2017 by Anddenex

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

I am not convinced that "inanimate" objects do not have agency within their own sphere.  I'm not convinced they do, I'm just not convinced they don't either.  In other words, I think it's possible they do.

Well, in the Pearl of Great Price we are informed that the earth mourned the death of its creator, "‘And the Lord said unto Enoch, Look; and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men; and he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the Saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory; and as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day’ [Moses 7:55–57]."

Now, that could be descriptive regarding the tumult the earth experienced, so not sure either.

[askandanswer]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I understand; however, this is "canon" scripture and words that Heavenly Father through Mormon decided were the "best" parts.

Yes, when the scriptures sometimes disagree with each other, it makes for an interesting quandary, and one which I haven't resolved yet. Personally, I think that in this case King Benjamin, in his speech was using a particular teaching technique whereby it suited his purposes to highlight the difference between man and God rather than making a doctrinal statement on the status of man. 

What King Benjamin said is not too different from what Moses said, as Zil referred to above. In the most recent General Conference, Elder Cook referenced Moses' remarks and suggested that they were not accurate. If Moses' remarks on this subject were not accurate, and King Benjamin's remarks being similar to those of Moses, then perhaps King Benjamin's remarks were not completely accurate either.

Moses’s somewhat surprising reaction was, “Now … I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.”⁵

Subsequently, God, in what amounts to a rebuttal to any feelings of unimportance that Moses may have felt, proclaimed His true purpose: “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”⁶

^{https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/the-eternal-everyday?lang=eng}

[zil]

I knew you would go there next.   My position is simply that there is no conflict.  Each perspective is teaching a different truth and they are not mutually exclusive.  I have no problems with my level of obedience being compared to the level of obedience of dust, and being told to improve until I'm as good at obeying God as dust is.

[askandanswer]

6 minutes ago, zil said:

I am not convinced that "inanimate" objects do not have agency within their own sphere.  I'm not convinced they do, I'm just not convinced they don't either.  In other words, I think it's possible they do.

I agree. And its probabably by the righteous exercise of that agency that the dust ( or other inanimate object) progresses to become something greater than dust. Adding further support to the arguement, because the Earth is a living thing, with agency, and some forms of dust originate from the Earth, eg, dirt, then perhaps dustdoes have a form of agency. 

[mirkwood]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

When you arrest someone for murder, if they tell you "God told me to kill them" you take the handcuffs off and let them go immediately, right? 

 

[mirkwood]

49 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

At the risk of thread derailment

Calling @MormonGator for a thread derailment moment...

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Calling @MormonGator for a thread derailment moment...

 

 

Anyone who likes that song is truly a son of perdition. 

And dude, I tagged you on my latest FB post. Last song that Lemmy ever did was released today. Very bittersweet. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by MormonGator

[Alex]

43 minutes ago, zil said:

I am not convinced that "inanimate" objects do not have agency within their own sphere.  I'm not convinced they do, I'm just not convinced they don't either.  In other words, I think it's possible they do.

Hmm, the earth has a spirit according to D&C.In that revelation 'a' is one spirit.

 

It's a very complex belief you have there Zil. Do you want share more of it with us?

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Well, in the Pearl of Great Price we are informed that the earth mourned the death of its creator, "‘And the Lord said unto Enoch, Look; and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men; and he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the Saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory; and as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day’ [Moses 7:55–57]."

Now, that could be descriptive regarding the tumult the earth experienced, so not sure either.

No, that whole inanimate objects as having spirits is animism. The Japanese go in for that stuff like crazy- they build cars with happy faces formed from the headlights and grills in order to tap the Japanese people's widespread cultural beliefs regarding animism.

There's no doctrinal basis for objects having spirits unless you interpret "all things created spiritually" to literally mean all organized matter has a spirit.

It gets trickier because the question arises as to matter itself (atomic matter) having an individual spirit. This then creates a problem as I see it for it means that when Christ formed us spiritually, he would had to have done so from many smaller spirits (because spirit is fine matter) and I don't like that idea- it just feels too weird. Apparently our spirits cannot be un-created.

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Alex said:

Hmm, the earth has a spirit according to D&C.In that revelation 'a' is one spirit.

It's a very complex belief you have there Zil. Do you want share more of it with us?

Abraham 4: "...and the Gods saw that they were obeyed."  Now one could say that it was sentient human (or similar-to-human) beings who obeyed, carrying out commands which brought about the desired results.  But verse 12 makes it hard to say that for sure:

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12 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

And then there's this verse:

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18 And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed.

Which really sounds like "things" - not humans - obeyed.

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21 And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

22 And the Gods said: We will bless them, and cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas or great waters; and cause the fowl to multiply in the earth.

What "them"?  Well, the animals.  So if not dust or plants, it would seem at least animals can obey.  And the "saw that they would obey" sounds like they have the option not to.  And then we end:

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31 And the Gods said: We will do everything that we have said, and organize them; and behold, they shall be very obedient.

..."very obedient" - sounds like varying degrees of obedience are an option.

When you add these sorts of scriptures together, and add to it agency and these ideas:

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D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

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D&C 121:46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

It makes me think it's possible that all things have some capacity to choose whether or not to obey.  That said, I can understand why someone might say that only the children of God have that capacity, or only certain creatures, but not all things - I can see the reason or logic to such ideas.  But to me there is enough in all the above to believe it's possible that everything shares in that capacity to choose (within its sphere).

1 minute ago, Alex said:

There's no doctrinal basis for objects having spirits unless you interpret "all things created spiritually" to literally mean all organized matter has a spirit.

Why would you not think that?  Unless "all" is not really "all", what else could it mean - that God thought about them before making them?  What would the phrase mean unless there was some sort of spirit created? (That isn't a rhetorical question.)

Just because something has "spirit" does not mean its spirit has the same make-up as human spirits.  It doesn't have to have human-level intelligence, sentience, or agency.  As for making a larger spirit from a set of smaller spirits - well, see Abraham 4, which may present one possible explanation.  See also teachings about eternal marriage, the Godhead, and "being one".  Also, let go of the idea that our spiritual make-up has to follow the same pattern as is used for spiritual creation of atoms, minerals, plants, or animals - it may be the same pattern, it may not.

I am not willing to make definitive statements about what's not possible when I know for certain that my own knowledge is a fraction of a fraction of an infinitesimal fraction of what's knowable.  I may not say with certainty - because that would be just as ignorant - but I'm not about to rule out possibilities just because my ignorance can't manage the physics or geology or biology or whateverology of it.

More to think on:

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D&C 88:

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

D&C 77:

1 Q. What is the sea of glass spoken of by John, 4th chapter, and 6th verse of the Revelation?A. It is the earth, in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state.

A. It is the earth, in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state.

Sounds like the earth is choosing to do something, sounds like it will die a temporal death.  What is temporal death?  The separation of mortal body from immortal spirit.  Sounds like it will be resurrected - reuniting of body and spirit.  Immortal implies alive.  Alive implies spirit.

[Alex]

Hmm, first up, is it possible Zil that 'they were obeyed' means that the Gods watched over or observed to make sure what they had organized, didn't go off and mutate or adapt ? in other words the Gods directed the cycle of life so it would replicate itself into the future, for each generation of us to enjoy and live from? By setting the cycle of life on the earth to be self-fulfilling, it requires no oversight and therefore would require oversight only to make certain it was set to run properly from the start. 'Obey' not as a literal verb but obey as in check the course thereof.

 

 

I'm really enjoying this discussion Zil but I have an invite to a BBQ and Settlers of Catan day beginning in 20 minutes.   I'll come back to this thread later tonight. I'm not shooting you down in any way btw- just want to flesh out further the possibilities.

((What you are suggesting runs very close to Spencer's account (Vision's of Glory) of the people within the earth who talk to inanimate objects and ask the objects spiritually to alter their state of being. Q- Do I believe in that account? A- Not too sure about the mysterious lost peoples of God within the earth but willing to listen to how this spirit convincing and spirit commanding works.))