How many Gods DO we believe in?

[Grunt]

dupe

Edited December 2, 2017 by Grunt

[Grunt]

9 minutes ago, bytebear said:

God the Father is the creator of the spiritual universe (including our spirits).  Jesus/Jehovah is the creator of the physical universe.

You believe Jesus created Adam and Eve?   I don’t believe that.  

[bytebear]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

But words MEAN something.  If doctrine is one with scripture, the words need to be defined.   When they aren’t we are just discussing theory or opinions.  

The more I study the more I start to think Mormonism has a very narrow baseline of doctrine.  The rest is branches of theory and suppositions based on undefined or unanswered scripture or revelation.  People state and defend these branches as doctrine and I can’t tell the difference.  

Article of Faith #9

We believe all that God has revealed, all that [H]e does now reveal, and we believe that [H]e will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the [K]ingdom of God.

In other words, we don't claim to know it all, and we will continue to learn.

[bytebear]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You believe that Jesus created Adam and Eve?

No, Jesus created the physical world, organized it and prepared it.  God the Father created their spirits, and all spirits, and when the Earth was finished, the Father created Adam's body from the dust of the Earth, and breathed Adam's spirit into it.

[Grunt]

I’m out for now.  This has far surpassed my current understanding and belief.  

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

But words MEAN something.  If doctrine is one with scripture, the words need to be defined.   When they aren’t we are just discussing theory or opinions.  

The more I study the more I start to think Mormonism has a very narrow baseline of doctrine.  The rest is branches of theory and suppositions based on undefined or unanswered scripture or revelation.  People state and defend these branches as doctrine and I can’t tell the difference.  

Mormon theology contains everything and more that you need to know and do in order to access exhaltation if you so choose. Nothing more is needed.

Edited December 3, 2017 by askandanswer

[bytebear]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

I’m out for now.  This has far surpassed my current understanding and belief.  

You dove right into the deep end.  Don't worry, you'll be fine.  The book Jesus the Christ is the most comprehensive book on the role and life of the Savior.  It's deep even within LDS Circles.  It was written by Apostle James E. Talmage, who was given a special room in the Salt Lake Temple, set aside specifically for him to write it.  So, yes, you ran into some deep stuff.  Don't be scared.

[Blossom76]

7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Correct.  We follow what Christ tells us to do: pray to the Father in the name of the Son.

They had not yet be instructed otherwise.  And note: the Father and Son are ONE.  It's impossible to honor one without honoring the other.

But praying to the God in Jesus' name is not the same thing as praying to Jesus as the OT prophets did. And if it was good enough for the prophets of the Old Testament then why not in today's time?

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

But praying to the God in Jesus' name is not the same thing as praying to Jesus as the OT prophets did. And if it was good enough for the prophets of the Old Testament then why not in today's time?

(Note: this is all my thoughts, @zil has some different thoughts which are well reasoned)

God reveals things to us (humanity) piece by piece, because that's how we learn.  OT people had less revealed, and had many different practices (in regards to many things, not just prayer).  God revealed more, practices changed.   In the example of prayer, Christ told us in the Lord's Prayer to pray to the Father in the name of the Son. 

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Note: this is all my thoughts, @zil has some different thoughts which are well reasoned)

God reveals things to us (humanity) piece by piece, because that's how we learn.  OT people had less revealed, and had many different practices (in regards to many things, not just prayer).  God revealed more, practices changed.   In the example of prayer, Christ told us in the Lord's Prayer to pray to the Father in the name of the Son. 

Regardless of what the people did in OT times, the bit in bold is the most important piece - Christ tells us to pray to God in the name of Christ, so that's what we do.

[Grunt]

5 hours ago, person0 said:

I haven't been posting for a month or so since starting the home building process and growing my family to now having 5 children instead of two.  However, I notice you using the word 'we' in reference to Mormons.  Did I miss your baptismal announcement?  If so, Congratulations!  Either way, it's nice to see you considering yourself one of us.

 

3

I'm not baptized.  Sorry, I didn't mean to allude otherwise.

[Blossom76]

7 hours ago, Grunt said:

But words MEAN something.  If doctrine is one with scripture, the words need to be defined.   When they aren’t we are just discussing theory or opinions.  

The more I study the more I start to think Mormonism has a very narrow baseline of doctrine.  The rest is branches of theory and suppositions based on undefined or unanswered scripture or revelation.  People state and defend these branches as doctrine and I can’t tell the difference.  

I have to say I agree with this.  I have not studied nearly as much as you have, but it seems the more questions I have, the more I don't get a direct answer that can be backed up either by scripture or by official doctrine.  It's confusing, and not something I am used to or comfortable with. 

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

But words MEAN something.  If doctrine is one with scripture, the words need to be defined.   When they aren’t we are just discussing theory or opinions.  

The more I study the more I start to think Mormonism has a very narrow baseline of doctrine.  The rest is branches of theory and suppositions based on undefined or unanswered scripture or revelation.  People state and defend these branches as doctrine and I can’t tell the difference.  

dupe

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

I have to say I agree with this.  I have not studied nearly as much as you have, but it seems the more questions I have, the more I don't get a direct answer that can be backed up either by scripture or by official doctrine.  It's confusing, and not something I am used to or comfortable with. 

Do what @Grunt is doing - study, ponder, pray for confirmation about what you are studying and pondering about, then persist.

You and @Grunt have both raised an interesting point and its one that I haven't thought about much before - the "narrowness" of Mormon doctrine. Perhaps the "official" doctrine goes no further than what we need to know and do in order to be saved, and all the rest might be a mixture of unofficial doctrine, official policies, history, culture and tradition. Interesting thought for me to ponder over.

Edited December 3, 2017 by askandanswer

[zil]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

... it seems the more questions I have, the more I don't get a direct answer that can be backed up either by scripture or by official doctrine.  It's confusing, and not something I am used to or comfortable with. 

I think this is a perception issue rather than a reality issue.  (Bear with me - it will take  a while to explain that, and in no way does it imply that there's anything wrong with your perception or anyone else's.)  Sorry for the length.

1) The "normal" experience of investigators is to listen to the missionary discussions, read the Book of Mormon, pray for a witness that it's true, and either not receive that witness (in which case, they cease that sort of interaction with missionaries and members), or they receive the witness, are baptized, and learn slowly (probably over multiple years, and with the help of that baptismal covenant and the gift of the Holy Ghost), the sorts of things you and @Grunt are looking to understand before deciding whether to join.  But you are doing it without the benefit of that initial conviction, covenant, and gift.

2) No church, no faith, can be proved.  Not through logic, not through science, not through interpretation, not through anything.  Faith is not meant to be proved (because then it's not faith).  It is something we choose to believe, and truth is something the Holy Ghost testifies of (and either we receive that witness - because we're ready and willing - or we don't - because we're not ready, or not willing (and lest you think that is criticism, this is true of all of us, no matter how long we have been trying to follow the Savior's teachings - we come to understand them gradually, when we're ready to give up our sins, or when we're ready to sacrifice more to do His will)).  For this reason, the approach used by missionaries is that described above, rather than one of studying a logical sequence of proofs or arguments.

3) Perhaps for the above reasons, perhaps for those and many others, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't have a single, central (mammoth) book which contains (and to which is added) a list of "things we believe" like some sort of dictionary where you can look up something and get everything we believe about it.  But our beliefs are written.  They are written in scripture.  They are written in talks by prophets and apostles.  They are written in lesson manuals (which draw from those sources).  Thus, they are written, and can be shown, but not from one central "This is the start and end of our doctrine" type book - especially since we believe in on-going revelation, so that there is no end.  This also means that it takes longer for a member to go find and compile a collection of writings which speak to the issue at hand - and those sources may or may not touch directly or in detail on the topic at hand, but rather just mention it or one of many aspects of it.  (And frankly, humans are lazy, and few of us - if any - try to compile an index so that we can quickly and easily dig up citations for some Church teaching - we should probably do better at that, but I wouldn't hold my breath. )  IMO, if an investigator needs to see documentation, they should ask for it clearly, and be willing to wait, as it will take time to compile (and not everyone will be able to compile documentation on everything, since we're all at different stages of understanding and interest).

4) Just like the parables of the New Testament show, the Lord teaches line upon line, precept upon precept.  He speaks to the understanding of man (see D&C 50:10-12).  But one person's understanding will differ from another person's - just like in the New Testament when the disciples understood Christ's parables, but the Pharisees didn't.   Further, the application of truth will vary from person to person - a parent will see in scripture lessons to help them be a parent, a single person may not even recognize that such a lesson is there to be found.  Therefore, when you ask each of them what the Church teaches, you could get answers which seem different, and yet both are true and they don't disagree with each other - to someone who has learned enough to know that they don't disagree.

5) Which brings up another point - when you only know some, and not all, and especially when you are prone to doubt some, things may sound conflicting when they are not - because the people doing the explaining are coming from different perspectives and can't throw in every little thing.  I have often said, even to fellow members, that you cannot take an isolated verse of scripture and use it in isolation to "prove" some truth.  If your "proof" conflicts with other verses of scripture, then chances are either that you are wrong or that there are multiple interpretations (or lessons) in that verse.  This is why we study the scriptures every Sunday, along with the words of latter-day prophets, and why we teach personal scripture study is vital - we want everyone to study from the first verse of the first chapter of Genesis to the last word of the 13th Article of Faith (that's the order in which things appear in our scriptures from start to end).

6) Interpretation.  This is huge.  Our interpretation of scripture is based on the combination of all scripture and the teachings of latter-day prophets.  If one would understand what we believe, one must be willing to consider that the interpretation of some Bible verse changes when we add the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and words of latter-day prophets into the pool of understanding.  If one cannot let go of interpretations which conflict with those that come from this expanded set of scriptures and teachings, then one will never agree with the LDS Church's teachings.  That said, lest anyone think we're just making up nonsense, it is my opinion and experience that every difference of opinion on the meaning of scriptures is fully logical when looking simply at the scriptures (start to end), without the interpretations men have made over the centuries since Christ's death.  In other words, if you use just the written words, various possible meanings can easily be seen.  But it seems to be very hard to consider the words in isolation.

All of this is, no doubt, extremely frustrating for someone who wants to do a sort of factual, complete study of everything the Church teaches, complete with citations and references.  If you want to do that, it's there, but this is what members spend a lifetime (literally, our entire lives) studying.  If your goal is to study it all before deciding whether to join, well, you'll be joining after mortality, if at all, because you'll never finish before death.

I stay in the Church because, despite my ignorance of so many things, I have an undeniable testimony that it is Christ's church, and that its teachings are true.  I will never reach the level of understanding many others have reached, but that doesn't matter - I know, though the witness of the Holy Ghost, that even the things I don't know yet are true, and that's enough to keep going.

[Blossom76]

1 hour ago, zil said:

 

1) The "normal" experience of investigators is to listen to the missionary discussions, read the Book of Mormon, pray for a witness that it's true, and either not receive that witness (in which case, they cease that sort of interaction with missionaries and members), or they receive the witness, are baptized, and learn slowly (probably over multiple years, and with the help of that baptismal covenant and the gift of the Holy Ghost), the sorts of things you and @Grunt are looking to understand before deciding whether to join.  But you are doing it without the benefit of that initial conviction, covenant, and gift.

I do not think this is an ideal way to change ones life and enter a religion, it almost feels to me like the LDS church is hiding its beliefs from new prospective members.  I think it's important to know exactly what it is you will be expected to believe in before you dedicate your life to believing it.  It just sounds ridiculous to me.  And I have been baptised and have the gift of the Holy Ghost, I also have an intellect and the thought of agreeing to something before you even know what it is - well that's not sounding very intelligent.  What if you find out something in 3 years time that you can't possibly live with?

If someone wanted to convert to my faith, they have to attend classes and study for a year to make sure they know what they are getting into and what is expected of them - nothing is hidden or saved for a later date when you have more faith or have received certain sacraments.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I do not think this is an ideal way to change ones life and enter a religion, it almost feels to me like the LDS church is hiding its beliefs from new prospective members.  I think it's important to know exactly what it is you will be expected to believe in before you dedicate your life to believing it.  It just sounds ridiculous to me.  And I have been baptised and have the gift of the Holy Ghost, I also have an intellect and the thought of agreeing to something before you even know what it is - well that's not sounding very intelligent.  What if you find out something in 3 years time that you can't possibly live with?

If someone wanted to convert to my faith, they have to attend classes and study for a year to make sure they know what they are getting into and what is expected of them - nothing is hidden or saved for a later date when you have more faith or have received certain sacraments.

I understand, and I wasn't trying to say that's the only way, nor that there was anything wrong with another way.  I was trying to point out why there might be additional struggles as you go through this process in your way, requiring more patience (than another person might need) as you try to learn more; and that when you seem to hit a brick wall, it may not be as insurmountable as it first appears.

As for your assessment of the "norm" - it may not be the right way for you, but it has been the right way for tens of thousands, if not many more.  Each of us learns spiritual matters in our own way.  I respect everyone's right to come to spiritual truth however it is that they need to come to it.

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I do not think this is an ideal way to change ones life and enter a religion, it almost feels to me like the LDS church is hiding its beliefs from new prospective members.  I think it's important to know exactly what it is you will be expected to believe in before you dedicate your life to believing it.  It just sounds ridiculous to me.  And I have been baptised and have the gift of the Holy Ghost, I also have an intellect and the thought of agreeing to something before you even know what it is - well that's not sounding very intelligent.  What if you find out something in 3 years time that you can't possibly live with?

If someone wanted to convert to my faith, they have to attend classes and study for a year to make sure they know what they are getting into and what is expected of them - nothing is hidden or saved for a later date when you have more faith or have received certain sacraments.

It does seem ridiculous to the worldly mind.  But it appears that God feels differently.  In the scriptures he says he will give line upon line, here a little there.  Proving a person in the small things before unfolding the mysteries.  And some of his mysteries are going to be hard for us.  Maybe some of his mysteries are going to be more then we are willing to accept.  When that happens when they are willing to look God in the eye and say enough, then they are done, they have gotten all that they are willing to receive from God.

All the questions about God and his nature and all that are big complex issues which can take life time to fully understand line upon line.  The more important question... the question you really need to answer first... is do you trust the source?  Until you answer that question its like trying to learn quantum physics without knowing for sure that your teacher does.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

  The more important question... the question you really need to answer first... is do you trust the source?  Until you answer that question its like trying to learn quantum physics without knowing for sure that your teacher does.

One of my high school teachers used to say "Trust but verify". The famous quote Reagan had about the Soviets. 

[Jane_Doe]

50 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I do not think this is an ideal way to change ones life and enter a religion, it almost feels to me like the LDS church is hiding its beliefs from new prospective members.  I think it's important to know exactly what it is you will be expected to believe in before you dedicate your life to believing it.  It just sounds ridiculous to me.  And I have been baptised and have the gift of the Holy Ghost, I also have an intellect and the thought of agreeing to something before you even know what it is - well that's not sounding very intelligent.  

I think the key word here is "know".  There's "knowing" as in listing off facts, and "knowing" in having a conviction/testimony of something.  

"Knowing" in having a conviction/testimony of the Truthfulness is essential and we LDS folks hit on that from day 1 till forever.  This type of knowing can come early, but should never stop growing.  It's an essential core of faith- to know that Father is there and loves you.  To know that Christ dies for you and is your Savior.  And many more.

"Knowing" as in listing facts.  We certainly do that a lot too!  We talk about things, answer any question, study, etc.  We do that from day 1 too, and going to keep doing it forever, especially as God is still revealing things to us individually and as a whole.  And frankly, a lot of the facts about God/life we're not going to understand right now (like quantum mechanics for a random example).  

And then there's also other types of "knowing" that come from like doing to. 

50 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

What if you find out something in 3 years time that you can't possibly live with?

What fact could trump knowing your Father loves you and Christ is your Savior?  

Yes, there's points each person runs into something that's hard for us to understand intellectuality.  We each run into them more than once-- my latest personal example is yesterday finding out my work-out-a-holic seemingly in perfect health husband is extremely diabetic.  Yes, I didn't get it intellectually and I throw a "I'm mad at you God!" tantrum for a while-- I don't know why (listing facts way) this happened.  But I do know (convection wise), that God is in control and He told me all things work out for our good.  So I got to let him take the reins and trust Him.  That's not to say I'm not going to keep learning and trying to understand intellectually too (cause I am), but there's more to know than me listing facts.

50 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

If someone wanted to convert to my faith, they have to attend classes and study for a year to make sure they know what they are getting into 

Finishing RCIA gets a person through with Catholicism 101.  There's still 102 and a million more studies to do.  As someone who spent years studying Catholicism, it's also an confusing and (seemingly) conflicting faith when you dig into it.  Only atet time and more pondering/study do things start to make more sense.  And even after a hypothetical person reads everything from every council, every saint, every pope, etc, there are still things that they're not going to be able to understand because they're a mystery.

50 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

nothing is hidden or saved for a later date when you have more faith or have received certain sacraments.

We're not hiding anything here.  

Edited December 3, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

We're not hiding anything here.  

I agree you aren't, but sometimes to a convert/investigator it can seem like the church is. Just because there is so much information and some of us are from the "I need to know everything" school. Again, just to be clear-no one is hiding anything. But sometimes it can seem like it. 

[Jane_Doe]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I agree you aren't, but sometimes to a convert/investigator it can seem like the church is. Just because there is so much information and some of us are from the "I need to know everything" school. Again, just to be clear-no one is hiding anything. But sometimes it can seem like it. 

I get that 100%, and apologize if I was seeming insensitive (which I probably was).  It's just... what is someone to do?  We answer every question, encourage studying, work our butts off to explain things well, etc.  I just don't know what to do here.

(Edit: oh joy, I just may myself another "I don't know (listing facts-wise)" thing.)

Edited December 3, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I get that 100%, and apologize if I was seeming insensitive (which I probably was).  It's just... what is someone to do?  We answer every question, encourage studying, work our butts off to explain things well, etc.  I just don't know what to do here.

I obviously don't know you from anywhere but here (and you won't even accept my FB friend request. OUCH!) but I would never accuse you of being insensitive. I agree 100% that everyone here does their best to bend over backwards and explain everything, encourage studying, everything. 

I appreciate your understanding @Jane_Doe. I was afraid that it would have been misread and someone would view it as an attack on lifelong members, which it isn't. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by MormonGator

[Jane_Doe]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I obviously don't know you from anywhere but here (and you won't even accept my FB friend request. OUCH!) but I would never accuse you of being insensitive. I agree 100% that everyone here does their best to bend over backwards and explain everything, encourage studying, everything. 

I appreciate your understanding @Jane_Doe. I was afraid that it would have been misread and someone would view it as an attack on lifelong members, which it isn't. 

You're find Gater, do worries.  You had a valid point.   It's important to see things from both sides-- I should know that, and it's great to have a friend remind me of it.

[bytebear]

I do want to make it clear that no one is baptized without knowledge of what is expected of them as a member.  You are asked to commit to attend church, tithe, obey the law of chastity, obey the word of wisdom, etc.  And you are expected to have a testimony of Jesus Christ and the restored Gospel (i.e. accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, the Book of Mormon, etc.).

No where in the church are those commitments changed.  The manifestation of them may change, with higher callings (i.e a bishop has a higher expectation to keep the commandments more than a teenager).  But the initial commitment and the commandments themselves are unchanged, although, I suppose they could warn you about callings. But even then, you can turn down any and all callings.

The missionaries simply don't have time to teach all the nuanced doctrines of the church.  They teach you what you need to gain a testimony and what you need to do to keep God's commandments.  There is a lesson on the Plan of Salvation which goes over this stuff generally, but not in the detail we have discussed here.  It's just too much to cover in a one hour lesson. 

And, although it's not a requirement to cover all of this before baptism, none of this is hidden from anyone.  All church publications and manuals are online from milk to meat. Here, for example, are the missionary discussions, in case you want a leg up on what they teach.

https://www.lds.org/manual/missionary?lang=eng

Edited December 3, 2017 by bytebear