How many Gods DO we believe in?

[Grunt]

14 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

You're going to get what you need most through prayer and the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, rather than study, although study helps a lot. I can't help wondering if you haven't already received what you need through prayer and the Holy Ghost, but just haven't quite acted on it yet or responded to it in the preferred manner? 

Maybe.  Maybe I'm duller than others.  I agree that the inspiration comes from the Holy Ghost, but my PERSONAL experience has been the Spirit speaks to me while I'm studying, or more often, talking to the missionaries.  Maybe that's why I stalk them so often and in so many different places.  I need to have a basis for my discussion and prayer, hence the study first.  Then I talk through the roadblocks with someone until I receive inspiration or (more often) just come to accept.  I frustrated the Sisters last night so we tabled our discussion.  They said maybe this is something I need to stick a pin in for later, but I can't do that at this time.  

[askandanswer]

Absolutely delightful, and I say this in all sincerity! Thank you for sharing this, I feel somewhat relieved that you are taking such a thorough approach. I think its great that you understand already how the Spirit speaks to you. To me, that really shows the depth and sincerity of your seeking. For what its worth, that is also how the Spirit speaks to me a lot (but not all) of the time - as ideas that come into my mind while reading and pondering. I suspect it is the same for many other members of this forum as well. This approach closely mirrors the approach first revealed to Joseph Smith in  April 1829 as recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 9:7 - 9)
7  Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8  But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9  But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

This revelation was given specifically to Oliver Cowdery in response to a very specific set of circumstances. It doesn't always work the same way every time for every person but its still a very good guide.

[zil]

5 hours ago, Grunt said:

Since most of the doctrine to support this belief is from revelation

Please note that all doctrine comes from revelation.  Even the writings of the new testament which relate experiences (in some cases, and explain doctrine in other cases) were, I believe, revealed to the writer as the things he should recount.  The entire Book of Mormon is an instance of one man (Mormon) compiling, as instructed through revelation, previous revelations recorded by previous prophets.

5 hours ago, Grunt said:

I really do value what you all post and I honestly note most of it then reference and research it.  It just takes awhile.

As it should - you have a family, a job, an elected office (right, still?), and a personal life to live.  And what you're studying is no trivial matter - it deserves time.  FYI, from where I sit, you're racing (not going too fast, just going fast - it's rare to see someone so determined to learn and understand at this pace).  You are studying things which many life-long members don't get around to until well into adulthood.

5 hours ago, Grunt said:

I don't want you folks to think that I don't appreciate the time you take to reference and respond.

Nothing about you and your interactions here would ever give that impression - quite the opposite.  From my perspective, it's a pleasure having you on these forums!  I'm enjoying (and impressed by) this journey you're on.

Edited December 1, 2017 by zil

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Grunt said:

I just called the missionaries on this and had a good talk.  It came to a stalemate, though.  They said that there was doctrine that established we will become Gods, but they are looking it up to send me.  Someone else said the true doctrine was "exalted" with no further explanation and the rest is supposed, then THAT I can accept.   If the doctrine is we will become Gods, then that is something I would need to read the doctrine on and ponder.

I was the one that used the term "exalted".  I did not say that we had no scriptures about becoming "gods".  We do.  But I find that to be non-specific language.  And it has shown itself to be confusing or even misleading to those unfamiliar with the doctrine, as you have been.

I use the term "exalted" because it doesn't come with the baggage that a common word like "god" does.  I honestly believe that many Mormons misunderstand the term and project meanings onto it because of the usage of the word "god".  Exalted is a much more technically accurate word to describe the doctrine.

But for now just think whatever you can get your head around.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So then, why does the Holy Ghost need to be in spirit form and not in body form if its just his "influence" thats within us?

Again, this has to do with the difference between the Power vs. Gift.

Please look it up.  If not, I'll get back to it at some point.  Today, I'm fairly busy.

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Again, this has to do with the difference between the Power vs. Gift.

Please look it up.  If not, I'll get back to it at some point.  Today, I'm fairly busy.

Not sure where you are going. The gift of the HG as understood by LDS (the seminary answer) is the constant companionship of the spirit. With further reading, the gift is more than that though, it gives one the power to speak with the tongue of angels and also other spiritual gifts.

[bytebear]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Absolutely delightful, and I say this in all sincerity! Thank you for sharing this, I feel somewhat relieved that you are taking such a thorough approach. I think its great that you understand already how the Spirit speaks to you. To me, that really shows the depth and sincerity of your seeking. For what its worth, that is also how the Spirit speaks to me a lot (but not all) of the time - as ideas that come into my mind while reading and pondering. I suspect it is the same for many other members of this forum as well. This approach closely mirrors the approach first revealed to Joseph Smith in  April 1829 as recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 9:7 - 9)
7  Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8  But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9  But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

This revelation was given specifically to Oliver Cowdery in response to a very specific set of circumstances. It doesn't always work the same way every time for every person but its still a very good guide.

I think my biggest take on this is that asking God "What should I do?" will not help as much as studying the issue, formulating your ideas, and the specifically asking about your conclusions.  I.,e. "I've studied the issue, I have my conclusions.  Are my conclusions right?"   This, by the way, has worked for me in all aspects of my life.  "Should I take this job?"  "Should I buy this house?"  "Is this the right decision?"   I've had more occasions where I have gotten a negative answer, a feeling of "NO!"  It's almost like when you see in the scary movie, the character about to open that door, and you're screaming at them to turn around and run.  Other times, it's just me thinking about a decision and being apprehensive about it, and my body gets warm and tingly, and I get a feeling of anticipation and excitement, like I just know the future's going to be awesome if I take the leap of faith.

Edited December 1, 2017 by bytebear

[bytebear]

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

It's harder now since I'm moving past what I consider "the basics".

The Bible describes this as "milk before meat"  And God teaches "line upon line, precept upon precept" (https://www.lds.org/search?q=line+upon+line&lang=eng&domains=scriptures), meaning he teaches you addition and subtraction before multiplication and division.  Eventually we understand calculus.  And there's nothing wrong with diving into deep waters, just don't think the water is bad because you start floundering.

It's also probably why the missionaries get frustrated.  They aren't trained to teach the meat.  Sunday School is more for the meat, and even further.  There's a reason the church restricts temple access for a year.  It gives you time to study up, to become accustom to living as a Latter-day Saint, and to experience the Gift of the Holy Ghost (given after baptism).   Some spiritual gifts require covenant.

So, the missionaries job is to make you recognize the influence of the Holy Ghost, and to recognize answers from God, and to teach the basics required to make that first covenant of baptism.  And the baptism interview does not require anything beyond the basics, which is really just a belief in Jesus Christ and that this is His church and a willingness to obey His commandments.

 

1 Corinthians 3:2

2 I have fed you with ^amilk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:12-14

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of ^amilk, and not of strong meat.

Edited December 1, 2017 by bytebear

[wenglund]

On 11/30/2017 at 10:56 AM, Grunt said:

Thanks!   At this point in my journey, I don’t really believe that.  I’ll research it more.  

Asking a slightly different question than Carborendum, do you believe you are a child of God? If so, do you believe your Heavenly Father may enable you to grow up to become like Him? Do you believe we may be joint heirs with our elder brother, Christ, and inherit all that is the Father's, thus becoming Kings and Lords and Priests (or the female equivalent thereof)?

When I am feeling insufficiently intelligent to understand certain LDS notions, it helps me to view them in simpler terms, such as likening them to things on earth, having faith that many things on earth are type and shadow (reflection) of things in heaven, if not directly related to things in heaven.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

Maybe.  Maybe I'm duller than others.  I agree that the inspiration comes from the Holy Ghost, but my PERSONAL experience has been the Spirit speaks to me while I'm studying, or more often, talking to the missionaries.  Maybe that's why I stalk them so often and in so many different places.  I need to have a basis for my discussion and prayer, hence the study first.  Then I talk through the roadblocks with someone until I receive inspiration or (more often) just come to accept.  I frustrated the Sisters last night so we tabled our discussion.  They said maybe this is something I need to stick a pin in for later, but I can't do that at this time.  

In addition to study and prayer, I believe it is necessary for we humans to act on the WORD. Ostensive or instructional learning can only take us so far, and certainly not as far as personal experience. To come to a full understanding of God requires doing what he has done and becoming like Him. At the most fundamental or essential level, and as hinted in my previous post, this may occur through our becoming fathers and mothers, ourselves.

Think of the word "man" as similar to the word "God". One may ask,how many man are there? Well, the multi-billion people born an earth may all be numbered under the generic title of "man." Okay, but how many man do we worship? Well, while there are celebrity and powerful man that some may worship, to we LDS there is but one man, Jesus Chrsit, and one Man, the Father, whom we worship. 

Does that help?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Grunt]

I did quite a bit of reading on my 5 hour flight.  

Help me with this:

Not everyone becomes a God.  Others become angels.  If you make it to the Celestial, you can still progress within that, but if you don't, you're stuck where you're at.

I also read something (I'll try to remember where, you can read a lot in 5 hours) that said God assembled other gods to lay out his plan.  

If there are multiple gods, and some of us become gods, then why aren't Mormons considered polytheistic?  We worship both God and Christ but not the rest, and Christ is a god, then wouldn't that stand to reason?

[Grunt]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I was the one that used the term "exalted".  I did not say that we had no scriptures about becoming "gods".  We do.  But I find that to be non-specific language.  And it has shown itself to be confusing or even misleading to those unfamiliar with the doctrine, as you have been.

I use the term "exalted" because it doesn't come with the baggage that a common word like "god" does.  I honestly believe that many Mormons misunderstand the term and project meanings onto it because of the usage of the word "god".  Exalted is a much more technically accurate word to describe the doctrine.

But for now just think whatever you can get your head around.

As I mentioned above, I read quite a bit today.  There is a LOT of scripture regarding the plan for salvation, most of it (that I found) in the D&C and other items in essays and conference talks.

I need to write my thoughts down when I get home and organize them, then find a missionary to harass.

[bytebear]

I find the easiest thing to do is replace the word "God" with the word "Family of God" and then replace "gods" with "exalted persons".  And you will see there is one God, but multiple exalted persons that make up God.  The problem is, you are too used to thinking of God as God the Father, or perhaps the Trinity.   And that's true in some cases.  When God assembled with other gods, really what that means is the Godhead organized the Earth, and we all had a role in the plan.   Some just had a more direct role (Michael and Jehovah, specifically). 

Also, you may want to think of what defines someone "a god".  God is one who progresses forever, through his creations.  He constantly makes new worlds, worlds without end.   So, to be "a god" means you have no end, because you are continuing the creation process.   That's what makes God the Father "a god".   But we are also gods right now.  Why?  Because we are still progressing, still creating.  In other words, the definition of godhood is the opposite of damnation.  Until we are restricted, we are gods.  Some of us just will never be restricted.  This fits in to scripture when Jesus rebuffs accusations that he blasphemes by claiming to be the son of God.  They basically accused him of claiming to be God, to which he replied, "Does not your scripture say, Ye are Gods, even the son of the most High?" 

Psalm 82:6

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are ^achildren of the most High.

Isaiah 41:23

23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are ^agods?

Edited December 1, 2017 by bytebear

[Grunt]

The missionaries were very clear, though, that we will become the same as Him and have what He has.  We discussed it for awhile, then they said they wanted to go back and study before discussing further.  

[wenglund]

40 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I did quite a bit of reading on my 5 hour flight.  

Help me with this:

Not everyone becomes a God.  Others become angels.  If you make it to the Celestial, you can still progress within that, but if you don't, you're stuck where you're at.

I also read something (I'll try to remember where, you can read a lot in 5 hours) that said God assembled other gods to lay out his plan.  

If there are multiple gods, and some of us become gods, then why aren't Mormons considered polytheistic?  We worship both God and Christ but not the rest, and Christ is a god, then wouldn't that stand to reason?

The questions you have presented here are not entirely dissimilar to those asked of and by the mortal Christ on at least two occasions. I have found his answer and question illuminating. See  Jn 10:22-39 and Mt. 22:41-46.

What do you think?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zil]

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

The missionaries were very clear, though, that we will become the same as Him and have what He has.  We discussed it for awhile, then they said they wanted to go back and study before discussing further.  

Couple things:

1) What He has.  The minute one of us is exalted and gains what God has, God has gotten more than He had - namely an exalted child - but we would not yet have that.  In other words, I believe that our exaltation increased God's glory so  that he still has more than we do, but we have what he did (past tense).

Quote

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.  Rev. 3:21.

...If you sit with Christ in his throne, and Christ is sitting with the Father in his throne, then that seats us in God's throne...

2) From the Bible (but with a correct understanding of meaning), taken from one of the links I posted above:

Quote

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5:48 (3 Ne. 12:48).

when he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3:2.

...If Christ commands us to be perfect, as the Father is perfect, then doesn't that make us (if we attain perfection) like the Father?

Quote

heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, Rom. 8:17.

if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4:7.

Now I suppose you could say that heirs don't always inherit everything, but this says "joint-heirs with Christ".  So, what did Christ inherit?

Quote

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, Matt. 28:18.

given him power over all flesh, John 17:2.

All things are delivered to me of my Father, Luke 10:22.

Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand, John 3:35.

hath he given to the Son to have life in himself, John 5:26.

said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God, John 5:18.

Revelation 21:7

7 He that ^aovercometh shall ^binherit ^call things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my ^dson.

Christ inherited all that the Father has.

3) So, how can Christ have all, and God have all, and exalted beings have all, all at the same time?  Because the various "alls" referred to are limitless - is it possible for you to love your wife without loving your children less?  Of course, because there's not a finite quantity of love which must be divided, some to your wife, some to your children, some to others.  No, there's a limitless quantity, thus allowing you to love all.  If I know something and teach it to you, do I know less?  No, now we both know - if anything, knowledge is increased.  This is the way of eternal things - truth, light, love.

When the scriptures teach that we can inherit what God has, they're not talking about divvying up the furniture when grandpa dies.  They're talking about becoming perfect - about learning all the things God has already learned, about attaining all the characteristics (like mercy, for example) that God has already attained - they are talking about becoming the kind of being that God already is.  Our doing that does not diminish God any more than raising children into good adults diminishes their parents, or training good employees diminishes the employer.

That said, no matter what this "godhood" that we can inherit looks like, it will NOT look like becoming equal with God, not will it mean God is no longer our God.  That relationship will be maintained, and, I think, improved and deepened as we progress - something we can see in our mortality - does not our relationship with God improve, do we not appreciate (worship) him more as we obey and come to understand his ways more?

[wenglund]

49 minutes ago, bytebear said:

I find the easiest thing to do is replace the word "God" with the word "Family of God" and then replace "gods" with "exalted persons". 

That, or replace the word "God" with the word "Father." How many Fathers or fathers are there?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

That, or replace the word "God" with the word "Father." How many Fathers or fathers are there?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I know, but it very specifically says “God”.  Sadly, my search now has me reading “Jesus the Christ”.  This is going to take awhile.  

[bytebear]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I know, but it very specifically says “God”.  Sadly, my search now has me reading “Jesus the Christ”.  This is going to take awhile.  

The word God generally has two connotations.  1) God the Father (or Jehovah acting as the Father) and 2) the collective body of exalted beings. Context is key here.  And it is tricky.  For example, the Bible may say Lord, or God, or it may say Lord God.  And they mean different things.  El, Elohim, Jehovah, all have slightly different meanings in describing God.  And that doesn't even count the various references to pagan gods. 

And I assume you know that we believe that the God of the Old Testament referred to as Jehovah is the pre-mortal spirit of Jesus Christ, acting on behalf of the Father.

Edit to add:  Jesus the Christ is an awesome book.

Edited December 1, 2017 by bytebear

[askandanswer]

@Grunt to question and study as a means of learning and preparing oneself to receive and accept the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Ghost is a great thing, and probably the best way to get a spiritual confirmation of the truth of the gospel. To question and study in order to determine whether one agrees or disagrees with the gospel carries some risks. I encourage you to be aware of your motives and to avoid become one of those of whom Paul spoke in 2^nd Timothy 2:7.

7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 Do you have an endpoint in mind that you will recognise when you reach, and be able to say to yourself I don’t know it all, but I know enough, now its time to act on what I know, or do you have an ever increasing list of questions? How will you know or decide when you know enough?

[Sunday21]

On 2017-11-30 at 2:14 PM, Grunt said:

My brain hurts.  

 

Im not smart enough to be Mormon.  

You are smart enough to be a bishop.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I know, but it very specifically says “God”.  Sadly, my search now has me reading “Jesus the Christ”.  This is going to take awhile.  

Not to discourage you or anything, but at this rate, when you're finally baptized, it's gonna go like this (and I am so totally joking):

1. Baptized
2. Confirmed
3. Sunday morning: given the Aaronic Priesthood
4. Sunday afternoon: given the Melchizedek Priesthood
5. Tuesday: Temple ordinances performed
6. Following Sunday: Sustained as the new Bishop
7. Sunday after that: Sustained as the new Stake President
8. Year later: Seventy
9. Following year: Apostle

[Sunday21]

On 2017-11-30 at 2:30 PM, Carborendum said:

Did you intend to quote a Haiku version of her post?

(sorry, it is an inverse Haiku.  But whatever).

My kids actually write like this.  One of them talks like this. But they are the exception.  When the seminary teacher is not getting a response from anyone, he calls on "someone from the Carb family."  They always have an answer.  My daughter said she didn't feel like it was interesting to her anymore and only went to seminary because it was like Nephi obeying the Law of Moses.  She just goes to try to feel the Spirit.  She isn't really learning anything.

So, we enrolled her in an institute class.  She feels like she's getting something out of it.  But she still doesn't feel challenged.

Still, you may be right.

Funny. This is exactly how I pictured your family to be!

[askandanswer]

On 01/12/2017 at 6:14 AM, Grunt said:

My brain hurts.  

 

Im not smart enough to be Mormon.  

If your intentions remain pure, and if you continue to exercise faith and live worthily, then you have nothing to worry about.

1Nephi 10:19  For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Alma 26:22  Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.
 

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, bytebear said:

And I assume you know that we believe that the God of the Old Testament referred to as Jehovah is the pre-mortal spirit of Jesus Christ, acting on behalf of the Father.

 

 

WHAT!?!?!