How many Gods DO we believe in?

[prisonchaplain]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We believe in one God in whom we worship and that is our Father in heaven.

We've discussed this here before, so I want to make sure I've understood correctly...It is appropriate to worship Jesus, yes? After all, He is the begotten Son of God the Father, He is worshipped by angels, He responds favorably to Thomas' worship ('My Lord and my God...'), and He is within the LDS Godhead.  Or, have I got it wrong, and only the Father receives worship?

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

We've discussed this here before, so I want to make sure I've understood correctly...It is appropriate to worship Jesus, yes? After all, He is the begotten Son of God the Father, He is worshipped by angels, He responds favorably to Thomas' worship ('My Lord and my God...'), and He is within the LDS Godhead.  Or, have I got it wrong, and only the Father receives worship?

The Father and the Son are ONE.  It is impossible to honor one without honoring the other.  Now, we also acknowledge that Christ Himself tells us to pray to the Father, and that He bows down to the Father, so that's what we do.

[Midwest LDS]

Agreed with @Jane_Doe. Worshiping Jesus Christ is the most basic aspect of our religion. You can't worship the Father without worshiping the Son and vice versa. John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

[prisonchaplain]

I just did a bit of reading at Jeff Lindsey's site, and he concurs that the Father is the one God, but then says the Godhead is so united as to be the one God. He then makes an interesting assertion (yes, I know that Mr. Lindsey represents himself, not the church--but that he is pretty well respected as an apologist):  He says that all exalted beings will be so united in thought and deed with the Father, that no matter how many there are, there is still only one God and one ultimate Godhead.  He quotes church leaders, and seems to embrace the term monotheist--but with LDS-theology-friendly caveats.

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I just did a bit of reading at Jeff Lindsey's site, and he concurs that the Father is the one God, but then says the Godhead is so united as to be the one God. He then makes an interesting assertion (yes, I know that Mr. Lindsey represents himself, not the church--but that he is pretty well respected as an apologist):  He says that all exalted beings will be so united in thought and deed with the Father, that no matter how many there are, there is still only one God and one ultimate Godhead.  He quotes church leaders, and seems to embrace the term monotheist--but with LDS-theology-friendly caveats.

Thats certainly quite the stretch. Logic stands to reason that when we become gods we become the one "God" that our creations will worship.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I just did a bit of reading at Jeff Lindsey's site, and he concurs that the Father is the one God, but then says the Godhead is so united as to be the one God. He then makes an interesting assertion (yes, I know that Mr. Lindsey represents himself, not the church--but that he is pretty well respected as an apologist):  He says that all exalted beings will be so united in thought and deed with the Father, that no matter how many there are, there is still only one God and one ultimate Godhead.  He quotes church leaders, and seems to embrace the term monotheist--but with LDS-theology-friendly caveats.

Yeah, that's an inferential leap from LDS doctrine that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I think we would do well just sticking to the assertion that there are three beings united in purpose to form one God.

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I just did a bit of reading at Jeff Lindsey's site, and he concurs that the Father is the one God, but then says the Godhead is so united as to be the one God. He then makes an interesting assertion (yes, I know that Mr. Lindsey represents himself, not the church--but that he is pretty well respected as an apologist):  He says that all exalted beings will be so united in thought and deed with the Father, that no matter how many there are, there is still only one God and one ultimate Godhead.  He quotes church leaders, and seems to embrace the term monotheist--but with LDS-theology-friendly caveats.

Jeff Lindsey does a great job explaining LDS beliefs.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm pretty sure the Church of England remains Trinitarian--believing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one God. No?  ... Sorry, I just double-checked your sidebar--you are in New England, and list as being Christian. So, I ask more broadly, are you Trinitarian?

I’m really not sure.  Definitions and labels get lost on me.   I believe that God is the father.  I believe that Jesus Christ is his son.  They are not the same person.  How could they be?  Christ refers to His Father often.  

I’m not sure about the Holy Spirit.  

[Traveler]

One of the big problems we have in understanding scripture is trying to translate from ancient languages and then trying to interpret what we think we have learned.  I do not want to get into a contest of textual criticism – not because I am not willing to discuss such things but it would seem we have experts that, from their comments, appear to be more ignorant than knowledgeable.

The idea of “one” G-d comes to us from ancient Hebrew.  It is interesting that there are two ancient Hebrew words that are both translated into the modern English word “one”.  The two ancient Hebrew words are “ehad” and “yeheed” (please pardon my spelling).  The word “yeheed” is the singular term and is always used to specify the singularity of something.  So if you were to say, “I have one friend” in ancient Hebrew you would use the term “yeheed”.  The ancient Hebrew term “ehad” is the plural use and meaning of the word one.  For example, in scripture, when it says a man and a woman are one flesh – the word “ehad” is used.  This means the uniting of many (plural) in a single cause.

All references in scripture that say “one G-d” use the ancient Hebrew word “ehad”.  There is not a single exception. 

If we want to talk of G-d being the “King” of the kingdom of heaven – those that tout the Trinity have even greater problems – especially with Jesus indicating that he is “one” with the Father and that those that believe in him (Christ) are also one as he and the Father are one – meaning “ehad”.  But in ancient Kingdoms there was a supreme Suzerain (King) that would appoint governors that were also called “king”.  In such case it would be said by any king of the kingdom (including the Suzerain) “I am the supreme ruler and beside me there is no other ruler – or as some like to quote in scripture thinking they know more than they do – “I am G-d and beside me there is no other g-d”.  One example of many misunderstanding this principle is at the trial of Christ when the Jews said, “We have no king but Cezar -  Hmmmmm who then was Herod? 

 

The Traveler

[Midwest LDS]

@Grunt D and C 130:22-23 "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
            23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him"

[zil]

25 minutes ago, Traveler said:

One example...

Wait, is that one example, or one example?

[prisonchaplain]

32 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I’m really not sure.  Definitions and labels get lost on me.   I believe that God is the father.  I believe that Jesus Christ is his son.  They are not the same person.  How could they be?  Christ refers to His Father often.  

I’m not sure about the Holy Spirit.  

Fair enough. I'll give you my very brief understanding of the major different ideas here:

1. Trinity:  The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The three persons are distinct, yet are of one divine nature. They are the one God.

2. LDS Godhead: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The three are completely distinct, but share a divine unity of purpose. The Father receives primary worship, and prayers go mainly to Him. Nevertheless, the three are the one Godhead. (Correct any nuance errors please, friends)

3. Modalism:  Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only God, who serves in all three "modes" or "roles" (the United Pentecostal Church is the main advocate of this doctrine, today).

4. Strict monotheism:  Only the Father is God. Jesus is subordinate, is created, and is, at most, a lesser god. Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Jews, and Unitarians argue for variations of this belief. Some LDS apologists use strict monotheism to say that if the LDS Godhead is deemed polytheistic than so must the Trinity be.

[Traveler]

14 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Fair enough. I'll give you my very brief understanding of the major different ideas here:

1. Trinity:  The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The three persons are distinct, yet are of one divine nature. They are the one God.

2. LDS Godhead: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The three are completely distinct, but share a divine unity of purpose. The Father receives primary worship, and prayers go mainly to Him. Nevertheless, the three are the one Godhead. (Correct any nuance errors please, friends)

3. Modalism:  Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only God, who serves in all three "modes" or "roles" (the United Pentecostal Church is the main advocate of this doctrine, today).

4. Strict monotheism:  Only the Father is God. Jesus is subordinate, is created, and is, at most, a lesser god. Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Jews, and Unitarians argue for variations of this belief. Some LDS apologists use strict monotheism to say that if the LDS Godhead is deemed polytheistic than so must the Trinity be.

John 17  - We human believers are "one" (ehad) with the Father is the same manner and way that Jesus is "one" (ehad) with the Father.

Obviously #2 makes sense to me and is consistant with the ancients that knew enough about G-d to be able to write scripture.

 

The Traveler

[Jane_Doe]

21 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Fair enough. I'll give you my very brief understanding of the major different ideas here:

A pretty good go at it.  I'll try to help clarify a few things, my remarks in underline.

21 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

1. Trinity:  The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The three persons are distinct, yet are of one divine nature united through a shared substance. They are the one God.

2. LDS Godhead: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The three are completely distinct, but are one through unity in purpose, goodness, grace, etc.

3. Modalism:  Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Spirit. They are all the same person.  Jesus is the only God, who serves in all three "modes" or "roles" (the United Pentecostal Church is the main advocate of this doctrine, today).

4. Strict monotheism:  Only the Father is God. Jesus is subordinate, is created, and is, at most, a lesser god. Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Jews, and Unitarians argue for variations of this belief. Some LDS apologists use strict monotheism to say that if the LDS Godhead is deemed polytheistic than so must the Trinity be.

I took out "The Father receives primary worship, and prayers go mainly to Him" under the LDS Godhead label, but because I don't think it's a uniquely LDS thing.  For example, most Trinitarians do as Christ commands by praying to the Father in the name of the Son.

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

@Grunt D and C 130:22-23 "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
            23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him"

Well, Bruce R. McConkie said in Mormon Doctrine regarding the Holy Ghost, ‘In this dispensation, at least, nothing has been revealed as to his origin or destiny; expressions on these matters are both speculative and fruitless’.

What's a bit amusing about that "speculative and fruitless" quote from Bruce is that he spent the good part of a day (even missed his flight because he was so caught up in a conversation on this topic with a friend in Melbourne - he was a mission pres and high councilor etc etc etc there) as the subject of the Holy ghost can get a bit err, intriguing.

See, the Holy Ghost will at some point, be born and receive a body as all who accepted the plan must. Where that is and when that is, is unknown to us. However, this leads to the intriguing part- his role now is as comforter to provide light when the FATHER and the SON are not present. He is neither great architect nor builder nor redeemer, nor judge. The intriguing part is that the Holy Ghost doesn't have a defined role once he receives a body. Is he therefore a part of the Godhead once he receives a body or has his destiny, within the Godhead, been fulfilled ?

Yep, I'm not going to speculate but the scriptures (as far as I know) don't point to any other role for him other than providing light, in this mortal probation, on the work of the father and the son.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Alex

[Midwest LDS]

True (at least as far as I'm aware) @Alex although I would argue that his role in bringing light and truth to us is equally important to the other things the Godhead do. Without the Holy Ghost we would never be able to gain a testimony of the Father and of Jesus Christ. I do like the thought of Him getting a body in the future, because I've loved how His influence has lead me to the Gospel and either kept me on or brought me back to the strait and narrow path throughout my life. (Plus who doesn't love a good McConkie story☺). Suffice it too say I love each of the members of the Godhead for many reasons and I appreciate their different roles. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[Maureen]

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

A pretty good go at it.  I'll try to help clarify a few things, my remarks in underline.

...Trinity:  The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The three persons are distinct, yet are of one divine nature united through a shared substance. They are the one God.

Your addition is a little redundant since "one divine nature" is the same as your eloquent "united through a shared substance".

M.

[prisonchaplain]

10 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

A pretty good go at it.  I'll try to help clarify a few things, my remarks in underline.

I took out "The Father receives primary worship, and prayers go mainly to Him" under the LDS Godhead label, but because I don't think it's a uniquely LDS thing.  For example, most Trinitarians do as Christ commands by praying to the Father in the name of the Son.

It may be that we pray more to Jesus, even in our casual utterances.  "Jesus, help me." "Dear, sweet Jesus!" (said as a call of dependence, rather than an exasperation), Sometimes we'll even call out to the Spirit. "Holy Spirit, come now with peace and your presence . . . "  So, while it's probably true that the Father receives the greatest share of our prayers, we do call out to Jesus more...and we certainly sing adoration to him a lot--especially in contemporary praise and worship music.

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Your addition is a little redundant since "one divine nature" is the same as your eloquent "united through a shared substance".

M.

Not from the LDS viewpoint, so the clarification is necessary. 

[prisonchaplain]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Not from the LDS viewpoint, so the clarification is necessary. 

I agree that in an discussion between LDS and Trinitarians, the clarification is probably necessary--especially since I pushed the similarity by referring to the "divine shared PURPOSE" of LDS belief.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

It may be that we pray more to Jesus, even in our casual utterances.  "Jesus, help me." "Dear, sweet Jesus!" (said as a call of dependence, rather than an exasperation), Sometimes we'll even call out to the Spirit. "Holy Spirit, come now with peace and your presence . . . "  So, while it's probably true that the Father receives the greatest share of our prayers, we do call out to Jesus more...and we certainly sing adoration to him a lot--especially in contemporary praise and worship music.

I think the reason LDS prays to Heavenly Father and not Jesus has more to do with the fact that we are following the Lord's Prayer set out by Jesus in Matthew 6 (where Jesus tells us to pray to our Father in Heaven) more than anything.  As far as whether the Father or Son gets more attention at Church, I would venture to say that Christ gets at least as much attention as God the Father, if not more!  So depending on what your definition of "worship" is (merely praying to vs. praising, talking about, revering, etc.), Mormons do indeed worship the Son a whole, whole lot.

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I agree that in an discussion between LDS and Trinitarians, the clarification is probably necessary--especially since I pushed the similarity by referring to the "divine shared PURPOSE" of LDS belief.

It's necessary because in LDS-ese "divine nature" are the Christ-like qualities we all have which are to be nurtured/grown in our walk with Christ.  Things like love, patience, forgiving, righteousness.  Ultimately we will be like Christ and 100% share these qualities / divine nature.  They will be ONE with God, 100%.

From the Trinitarian side*, a person should adopt Christ-like qualities on their walk with Him.  But despite fully sharing this divine nature (speaking from the LDS definition), a person can never be 100% ONE with God because what makes God God is this special substance.

*Caveat here: this is my best understanding of the Trinitarian position.  I really welcome any clarification from a knowledge actual Trinitarian because I am probably misunderstanding something here.

[prisonchaplain]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

 

*Caveat here: this is my best understanding of the Trinitarian position.  I really welcome any clarification from a knowledge actual Trinitarian because I am probably misunderstanding something here.

I think you are spot on. The Spirit resides in us. We Pentecostals even claim to be filled with the Spirit. Nevertheless, while we are immortal, and while we expect to become godlike, you are right that we do not believe we shall ever become what God is. Here is where understanding origins helps. If, as Trinitarians believe, we were created out of nothing, at a point in time, then despite our eternal future, God has an eternal past--so we can't 'catch up.' If we do have that eternal past, then exaltation makes greater sense.

[Jane_Doe]

5 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I think you are spot on. The Spirit resides in us. We Pentecostals even claim to be filled with the Spirit. Nevertheless, while we are immortal, and while we expect to become godlike, you are right that we do not believe we shall ever become what God is. Here is where understanding origins helps. If, as Trinitarians believe, we were created out of nothing, at a point in time, then despite our eternal future, God has an eternal past--so we can't 'catch up.' If we do have that eternal past, then exaltation makes greater sense.

So... would you define this special substance as "wisdom from aging" or something like that?     Admittedly, I've never really understood what Trinitarians are defining as this special substance.      

From the LDS standpoint, 'age' doesn't really factor into thought... it's kind of strikes me as "my infinity is greater than your infinity" thing.

[wenglund]

7 hours ago, Grunt said:

Now I'm REALLY confused.  I accept that the Godhead is three distinct beings, but I have difficulty (and have never heard) anything about all three being God.  There is one God.  His Son, Jesus Christ, is just that:  His Son.  I don't particularly have a "puzzle fit" for the Holy Spirit piece, but I don't understand how the Holy Spirit is God as well.

This is taken from the testimony of the 3 Witnesses: "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."

It echoes what is said in Mormon 7:7: "....unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are ^fone God,"

As for Christ, himself, being God and one God, there is JST of 1Tim 2:4: "Who is willing to have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth which is in Christ Jesus, who is the Only Begotten Son of God, and ordained to be a Mediator between God and man; who is one God, and hath power over all men."

And, Mosiah 15:1-4: "1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth."

Again, the terms "one" and "God" have multiple connotations.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-