Heavenly Mother & Mother Mary

[Alex]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is what many Latter-day Saints, including temple presidents, say. But it is mere speculation. There is no established teaching that "the woman gets to choose".

Well, this is where it gets tricky because these double sealings for women have occurred and did so until the doctrine was refined. "The woman gets to choose" is only erroneous in the sense that both husband and wife get to choose- God doesn't choose for them.

The more efficient the church becomes, the less these oversights occur.  

[Blossom76]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

How about just post the Church Handbook section, General Conference talk, or other source for your claim? That would be the most helpful and efficient thing.

Sorry off topic but is whats said at General Conference classed as official doctrine?

[Alex]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

How about just post the Church Handbook section, General Conference talk, or other source for your claim? That would be the most helpful and efficient thing.

Okay, I'm going down to the temple in a fortnight so I'll ask at the temple for the precise doctrines there.

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

This helps, thank you, but I still don't know where I will be placed in heaven if I am not sealed in a temple.

Consider this set of scriptures

D&C 137

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

Joseph Smith saw a vision of this brother in God's kingdom.  He did not know or understand how it was possible and in verse 7 the Lord explained it to him.

Verse 7 directly applies to you at this time.  If you "would have received it if you had been permitted" you will get it.  Right now you are not permitted to be Sealed because you are not a member and your spouse is not a member.  You are working to change the only one of those that you can. 

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

Sorry off topic but is whats said at General Conference classed as official doctrine?

Yes and no...

Things that have been repeatedly taught are.  However if one of the speakers should declare something new or different (Like the time of the Second Coming for example) then it is considered that speakers opinion until others back it up

[Blossom76]

7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Consider this set of scriptures

D&C 137

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

Joseph Smith saw a vision of this brother in God's kingdom.  He did not know or understand how it was possible and in verse 7 the Lord explained it to him.

Verse 7 directly applies to you at this time.  If you "would have received it if you had been permitted" you will get it.  Right now you are not permitted to be Sealed because you are not a member and your spouse is not a member.  You are working to change the only one of those that you can. 

When I am baptised then hold a temple recommend then I am permitted to be sealed - but if my husband does not convert too then I have no one to be sealed to.

Where do I go in heaven then - because in all honestly that is the reality of the situation I will be looking at

[Alex]

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

I can't figure out what you're trying to say. In fact, a man can divorce his wife and marry a "tender & fresh young new wife", assuming any young woman was foolish enough to want tomarry some old lech. The Church does not prohibit such actions.

Now, can such a man who acts in that manner possibly be a celestial person? Not unless he repents. He is a fool and will have no wife at all in eternity if what you describe was his intention, unless he repents of such infamous actions. But your implication seems to be that the Church somehow prohibits such things. The Church does not prohibit such things. People can act as they will, and the Church will do nothing more serious than excommunicate them. As far as I know, divorcing your old wife and marrying a young wife does not normally open a man up for excommunication.

This is false. There is no such doctrine in the Church. If a woman is sealed to her ex-husband, she cannot be sealed to her new husband until and unless her first sealing is cancelled by the First Presidency.

Yes, a man can divorce the woman he was sealed to in order to go after a fresh young new wife but the sealing between the man and his first wife is now null and void. Yes, he has committed the act of putting the first wife aside and the promise of an eternal sealing is lost- it's not that the act is prohibited, he just loses the promise of the sealing.

Here, this isn't a church site but it puts it simply:

https://www.thoughtco.com/can-mormons-divorce-if-temple-marriage-2159554

Now, my friend is in a quagmire because there were 2 sealings and the first sealing wasn't cancelled (that's what she says).  

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

Yes, a man can divorce the woman he was sealed to in order to go after a fresh young new wife but the sealing between the man and his first wife is now null and void.

Unrighteousness voids any covenant, but the sealing of a divorced couple is still on the records of the Church and remains so until and unless the First Presidency dissolves it. The actual voiding of the covenant is at the will of the Lord.

[estradling75]

23 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

When I am baptised then hold a temple recommend then I am permitted to be sealed - but if my husband does not convert too then I have no one to be sealed to.

Where do I go in heaven then - because in all honestly that is the reality of the situation I will be looking at

No blessing will be denied you for things you can not control... I am not sure how we can make that any clearer

[Alex]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Unrighteousness voids any covenant, but the sealing of a divorced couple is still on the records of the Church and remains so until and unless the First Presidency dissolves it. The actual voiding of the covenant is at the will of the Lord.

Yes, that's fair enough but that needs to be stronger, less after-life judgement and more on the now- needs emphasis on the individual's acts instead of God's judgement.

In another case I know of a total inactive who got a divorce from his first wife and he smokes pot and lives with his girlfriend. When I have home taught he claims, nay boasts, that he 'is still sealed to his (now divorced) wife' and 'they will be together for eternity'.

When that conference talk was made a few years back it was done so to put emphasis on the actions of individuals.

[Blossom76]

8 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

No blessing will be denied you for things you can not control... I am not sure how we can make that any clearer

This is from the LDS.org talking about this very subject, 'The Importance of Celestial Marriage' its a long talk and I'm pouring over it but it says 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/10/the-importance-of-celestial-marriage?lang=eng 

We may be angels, if we are righteous enough. Even unmarried, we may reach the celestial kingdom, but we will be ministering angels only.

So I guess I'll be a servant in the Celestial Kingdom at best - at least I'll be there, that's what matters right?

[Alex]

7 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

This is from the LDS.org talking about this very subject, 'The Importance of Celestial Marriage' its a long talk and I'm pouring over it but it says 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/10/the-importance-of-celestial-marriage?lang=eng 

We may be angels, if we are righteous enough. Even unmarried, we may reach the celestial kingdom, but we will be ministering angels only.

So I guess I'll be a servant in the Celestial Kingdom at best - at least I'll be there, that's what matters right?

rhetorical questions here:

1) Do you have a patriarchal blessing?

2) Does it mention the millennium?

 

Those answers are for you, not for us.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

Please believe me when I say I mean absolutely no offence whatsoever when I say this (I am a very sincere investigator) but I don't see this as a matter of trusting God, I trust God without question.  For me the trust issue here is with LDS teachings, which are supposedly given to LDS Prophets by God, so for me this is a matter of trusting the LDS teachings and prophets.  If they are speaking for God then this is true, if they are not then this is not true.

Eternity is a long time and my husband isn't likely to join the LDS church and get sealed to me in a temple so where do I go for eternity? 

@Blossom76, you are a fabulous person and ask FANTASTIC questions.  I have zero doubts about your sincerity as a person, or specifically asking about the LDS faith.  If I gave any impression to the contrary of that, I deeply deeply apologize for such a mistake.  You ask great great questions here, I'll try to spend the next few minutes.

[askandanswer]

Blossom I 

18 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

So I guess I'll be a servant in the Celestial Kingdom at best - at least I'll be there, that's what matters right?

Blossom, I thought the answer to this question would be that after your husband dies, you do the temple ordinances for him. If you die before he does, then hopefully someone else will do those ordinance for you. Then when you are both in the post mortal life, he gets to decide which of the ordinances that have been done on his behalf he will accept.

[Jane_Doe]

19 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

This is from the LDS.org talking about this very subject, 'The Importance of Celestial Marriage' its a long talk and I'm pouring over it but it says 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/10/the-importance-of-celestial-marriage?lang=eng 

We may be angels, if we are righteous enough. Even unmarried, we may reach the celestial kingdom, but we will be ministering angels only.

So I guess I'll be a servant in the Celestial Kingdom at best - at least I'll be there, that's what matters right?

It doesn't mean you have to be married right now.  Rather, God is a God of grace and many opportunities to grow, including after this mortal death.  It doesn't have to now.  That's why we have sealings for the dead. 

[Jane_Doe]

@Blossom76, I am an LDS lady married to an evangelical husband.  Obviously we are not yet sealed.  The key word there is "yet"-- it will happen.  

While my husband is support of me in my faith, there are eternal forces preventing him from participating much himself right now.  If circumstance/he change during this life, then he will be baptized and sealed himself.  If not, then after his death the baptism and sealing will be done vicariously on his behalf, and he'll have the opportunity to either accept or deny those covenants.  Even though we are not sealed now, it will eventually be done, and he'll have the choice whether or not to accept/honor those vows.

It is likewise with you and your husband: you both will eventually have the opportunity to accept/honor those vows before the Lord.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

When I am baptised then hold a temple recommend then I am permitted to be sealed - but if my husband does not convert too then I have no one to be sealed to.

Where do I go in heaven then - because in all honestly that is the reality of the situation I will be looking at

Blossom, this is just speculation on my part, and no doubt more learned members will correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm imagining the situation in the post mortal life where you are a baptised, endowed LDS member and your Catholic husband has been vacariously baptised, endowed and sealed to you. And now you and he are in the Spirit World and he's trying to decide what to do - accept the temple ordinances which have been made on his behalf and accept what he has been taught in the Spirit World, the truth of which is all about him, and in so doing, keep you together for eternity, or will he turn away from what he has been taught in the Spirit World, reject the ordinances, and cling to his mortal beliefs, knowing that in doing so will either lose you, or drag you down with him into a place of lesser happiness. Those are his options as I understand them. Which do you think he will choose?

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

When I am baptised then hold a temple recommend then I am permitted to be sealed - but if my husband does not convert too then I have no one to be sealed to.

Where do I go in heaven then - because in all honestly that is the reality of the situation I will be looking at

All the cats who never had a cat lady in this life will be yours to snuggle with.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

Sorry off topic but is whats said at General Conference classed as official doctrine?

A useful link for you about approaching LDS doctrine: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

Now to address your question specifically: the gold standard for doctrine is scriptures and official proclamations/declarations.  General conference talks (especially most recent ones) are a silver standard below that, being extremely useful for clarifying doctrine and expounding on teaching, but they are not automatically scripture.

[Blossom76]

40 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

@Blossom76, I am an LDS lady married to an evangelical husband.  Obviously we are not yet sealed.  The key word there is "yet"-- it will happen.  

While my husband is support of me in my faith, there are eternal forces preventing him from participating much himself right now.  If circumstance/he change during this life, then he will be baptized and sealed himself.  If not, then after his death the baptism and sealing will be done vicariously on his behalf, and he'll have the opportunity to either accept or deny those covenants.  Even though we are not sealed now, it will eventually be done, and he'll have the choice whether or not to accept/honor those vows.

I like this idea, so he has given his permission to do the sealing after he has passed?  

[zil]

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I've actually just finished reading Jacob (I know I'm not very far in) But it mentions a few times that polygamy is an abomination to God so how can it be allowed in Heaven? Or on earth for that matter - I know its not done anymore on earth but it was and by Joseph - who dictated the Book of Mormon - which says polygamy is an abomination to God - doesn't make much sense.  How can a prophet go against the Book of Mormon? Especially the Prophet that first did the translation? I find that concept very confusing

Go back and read again - he says:

Quote

Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

...In other words, if the Lord commands it, plural marriage is acceptable.  Otherwise, it is not.  The default position appears to be "no plural marriage".  The exception is "unless the Lord commands".  At times, he has so commanded.

[Blossom76]

35 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Blossom, this is just speculation on my part, and no doubt more learned members will correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm imagining the situation in the post mortal life where you are a baptised, endowed LDS member and your Catholic husband has been vacariously baptised, endowed and sealed to you. And now you and he are in the Spirit World and he's trying to decide what to do - accept the temple ordinances which have been made on his behalf and accept what he has been taught in the Spirit World, the truth of which is all about him, and in so doing, keep you together for eternity, or will he turn away from what he has been taught in the Spirit World, reject the ordinances, and cling to his mortal beliefs, knowing that in doing so will either lose you, or drag you down with him into a place of lesser happiness. Those are his options as I understand them. Which do you think he will choose?

I guess I will have to ask him, I don't think he would appreciate being baptised into another faith after he has passed without him giving his permission for me to do so, I'll have to approach that one with serious caution

[Blossom76]

35 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Blossom, this is just speculation on my part, and no doubt more learned members will correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm imagining the situation in the post mortal life where you are a baptised, endowed LDS member and your Catholic husband has been vacariously baptised, endowed and sealed to you. And now you and he are in the Spirit World and he's trying to decide what to do - accept the temple ordinances which have been made on his behalf and accept what he has been taught in the Spirit World, the truth of which is all about him, and in so doing, keep you together for eternity, or will he turn away from what he has been taught in the Spirit World, reject the ordinances, and cling to his mortal beliefs, knowing that in doing so will either lose you, or drag you down with him into a place of lesser happiness. Those are his options as I understand them. Which do you think he will choose?

I guess I will have to ask him, I don't think he would appreciate being baptised into another faith after he has passed without him giving his permission for me to do so, I'll have to approach that one with serious caution

 

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I like this idea, so he has given his permission to do the sealing after he has passed?  

That's irrelevant.  All sealings will eventually be done.   (Though he is cool with the idea, to actually answer your question).

Likewise, you and your husband will have the opportunity to accept/honor those vows, whether it happens before mortal death or after.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Blossom76]

sorry I have no idea why that printed twice!