Matthew 12:40

[rstrats]

1. The Messiah said that three nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. Of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

4. However, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.

6. In order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.

 

I wonder if anyone looking in knows of any examples to support an assertion of commonality?

Edited December 4, 2017 by rstrats

[Jane_Doe]

If you're asking if I know any Christian faiths that believe Christ wasn't killed on a Friday, laid into a tomb, and rose on Sunday, I do not.  That's a central Christian belief.  The only Christian faith I know that is a little different than that is JW believe Christ died on a stake instead of a cross (aka no crossbar).  

[anatess2]

25 minutes ago, rstrats said:

1. The Messiah said that three nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. Of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

4. However, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.

6. In order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.

 

I wonder if anyone looking in knows of any examples?

Esther 4-5.

In Jewish tradition, the day starts at sundown.  For example, when they observe the Sabbath, they start at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday.  The event that happened that day encompasses the whole day so that it goes like this:

Crucifixion - starts at sundown on what we commonly consider Thursday night and ends at sundown on Friday.
Sabbath - starts at sundown on what we commonly consider Friday night and ends at sundown on Saturday.
Resurrection - starts at sundown on what we commonly consider Saturday night and ends at sundown on Sunday.

So, 3 days and 3 nights starts on Thursday night and ends on Sunday night with the events of the Crucifixion and Resurrection occurring within those 3 days.

[pam]

https://askgramps.org/figured-christ-spent-three-days-tomb/

[MrShorty]

I have seen some hypothesize Wednesday or Thursday dates for the crucifixion, suggesting a "floating Sabbath" (one other than the weekly Saturday Sabbath) occurred on Thursday or Friday. A couple of links:

http://www.gracebiblestudy.net/TheDayThatChristDied.html

http://www.biblelight.net/pasover.htm

I don't know. As one who is trending towards less than literal readings of scripture on a lot of things, my first response to these kinds of questions is to wonder if the scripture we have is a literal, historic record of exact dates and times and such. In the end, these can be interesting discussions, but I find myself content at the end of the day to settle for knowing that Christ suffered and died for my redemption, and was resurrected.

[rstrats]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

re:  "Esther 4-5"

I'm afraid I don't see where the account precludes as least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times.   What do you have in mind?
 

[anatess2]

33 minutes ago, rstrats said:

I'm afraid I don't see where the account precludes as least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times.   What do you have in mind?
 

This is the same usage of three days and nights with the account of the resurrection.  Esther asked her people to fast for her 3 days and nights.  On the 3rd day, she entered the King's house.  If she was to mean 3 days and nights in our common usage today (think cruise lines), then Esther would have entered the King's house on the FOURTH day so that 3 days and nights would have already passed.  But this is not the case.  Esther entered the King's house on the THIRD day.

Edited December 4, 2017 by anatess2

[rstrats]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

If you're asking if I know any Christian faiths that believe Christ wasn't killed on a Friday, laid into a tomb, and rose on Sunday..."

.  

I'm not. 

[rstrats]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

  Esther asked her people to fast for her 3 days and nights.  

 

Actually, she said "...three days, night or day" which is not necessarily the same thing.  But even if it is, as I said previously, nothing in the account precludes at least a portion on 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times. 

 

[rstrats]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I have seen some hypothesize Wednesday or Thursday dates for the crucifixion, suggesting a "floating Sabbath" (one other than the weekly Saturday Sabbath) occurred on Thursday or Friday. 

That's an issue for a different topic. 

[anatess2]

18 hours ago, rstrats said:

 

Actually, she said "...three days, night or day" which is not necessarily the same thing.  But even if it is, as I said previously, nothing in the account precludes at least a portion on 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times. 

 

The relevant portion of the comparison is the reference to 3 days.  In Esther's account - 3rd day is counted in Jewish tradition.  In the same manner, the NT account, 3rd day is counted in Jewish tradition.  Jesus clearly stated in his own words that on the 3rd day he will rise again.  Not on the 4th day.  Jesus was crucified on the day before the Sabbath as it was imperative that he be taken down and buried before sundown which starts the Sabbath.  Jesus was resurrected by dawn on the 3rd day.  If he was resurrected by dawn on Monday, that would have been the 4th day.  This is the standard by which the Catholic Church (adopted by the Protestants as well) arrange the Liturgical Calendar with the Lent Season starting 40 days before Easter Sunday and Palm Sunday being the Sunday before Easter with sundown on Thursday being the beginning the 1st day, sundown on Friday being the 2nd day and sundown on Saturday being the 3rd day.  LDS does not really have a liturgical calendar.  They just follow in fellowship with the vast majority of Christians in their celebrations - so Easter is whatever the Catholic liturgical calendar says and Christmas is the same even as some prophets have floated the possibility of an April 6th birthday of Christ.

Now, there are some fringe sola scriptura folks who point to an alternate reading of the Sabbath.  They posit that the Sabbath after the crucifixion is a high Sabbath that does not fall on the weekly Shabbat due to the passover.  Meaning, that in that specific week of the Jewish calendar there were 2 Sabbaths - the first being the day after the passover and the second the Saturday following.  They reference the 31AD calendar which, according to standard Jewish calendar calculations, would have the passover at sundown on Tuesday night.  Wednesday afternoon (still the day of passover) being the day Jesus was crucified, then Thursday sundown being the weekly Sabbath with Jesus arising before sundown on Saturday and Mary Magdalene discovering the open tomb Sunday morning.  This is just as questionable because... it's a big assumption to think that Jesus died exactly on 31AD.  For people who are very particular about numerology and the exactness of dates and times and biblical events, they float that 1AD is another one of those wild guesses.

In any case, the most important scripture here is - "and on the 3rd day he will rise again".  That's a Biblical number that is found all over scriptures.  Jonah was in the fish for 3 days,  Esther fasted for 3 days, Jesus was missing at the Temple for 3 days, Saul was blind for 3 days, etc. etc. and all those would be 3 days according to Jewish tradition and that's how the liturgical calendar is designed.

[rstrats]

22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

See below:

re:  "Jesus clearly stated in his own words that on the 3rd day he will rise again.  Not on the 4th day."

 

Actually in Mark 8:31 the Messiah said that He would rise after 3 days.   So the verses that say on the 3rd day have to be referring to the 3rd day after His death.  This is in line with Matthew 12:40 in order to get at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times. 

 

 

 

re:  " Jonah was in the fish for 3 days..."

 

Three daytimes, yes.  But it doesn't say anything about calendar days. Nothing in the account precludes the involvement of 4 calendar days. 

 

 

Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

Edited December 6, 2017 by rstrats

[Guest]

On 12/4/2017 at 9:32 AM, rstrats said:

1. The Messiah said that three nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. Of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

4. However, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.

6. In order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.

 

I wonder if anyone looking in knows of any examples to support an assertion of commonality?

My first inclination to this question (which is oft asked throughout Christianity) is "What does it matter?"  This is a clear example of looking beyond the mark.  It matters not that He was dead for three days or four or forty.  The fact that He was dead as Old Marley is what is the point.  And the more important thing was that He was resurrected of His own power.

Give me at least that much and I really don't care about any of these minor details.  But if you want some explanations, go look at the Ask Gramps article that Pam posted.  I think it gave "good enough" answers and was pretty well written. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Guest

[rstrats]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

  "But if you want some explanations..."

 

 

I don't.   I'm simply asking for examples.

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, rstrats said:

re:  "Jesus clearly stated in his own words that on the 3rd day he will rise again.  Not on the 4th day."

 

Actually in Mark 8:31 the Messiah said that He would rise after 3 days.   So the verses that say on the 3rd day have to be referring to the 3rd day after His death.  This is in line with Matthew 12:40 in order to get at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times. 

 

 

 

re:  " Jonah was in the fish for 3 days..."

 

Three daytimes, yes.  But it doesn't say anything about calendar days. Nothing in the account precludes the involvement of 4 calendar days. 

 

 

Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

John 2:19   Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Once again... 3 is a Biblical number.  4, not so much (I believe it only appears in the... "and on the 4th day God created..." and also that there are 4 synoptic gospels).  7, 12, 40 - these are also Biblical numbers.  They tend to pop up often in scripture.  Google says the number 3 appears 467 times in the Bible.

3 days for the Death and Resurrection with Day 1 being Crucifixion, Day 2 being Sabbath, Day 3 being Resurrection goes with the Biblical pattern.  Having that "day after" renders one of the days meaningless... Day 1 Crucifxion, Day 2 Sabbath, Day 3 Blank, then Resurrection...  it doesn't go with the pattern.  The fixed point of the Biblical account is the Sabbath - Jesus had to be taken down before the Sabbath.  So Day 1 being the Crucifixion needs to be directly followed by Day 2 being the Sabbath which leaves Day 3 for the Resurrection.

You don't have to follow this pattern if you just can't make sense of it.  I gave you the alternate reading (of the 2 Sabbaths) if that makes better sense for you.

Edited December 6, 2017 by anatess2

[rstrats]

49 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

See below:

re:  "John 2:19   Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

 

And in light of Mark 8:31 He has to be saying that He will raise Himself up three days after His destruction. 

 

 

 

re:  "3 days for the Death and Resurrection with Day 1 being Crucifixion, Day 2 being Sabbath, Day 3 being Resurrection..."

 

How do you account for the lack of a third night that the Messiah said He would be in the heart of the earth?

 

 

Also, Luke 24:21 indicates that the crucifixion couldn't have occurred any later than the 5th day of the week.

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by rstrats

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, rstrats said:

re:  "John 2:19   Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

 

And in light of Mark 8:31 He has to be saying that He will raise Himself up three days after His destruction. 

 

 

 

re:  "3 days for the Death and Resurrection with Day 1 being Crucifixion, Day 2 being Sabbath, Day 3 being Resurrection..."

 

How do you account for the lack of a third night that the Messiah said He would be in the heart of the earth?

I don't think you're understanding anything I'm saying.  At all.  If I answer this question I'd be sounding like a broken record because I already answered it several times.

How about we do it a different way.  How do YOU resolve John 2:19 with Matthew 12:40?  Answer that question and I'll tell you what I think about what you came up with.  Deal?

Edited December 6, 2017 by anatess2

[Vort]

For believing Latter-day Saints, examples of ancient usage are irrelevant. We have Book of Mormon testimony to guide us.

[rstrats]

18 hours ago, anatess2 said:

18 hours ago, anatess2 said:

See below:

re:  "I don't think you're understanding anything I'm saying. "

 

I understand it perfectly.  It's just that it is irrelevant to this particular topic.  None of your comments include examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur.

 

 

 

re:   "How do YOU resolve John 2:19 with Matthew 12:40?"

 

In Matthew 12:40 the Messiah said that He would be 3 nights in the heart of the earth. 

 

In John 2:19 the Messiah said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

 

So if the Messiah meant what He said in Matthew 12:40, then He had to mean in John 2:19 that He would rise three days after His destruction.  That is the only way to get 3 nights. 

 

[rstrats]

 

18 hours ago, Vort said:

For believing Latter-day Saints, examples of ancient usage are irrelevant. We have Book of Mormon testimony to guide us.

Does the Book of Mormon say that even though the Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights that He actually meant 2 nights?

[zil]

36 minutes ago, rstrats said:

Does the Book of Mormon say that even though the Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights that He actually meant 2 nights?

The Book of Mormon says that the Bible is the word of God, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that he atoned for our sins, and that through Him we can be washed clean and return to God.

The Holy Ghost tells me these things are true.  That's enough to go on.  We are promised that one day, all will be revealed.  I'm not going to throw away above truths over a counting issue - and no, the counting issue doesn't have the power to trump the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, rstrats said:

I don't.   I'm simply asking for examples.

The example of Esther should be really obvious.  You found it unacceptable because it didn't have your particular wording that you're essentially demanding.  That is the MO of someone with an agenda or an already formed preconceived notion.  What is that notion?  And why is this so important to you?  What are you trying to accomplish with this?

Are you letting your testimony rise and fall on this single word "day"?  Gee, I guess you really felt the Spirit testify to you.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Guest

[Vort]

1 hour ago, rstrats said:

Does the Book of Mormon say that even though the Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights that He actually meant 2 nights?

The Book of Mormon warns most forcefully against those who call themselves rstrats.

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, rstrats said:

I understand it perfectly.  It's just that it is irrelevant to this particular topic.  

See, here... if you understood it perfectly, then you would see how it IS RELEVANT to this topic.

 

3 hours ago, rstrats said:

None of your comments include examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur.

That is because my comments was not designed to count days and nights but to explain why the majority of Christendom commemorate Christ's death on a Friday and Christ's resurrection on a Sunday.  The time elapsed, days elapsed, nights elapsed is irrelevant to this commemoration because that's just a day the early Christians chose to commemorate said events and the only relevant points is that there are 3 days and one of them is a Sabbath. 

For example, we celebrate Christmas on December 25.  Where in the scriptures does it say Jesus was born on December 25?  Nowhere.  That is just the day that the early Church picked to commemorate the event.  So, do Christians make the claim that Jesus HAS TO HAVE died on a Friday and HAS TO HAVE risen on Sunday?  Not really.  It could be Thursday, it could be Wednesday, it could be any day.  All we know is Jesus died on the afternoon before the start of the Sabbath.  In the same manner, do Christians make the claim that Jesus HAVE TO HAVE been born on December 25?  Not really.  Do you understand?

 

3 hours ago, rstrats said:

So if the Messiah meant what He said in Matthew 12:40, then He had to mean in John 2:19 that He would rise three days after His destruction.  That is the only way to get 3 nights. 

Okay, so he rose after 3 nights have passed.  Nothing wrong with believing that as literally 3 full nights.

So here are some possible re-enactments that would give you 3 full nights.  So the fixed point is that there's the Sabbath where he was laid on the tomb which started on that sundown after Christ died - So Death Day is always followed by a Sabbath Day.

1.) So, if we take that Sabbath to be the weekly Shabbat (Saturday), then Jesus died on a Friday afternoon, then he resurrected sometime after sunrise on Monday which is when Mary Magdalene found him.

2.) OR if we make the Resurrection be on a Sunday to further support the reason why early Christians moved the Sabbath to a Sunday, then it could have gone this way:  Saturday before the Resurrection would have to be a Sabbath but that won't be THE Sabbath after Jesus died because it won't give you 3 nights.  So, we will have to take that Sabbath to be one of the 7 High Sabbaths that the Jews celebrates every year so then the High Sabbath could have been on a Friday so Jesus died Thursday afternoon giving you 3 nights before Christ's resurrection on Sunday and with the 2 back-to-back Sabbath days that could be why Mary didn't go to the tomb until Sunday.

3.) But then the 2 back-to-back Sabbath days wouldn't have given Mary time to buy spices before she goes to the tomb, so it could also be that Jesus died on a Wednesday afternoon, Thursday is the High Sabbath, Mary buys spices on Friday, Saturday is the weekly Sabbath on which day Jesus resurrected after sunrise giving him the 3 nights.  Mary didn't go to the tomb until Sunday morning because of the Sabbath so she didn't find out about the resurrection until then.  

Either way... that's how you can have 3 nights between death and resurrection.  If you like, you can come up with your own speculation exactly which day Christ died and what day Christ got resurrected.

As you can see, all of these are ways you can resolve those scripture.  It is still irrelevant to the day Christians chose to commemorate these events on a liturgical calendar in the same manner that saying Jesus was born on April 6 is irrelevant to the day we chose to commemorate Christmas Day.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by anatess2

[rstrats]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

  "As you can see, all of these are ways you can resolve those scripture."

 

That's fine, but they're issues for a different topic.  This topic is concerned with one thing and one thing only; was it common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?