exaltation Getting lost in the right path...

[Noel T. Batac]

How can one possibly get lost in the right path?

I could not think of a better illustration than that of the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins. The five did not fall out of membership, yet they were excluded from exaltation. 

I am a religious educator for 25 years now. Still, day in day out, I struggle with the question of what ifs...

What if I don’t make it? What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Will the Lord not want me to make it? 

So every night? I end up petitioning; 

“Dear Father in Heaven, help me enter the very kingdom I build…” 

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, Noel T. Batac said:

How can one possibly get lost in the right path?

I could not think of a better illustration than that of the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins. The five did not fall out of membership, yet they were excluded from exaltation. 

I am a religious educator for 25 years now. Still, day in day out, I struggle with the question of what ifs...

What if I don’t make it? What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Will the Lord not want me to make it? 

So every night? I end up petitioning; 

“Dear Father in Heaven, help me enter the very kingdom I build…” 

We are already part of the kingdom of God, our names are already written in heaven. So, the question really becomes- what must I do so that my name is retained in the book of life and not blotted out?

[zil]

Welcome, @Noel T. Batac!

20 minutes ago, Noel T. Batac said:

How can one possibly get lost in the right path?

I could not think of a better illustration than that of the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins. The five did not fall out of membership, yet they were excluded from exaltation. 

This example highlights the fact that "membership" is not "the right path".  It is a tool provided to help one find and follow the right path, but it, in and of itself, does not represent the right path - that path is found and followed in one's heart and mind.  The Lord has given us many tools to help in that process (including teachers and leaders), but the tools aren't the path.

[Jane_Doe]

39 minutes ago, Noel T. Batac said:

What if I don’t make it? What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Will the Lord not want me to make it? 

"If you will really try and will not rationalize or rebel—repenting often and pleading for grace—you positively are going to be “good enough.” "   --- By Elder J. Devn Cornish Of the Seventy, General Conference October 2016 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/am-i-good-enough-will-i-make-it?lang=eng

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Noel T. Batac said:

How can one possibly get lost in the right path?

I could not think of a better illustration than that of the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins. The five did not fall out of membership, yet they were excluded from exaltation. 

I am a religious educator for 25 years now. Still, day in day out, I struggle with the question of what ifs...

What if I don’t make it? What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Will the Lord not want me to make it? 

So every night? I end up petitioning; 

“Dear Father in Heaven, help me enter the very kingdom I build…” 

You should read the book "Chances Are You are Going to be Exalted" (suggested by @Sunday21).  I personally think, for those truly and honestly living worthily of a temple recommend who endure to the end, it will be rare and unusual that they will not make it (and likely involve serious coasting and falling very far below one's potential).  That is my opinion, but I believe the temple recommend questions are purposefully chosen as a very important way of evaluating how you are doing and if you are headed to the Celestial Kingdom.  And yes, I have given this a lot of thought.

In "Chances Are", it makes a point of the fact that Bruce R. McConkie, Mr. Doom and Gloom in most contexts, said that many, many more people are going to be exalted than you probably think!  If McConkie is optimistic, then maybe we should be too.

I have read commentary that the Ten Virgins parable is not supposed to be a mathematical pronouncement of the number of recommend holders or even active members not going to the Celestial Kingdom.  I will see if I can dig up where I read that (it may be in the book, "Chances Are You are Going to be Exalted").  So take the parable for what it is worth - always stay prepared and live worthily, but do not think that the Church is some kind of bell curve of righteousness.  

(The 50% mark does make more sense if you are talking total membership in the Church, though - about 50% of members on the records never come to Church, don't keep the commandments, and really just don't care).

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[anatess2]

Hoy, Kababayan!

Pre, it is important to seek forgiveness from the Lord.  It is just as important to forgive ourselves. 

As my mom would say, "Do your best and God will do the rest."

[Midwest LDS]

That's an excellent question @Noel T. Batac! Remember 2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." I think sometimes we as members get overly focused on the second half of that scripture and forget the comma seperating the two thoughts. You are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ! He has done the heavy lifting that we cannot do, and this is a message of joy and hope. All we can do is endure to the end. That doesn't mean you have to meet some invisible line of goodness before Grace kicks in. It means that if we are trying, and getting up when we fall down, something we will do often, Christ will bring us into the Celestial Kingdom. So if you are doing that, and have faith in Our Lord and Savior don't fret. You will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom of God.

[brlenox]

7 hours ago, Noel T. Batac said:

How can one possibly get lost in the right path?

I could not think of a better illustration than that of the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins. The five did not fall out of membership, yet they were excluded from exaltation. 

I am a religious educator for 25 years now. Still, day in day out, I struggle with the question of what ifs...

What if I don’t make it? What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Will the Lord not want me to make it? 

So every night? I end up petitioning; 

“Dear Father in Heaven, help me enter the very kingdom I build…” 

Yours is an interesting sentiment and I think it speaks to a very common sense of ambiguity that comes from the Gospel message.  Businesses make growth plans and it provides a sense of accomplishment because they establish mile markers that illustrate positive direction of attainment of the objectives.  For many in the gospel, however, a clear understanding of mile markers that point to one's place in attaining the objectives of the righteous is not as apparently formulaic as our traditional business models.

Yet, I am convinced that is a shortcoming of our limitations more than anything else.  Sometimes we are very inclined to claim we believe the gospel but we do not expect to experience the events defined in scripture for ourselves.  Yet it is those events that define where you are on the progress of attaining eternal life. We start right, we repent, get baptized, and confirmed as a member of the church.  We have visual accomplishments of forward progress as we later go to the temple and take out our endowments and ultimately get sealed to a spouse. However, in and of themselves these activities are simply half of the process.  They represent the physical quantifiable actions we can take but they are not confirmations in and of themselves of righteous attainment. After marriage then what? What should we be expecting to define where we are on the scale of spiritual attainment.  Interestingly there is a "business plan" which we should and in fact must be observing in our lives.

1.) When all of the physical tangible efforts are made there is yet objectives which must be met.  The most important is referenced in this statement by Joseph Fielding Smith:

“All members of the Church are enjoined at their confirmation to “receive the Holy Ghost.”  Those who receive Him become Saints; those who do not are halted in their progression toward the kingdom of God.  “We have a great many members of this Church who have never received a manifestation through the Holy Ghost.  Why?  Because they have not made their lives conform to the truth.”  (Joseph Fielding smith, “we Are Here to Be Tried, Tested, proved,”  BYU  Speeches, October 1961, as quoted in “Doctrines of the Gospel” student manual, p44)

It is imperative that we actually can determine that we have received the Holy Ghost.  Without that taking place there is no further progress of significance. Consider this observation by Elder Hafen:

“Receiving the Holy ghost is the baptism by fire which truly begins the process of becoming like Jesus.”

(Bruce C. Hafen, BYUI, Feb 2008)

So, the point being that while the physical ordinance has taken place the spiritual ratification of the effects of the ordinance are not realized until one receives that baptism of fire and knows it.

Up to this point of taking the spirit for your guide I can see someone feeling like they were feeling lost and hoping they were on the right track. However the D & C reads this way concerning the wisdom of seeking this spirit and the promise:

Quote

 

D&C 45:57

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

 

Next we should observe that we have more associations with the "signs" of believers. If we are priesthood holders we should be part of events where we are casting out demons, where we are healing the sick and the other things defined in scripture as signs of the believers. We should be growing in opportunities and success in observing these miracles in our lives. I'll not reference the grundle of scriptures that speak to other experiences that should naturally occur on occasion in our lives but will simply reference some of them.  We should receive angels, we should be having visions, discernment should be heightened in our lives.  Each of these kinds of things helps to diminish the sense of being lost at all but serve as indicators that we are moving along and improving in our spiritual growth.  Until one day we could potentially find Ether 4 a reality:

Quote

Ether 4:7

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

In other words there is a game plan in the scriptures.  We need to put it together and then make sure we do not travel the distance without first claiming the Holy Ghost as our guide, from there the education is singular to the individual and you will move with surety in the paths of God under the direction of the Holy Ghost..

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by brlenox

[Noel T. Batac]

Concentraiting on the “after all we can do” without the balancing of “we are saved by grace because of our faith in Christ”. It’s an interesting thought.

[brlenox]

6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

We are already part of the kingdom of God, our names are already written in heaven. So, the question really becomes- what must I do so that my name is retained in the book of life and not blotted out?

I honestly think that depending upon ones objectives that there may be caveats to this sentiment. In scripture we find a progressive aspect of the benefits of repentance. First we are forgiven of our sins, second we receive a remission of our sins and third we are pronounced clean from the blood and sins of this generation. Each one of these is indicative of certain aspects of our spiritual progression. The final one is the one that I feel most reflective of the need for commitment in actively engaging in the process of building up the kingdom of God.  Consider these verses from Doctrine and Covenants 88:

Quote

 

Doctrine and Covenants 88:74-75

74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean;

75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will.

 

As this section is being given to members of the school of the prophets we recognize that these are in general the early leaders of the church.  Here the Lord references those who have been engaged since the beginning in bringing the Gospel to the World.

But the Lord also references another group:

Quote

 

Doctrine and Covenants 88:85

85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation. 

 

This group is yet to be declared free from the blood and sins of this generation.  So we have two groups within this group of those who are participants in the school of the prophets.  We can rest assured that they, the majority, have been forgiven for their sins.  We can surmise the probability that they have been born again and thus received a remission of their sins. And here we find reference that there is still beyond that the opportunity to be free from any association with a failure to do all that one can to teach others of the path to Jesus Christ and the promised blessings of the Father. One may be baptized, converted and then proceed along at a comfortable pace distant ever so slightly from the well worn narrow path of the vigilant and valiant who sacrifice, and toil to see God's kingdom advanced and established in the earth. However a casual engagement will not be the benefit to the individual that the valiant seek and receive from their efforts.  

 

 

 

 

[Sunday21]

@Noel T. Batac. Welcome! Perhaps it would be an idea to visit the temple and pray in the Celestial room. You could ask, How am I doing? What lack I yet?

[zlarry123]

Welcome! Perhaps it would be an idea to visit the temple and pray in the Celestial room. You could ask, How am I doing? 

Or

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. KJV
 

[Jane_Doe]

16 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

Welcome! Perhaps it would be an idea to visit the temple and pray in the Celestial room. You could ask, How am I doing? 

Or

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. KJV
 

FYI: praying in the temple is a private place, just like literally praying in your closet. 

[Anddenex]

@Sunday21"Welcome! Perhaps it would be an idea to visit the temple and pray in the Celestial room. You could ask, How am I doing?"

Or

@zlarry123  Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. KJV

Or

Acts 22:17 "And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;" KJV

Or

Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican." KJV

[Anddenex]

10 hours ago, Noel T. Batac said:

How can one possibly get lost in the right path?

I could not think of a better illustration than that of the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins. The five did not fall out of membership, yet they were excluded from exaltation. 

I am a religious educator for 25 years now. Still, day in day out, I struggle with the question of what ifs...

What if I don’t make it? What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Will the Lord not want me to make it? 

So every night? I end up petitioning; 

“Dear Father in Heaven, help me enter the very kingdom I build…” 

How can one possibly get lost in the right path? Through apathy and having an attitude of "All is well in Zion."

Still, day in day out, I struggle with the question of what ifs... What if I don’t make it? Welcome to the club brother, we all struggle, and a great prophet struggled, and allowed us to view his struggle with this thought, "I know in whom I have trusted." Encouragement, continue to trust in Jesus (as you already know).

What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Nothing, this brings a smile to the adversary as he and his minions are the only ones that want you to think this way (what you already know), but again, welcome to the club, and remember as Nephi, "I know in whom I have trusted." Encouragement, continue to trust in Jesus."

Will the Lord not want me to make it? Sorry, as to the way I am reading (as I am not sure your meaning of "not") I have this to share: 1) If you are meaning "Does the Lord want me to make it?" An astounding and emphatic "YES!" He desired all our exaltation! 2) If you are meaning a negative "not" then -- NO -- God wants and desires your happiness and joy to make it.

So every night? I end up petitioning;  I would like to provide a thought. Rather praying "help me to enter the kingdom I build" (as I don't want to enter the kingdom I build), might be more profitable to pray, "Dear Father in heaven, help me that I might build thy kingdom, and help thy kingdom come." I would venture to say that this would be more profitable if we are seeking exaltation through Christ, and it honors his thoughts during his prayer, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done."

Just a thought, as I don't know the intent of your heart, I am only able to read what you have written.

[Traveler]

 @Noel T. Batac I will give my opinion to your questions:

How can one possibly get lost in the right path?  I do not think it is possible.  It is my opinion that the correct path (or way) involves covenant and obedience to covenant.  The symbolism in scripture is that a “iron rod” runs along the path of right (righteousness).  As long as one holds to the “iron rod” they cannot become lost.

Still, day in day out, I struggle with the question of what ifs... What if I don’t make it?  I believe this question is placed in our thoughts by the adversary.   It is not about “making it” – it is about the covenants and journey.  Or as my father would say – the justice of life is that we will all eventually end up where we are going.  As long as we keep going.  There is a corollary to this thought – That is never start down a path that leads to a place you do not intend to arrive at.

What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? The point of this thought is realizing that it is inspired by the adversary.   If you are entertaining this thought you are entertaining the adversary – I suggest you do not spend any more energy worrying about what won’t happen and focus on what should and will happen.

Will the Lord not want me to make it?  The correct question that needs to be answered is – do you want to continue?  It is about your desire to sacrifice and serve G-d and others.  Nothing else matters near as much.  Courage is not about not having concerns – courage is about doing what is right regardless of any other concern.

So every night? I end up petitioning; I do not believe there is anything wrong with petitioning G-d to help you with what you are doing – especially good and righteous things you are doing.  I do believe it is silly and not productive to ask G-d to help you with something you are not doing – regardless of if it is good or not. 

My father taught me that joy is not in getting what you think you want but learning to appreciate all the good things you already have.  Anything else is the illusion of joy and will end as quickly as it was realized in the hope of something else you want and do not have.

 

The Traveler

[e-eye]

How can one possibly get lost in the right path? Looking beyond the mark.

 

I thought it profound when one of the general authorities spoke about the time on his mission where he had a companion who snuggled struggled*mightily in the service.  When petitioning Heavenly Father the thought came to him - Compared to me the two of you are not much different.

we shouldn't beat ourselves up because of our shortcomings but should strive to become better and repent often.  We are so far from perfection I think Heavenly Father is more interested in our desire to be better and to become like him one day.  

Edited November 28, 2017 by e-eye

[Guest]

The funny thing about this thread is, the people who are most worried about making it are the ones who have the least to actually be worried about (temple worthy members who are honestly trying to do what is right).

The people who are least worried about making it are often the ones who have the most to be worried about (inactive members, members veering towards apostasy, members committing major sins, etc. -  that is probably over half of members on the membership rolls worldwide . . . )

While I think being temple worthy and enduring to the end puts you very, very, very close to exaltation, I can't really in good conscience tell people who have met this goal that it is safe to coast from here on out.  If you aren't always improving at least a little, then you are backsliding!  At very least, people in such shape should keep improving and trying, if for no other reason than it is the right thing to do . . . 

[mordorbund]

36 minutes ago, e-eye said:

he had a companion who snuggled mightily in the service

<snort>

After his mission was he the passionate service leader?

[wenglund]

On 11/27/2017 at 8:31 AM, Noel T. Batac said:

What if I don’t make it? What’s the point of thinking I won’t make it? Will the Lord not want me to make it? 

I am wondering what you mean by "make it"? What is the "end" you have in mind?

If it is of any consolation, we humans are designed psychologically, and I believe intentionally, to value elevating journieys and struggles more than achieving the end. This is particularly comforting for those of us who believe in eternal progression.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Vort]

I agree with @wenglund. The very question about whether we will "make it" betrays a false concept of what we're trying to accomplish in this life and how God judges us. It's as if God is going to draw a line and say, "Everyone to the right of this line has made it! Congratulations! Everyone to the left -- bummer, people, sucks to be you." So two people standing right next to each other, holding hands, standing in virtually the exact same spot, nevertheless achieve radically different eternal outcomes.

Nonsense. We talk a lot about life being a test, but the idea that we're reduced to a number and graded on a linear scale is absurd. In the end, we will become what we desire to become. If we have spent our days teaching ourselves to be selfish and petty, we will choose that path 100 times out of 100. If we work to become something better, we will be granted our desires.

[brlenox]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 3:38 PM, Noel T. Batac said:

Concentraiting on the “after all we can do” without the balancing of “we are saved by grace because of our faith in Christ”. It’s an interesting thought.

Perhaps if we expand on the meaning; there are two places in the Book of Mormon this ideology is put forth.  I always anticipate that when I find something that seems incomplete that if I look long enough or hard enough then I will find where scripture explains scripture.  This is one such example where that is very much the case. 

The first example and one most referenced is:

Quote

2 Nephi 25:23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

This verse contributes meaning to the above and is found in:

Quote

Alma 24:11

11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

The essence is that it will take "all we can do" to repent of our sins for it is by repentance that we are "reconciled unto God" (2 Nephi 25:23) and repentance is the requirement to "take away our stain" (Alma 24:11).  In other words the process of overcoming the natural man, full of sin and wickedness takes a full and complete effort in order to put ourselves in a position to receive God's greatest blessings. The ideology is not about works and earning a place, only in that we will be changing our performances to do more of the works of Christ as a natural out pouring of our conversion which is initiated and maintained by ongoing repentance. These efforts then allow the Grace of God to be manifest in our behalf.

Edited November 29, 2017 by brlenox
To do all that I could do...

[wenglund]

39 minutes ago, Vort said:

I agree with @wenglund. The very question about whether we will "make it" betrays a false concept of what we're trying to accomplish in this life and how God judges us. It's as if God is going to draw a line and say, "Everyone to the right of this line has made it! Congratulations! Everyone to the left -- bummer, people, sucks to be you." So two people standing right next to each other, holding hands, standing in virtually the exact same spot, nevertheless achieve radically different eternal outcomes.

Nonsense. We talk a lot about life being a test, but the idea that we're reduced to a number and graded on a linear scale is absurd. In the end, we will become what we desire to become. If we have spent our days teaching ourselves to be selfish and petty, we will choose that path 100 times out of 100. If we work to become something better, we will be granted our desires.

Well said.

Not to belabor the point, but I like to hike and mountain bike. Yet, I don't much enjoy going with people who are almost exclusively intent on racing up and getting to the top or end destination, because I prefer to periodically track my progress on a GPS, stop and smell the flowers, take pictures along the way, meander into interesting side-tracks, take advantage of view-points at various elevations, converse and play with fellow travelers (particularly children), etc.

This way, if for whatever reason I don't "make it" to the top or the end--whcih has happened on several occasions, I still feel blessed and enriched, rather than cursed and dejected.

Not surprising, but I approach my gospel journey the same way. I am thoroughly enjoying the "climb," and I feel all the better for it, and am not much concerned at this point about "making it."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Noel T. Batac]

It’s more of a sentiment; how this gospel journey affects our thinking on a daily basis. 

Seeing we do not know exactly where we’re at and there’s no scorebored to refer to, all is taken in faith. 

But there are these instances where disciples declared for sure that they have kept the fight, that they will see us in the judgment bar with clean conscience, etc. And it all sounds good to me by the way.

They don’t seem, they’re dead sure! Maybe it has something to do with the doctrine of election made sure. And I’m not inclined to dig deeper either. Because I can’t or I’m not supposed to.

But if some of us do have the same sentiment of wanting to know our status with the Lord (just like the prophet Joseph when it has been awhile he doesn’t get celestial updates), this discussion may shed some light for another step closer to what we’re looking for...

 

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, Noel T. Batac said:

But there are these instances where disciples declared for sure that they have kept the fight, that they will see us in the judgment bar with clean conscience, etc. And it all sounds good to me by the way.

If you want to know that about your own self, all you need to do is ask God.  He will tell you.   I have.