This is why people leave

[mirkwood]

On 12/20/2017 at 10:28 AM, anatess2 said:

Wait, what?

Are you saying that if I don't give you fish I'm evil?  WHAT??? 

Yes.  I’ll take some fresh caught trout for dinner tonight.

 

[dahlia]

On 12/17/2017 at 8:31 PM, NeedleinA said:

Elder Donald L. Hallstrom  Turn to the Lord

You took offense to this brother* and it prompted you to take the time to write a thread about leaving the church.
I could easily take offense to you tossing around race ( 3 blond white women ) like you often do, but I'm not going to leave the church because of your actions.

The choice is mine, the choice is yours to be offended or not.

*I reread your comments. As the HPGL for many years I was in charge of the meetinghouse cleaning assignments. Asking a person why they can't clean would simply be helpful information to know. You took it as interrogation by a white man. Perhaps he simply needed to know "why" so he didn't put you in the same position again unknowingly. You were the one who went back to him "hot" after the fact. It is okay to look in the mirror sometimes too.

I took it as an interrogation. The white part came later, after I had time to think.

I don't know who this brother is used to talking to at work, but I'm sure not used to it, not at work and not in my personal life. I have had almost 99.99% good experiences in my ward, which is perhaps why this 'interrogation'  struck me as so out of line. 

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, dahlia said:

I took it as an interrogation. The white part came later, after I had time to think.

I don't know who this brother is used to talking to at work, but I'm sure not used to it, not at work and not in my personal life. I have had almost 99.99% good experiences in my ward, which is perhaps why this 'interrogation'  struck me as so out of line. 

A week or so ago we had our ward Christmas party.  At the bottom of the email forwarded to me with the time of the party, I saw an email to relief society asking for people to help set up the morning before.  My wife couldn't make it, so I went over to help.  After about an hour of work, I was asked to bring something into the RS room and give it to the woman working there. Upon arrival, I handed the boxes to the only woman in the room.  I saw her at church every Sunday but don't believe I'd ever interacted with her.  As I handed her the box, she stared at me and demanded: "Who are you?".  I told her, and she asked if I was the husband of Mrs. Grunt.  She continued to look at me very oddly and made it clear through body language that I was not yet "dismissed".  "Why are you here!?!".  "To help", I responded.  She then asked in an accusatory manner: "Why are you here?"   I explained I saw the email and apologize if this was supposed to be for RS only, I just stopped by to help.  "It's just unusual to see a man willing to help" was her response (the First Counselor was the only other male there, but I assume he opened the building).

I don't remember my response, but I felt fairly odd about the interaction.  I went back and continued my work.  At the end of the morning, she handed out little gifts and gave me a hug, thanking me for my help.  Even that seemed forced.  I mentioned it to one of the RS women I'm friendly with.  She laughed and knew exactly who I was talking about.  I was informed that was her personality, but she was a lovely woman who gives her heart and soul to the ward.  

I'm glad I didn't let that initial interaction to harden my heart towards her or the church.  I will admit, though, it took a conscious effort on my part to put it behind me at that time.

[JohnsonJones]

@dahlia

I just wanted to say, please don't feel offended by him. I would never ask anyone to do something that would offend them or be hard for them. 

I can present the other side of the coin though.  I am very guilty of not being as valiant in this as I should be.  In theory I should always be at the church helping clean when it is needed.  In truth, probably any member of the Bishopric should do that as well.  I would hazard a guess that currently, the calling to the individual who is in charge of coordinating the church cleaning is the toughest calling in our area (and perhaps in the church, church wide, but I don't know that as I can only relate personal experience).  They have a very hard time getting people to help clean the church. 

There have been weeks no one shows up.  This leaves that one individual to do all the cleaning themselves if they feel that responsible.  It can make some become a little bitter about the experience.  It can be hard to be expected to be responsible on this when there is so little support from the ward at times.  As I said, even I am some what hypocritical on this. 

What is worse is we tend to give this calling to those who are Elders or others.  In reality, now that I reflect on it, it probably would be best to give this calling to former Bishops and High Counselors.  It is of such a hard calling at times that it can cause a LOT of bitterness.

That does not excuse his actions, but that may explain why he may have approached it as he did.

I do not know, but it could be that the individual at the time they were talking to you were feeling bitter...not towards you, but simply in regards to the calling.  I have seen it before.  That said, if you have a handicap of that nature I would never expect you to need to help.  If you need to, explain it to the Bishop and ask them to take you off the list...permanently. 

I am sorry that you were approached this way, but I am gladdened that you are staying in the church.

[JohnsonJones]

@Shath

I just wanted to clarify something.  It seems that you are equating LDS church welfare as a charity.  I would say that your assumptions are not exactly correct.  Yes, it could be viewed as a charity, but it is NOT the charity that you seem to be referring to.  It is NOT like the charity that you see in regards to welfare or other items in that regards.

In that way, under that type of definition, the LDS church welfare is NOT a charity.  Thus, trying to see it in the same way you would other charities is not going to work.  It is like trying to compare apples and oranges.

To try to explain better.  In the 30s and 40s when the US was first instituting Welfare systems, they also had an idea that people would work for help.  In this, those who were able were given jobs.  At times all that job consisted of was digging a ditch in front of the office and then filling in that ditch.  It served no real purpose except to give the individual work.  They then were given checks that they could use for various purposes. This was also called Welfare, but it was a very different system than the welfare organization you see in the US and other nations today.

It is this earlier definition and idea that the LDS church Welfare system works at times.  Thus, in that light it may not count as a charity in the way that you are defining it.  We CAN give out money to those who are in need and cannot work or earn it for themselves.  However, the ideal is that each person is able to support themselves.  In that light, do not look at the LDS church welfare as a charity, but instead as a program designed more like the labor department's idea of getting people back on their feet and back to work.  It is operated differently, but the purpose is similar.  Just like that department isn't a charity like they way you describe charity, neither is the LDS church welfare program.  We encourage people to find ways to be able to support themselves.  If possible, we have someone who can help them see if there is a way to better handle their finances.  We also are able to help them temporarily to get food and other necessities if we have the means to do so (and sometimes, we do not have the means to give people money for housing, our budgets in these arenas are extremely limited).    We also try to have an employment specialist, much like the Labor department does, that can help those who need better jobs or just employment in general to build resumes, find contacts, and to get those jobs and training that they need.  We have online schooling now that is promoted by the church to help people obtain better educations.  All this can be seen as part of the Church Welfare system.

As you see, it is NOT a charity as you think, but more in line with what the labor department may do today in helping people gain employment.  This is done via the LDS church though, so one could see it also as a way to be of assistance if needed.

I hope that clarifies what the LDS welfare system is all about and why, IN MY OPINION, you are a little mistaken about what and why it exists in the LDS church.  Normally, when the LDS church does charity like what you describe it is either from individual members (and I personally believe there are many members out there that give a great deal to the charities that deal in the charity type work you have been discussing), or it is more in response to disasters and other things (such as a hurricane that affects and area, or an earthquake that takes down infrastructure and such).

That said, nothing is FORCED upon the member in the LDS church.  WE may have preferences, for example if someone is able to work but currently unemployed I would suggest that they help with work around the church.  It can make it so that they might feel useful when they are out of work, and that they are not just getting a hand out, but are providing something useful and needed for what they are getting.  That is THEIR choice though, and I have never forced anyone to do any sort of work around the church or otherwise in conjunction with the LDS church welfare system.

[warnerfranklin]

I’m in the military and often when I give a class to young Airmen I will ask the question, “What’s your biggest complaint about the USAF?”  From there the conversation will typically evolve into, “My supervisor is horrible because....”. 

“Okay,” I then ask, “What will you do differently when you are that person in a leadership position?”

I will then remind them that we learn something from everyone. Either HOW to do something or HOW NOT to do something.  The question is, which path are we going to choose, do we repeat the mistakes or make things better?

Further, if we see our leadership is struggling (as was the person in this example), what are we doing to help them become better?  

I’m not saying he handled the situation well, nor am I saying you’re not justified in how you feel.  But I hope this event is something that will make us pause and think. 

For those of us in leadership positions are we approaching those we are responsible for in a spirit of love and humility?  If not then maybe we should repent and ask for help to do better.

For those of us who are under authority are we doing everything we can to support those who have more responsibility and are held to a higher standard?  Remember we are instructed to pray for our leadership that they may have wisdom and so that we may live in peace. 

I Timothy 2:2-3, Matthew 5:9

[Namaskar]

On 12/18/2017 at 6:58 PM, dahlia said:

I'm not leaving  (and I had completely forgotten the story about the misspelled name. It happens so frequently to me that I wouldn't be speaking to anyone if I let it bother me.  I was just saying, I see how people leave over what seems like minor things to other people. 

I certainly see how people become less active. 

If you had heard the Brother's tone, you might have felt differently. I don't know what he does for a living or what kind of people he's used to speaking to, but he needs to get a grip. If he had said, "Is there something else you can do?" I wouldn't have taken any offense at all. That, to me, would be a logical, inclusive, kind of question. But 'explain'?  Heck no. 

I think you handled it well and you shouldn’t have to explain yourself if you don’t want to. One of my biggest reasons for cutting back on my involvement with the lds community is basic lack of boundaries. 

Boundaries are good and healthy things! 

On 12/17/2017 at 11:01 AM, NeedleinA said:

True you don't. You simply say, "Please remove my name from the cleaning roster as I won't be able to serve in that capacity again".
Then move on and serve in some other way that better suits you physically.

Leave the church over this, um...

 

My issue with these discussions is that people don’t acknowledge and validate those that feel hurt by it.

If someone decides to stop attending because of interactions like this, they shouldn’t be dismissed. It should be looked at and asked if there is a shift that needs to happen. 

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Namaskar said:

I think you handled it well and you shouldn’t have to explain yourself if you don’t want to. One of my biggest reasons for cutting back on my involvement with the lds community is basic lack of boundaries. 

Asked a friend about how he handles such things as a Baptist minister.  He said they have a general request for volunteers.  If they don't get any, then he does it and uses the time to think about why he's not instilling enough of a service-oriented mentality in his congregation.  I know many churches have a half dozen people who volunteer for everything, a couple dozen more who volunteer for several things every year, and a few more who always volunteer for specific things.  And that's fine; everything gets done, and if those half dozen are working harder than anyone else, it's by their own request, with no pressure from anyone else.

1 hour ago, Namaskar said:

My issue with these discussions is that people don’t acknowledge and validate those that feel hurt by it.

If someone decides to stop attending because of interactions like this, they shouldn’t be dismissed. It should be looked at and asked if there is a shift that needs to happen. 

This.  People can only be invalidated for so long before they either remove themselves from the situation or develop defense mechanisms that are often worse than just leaving.

[Namaskar]

3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Asked a friend about how he handles such things as a Baptist minister.  He said they have a general request for volunteers.  If they don't get any, then he does it and uses the time to think about why he's not instilling enough of a service-oriented mentality in his congregation.  I know many churches have a half dozen people who volunteer for everything, a couple dozen more who volunteer for several things every year, and a few more who always volunteer for specific things.  And that's fine; everything gets done, and if those half dozen are working harder than anyone else, it's by their own request, with no pressure from anyone else.

This.  People can only be invalidated for so long before they either remove themselves from the situation or develop defense mechanisms that are often worse than just leaving.

I’M curious why the LDS Church doesn’t seek more volunteer approach for callings? Is it just the way it’s been done for so many years? I see the value in giving people the opportunity to grow by accepting things outside of the norm, but some people (like myself) find opportunity on their own and would rather volunteer where it interests them. 

And yes to the invalidation! I have separated myself from the LDS community not because I’m offended by a specific situation or person, but because I don’t feel like it’s a healthy environment. And sure, I  could keep going and sometimes I still go but I’ve found removing myself from the environment has been more beneficial to my spirituality and connection with God and others. There is no bitterness either I still have love and compassion for the church and it’s members, but I’m sure it’s hard for people to believe me if I tell them. 

[Grunt]

8 hours ago, Namaskar said:

I’M curious why the LDS Church doesn’t seek more volunteer approach for callings? Is it just the way it’s been done for so many years? I see the value in giving people the opportunity to grow by accepting things outside of the norm, but some people (like myself) find opportunity on their own and would rather volunteer where it interests them. 

 

I would say a calling isn't about your plans for yourself or your desires.  It's about God's plan for you, your growth, and the organization of the Church.  Based upon this, and the quote I'll address below, I would suggest you may be holding yourself back from spiritual growth.  

8 hours ago, Namaskar said:

And yes to the invalidation! I have separated myself from the LDS community not because I’m offended by a specific situation or person, but because I don’t feel like it’s a healthy environment. And sure, I  could keep going and sometimes I still go but I’ve found removing myself from the environment has been more beneficial to my spirituality and connection with God and others. There is no bitterness either I still have love and compassion for the church and it’s members, but I’m sure it’s hard for people to believe me if I tell them. 

1

I would ask you to reconsider this through pondering and prayer.  You may think removing yourself from Christ's Church is beneficial to you, but I'm quite sure it isn't.  Besides, as I pointed out above, it isn't entirely about you.  It's about service to God, which includes service to your fellow Saints.  You don't just gain from the community, you're intended to add to it.  Your presence in the community is important.  If there is dysfunction in your group, it's important that you're present to fix it.  If you're the only person who sees this, then it's important you evaluate yourself to fix YOU if needed.  

I can see no way that removing yourself from the LDS community will benefit you in ANY way.  If you've convinced yourself it has, I believe there are other forces leading you astray.

[anatess2]

8 hours ago, Namaskar said:

I’M curious why the LDS Church doesn’t seek more volunteer approach for callings? Is it just the way it’s been done for so many years? I see the value in giving people the opportunity to grow by accepting things outside of the norm, but some people (like myself) find opportunity on their own and would rather volunteer where it interests them. 

The church welcomes volunteers.  But, in the end, the choice is made by God.  The volunteering simply gives the people who are in charge of issuing the callings an opportunity to pray and ask God about your desire to serve in that capacity.

This is a good thing, in my opinion.  It fulfills the requirement that you can't "aspire" to a position in the church.  For example, somebody might think that there's a certain prestige to being the Bishop or in the auxiliary presidencies, etc., so he/she decides to "climb the ladder" of church hierarchy to attain that goal. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by anatess2

[Namaskar]

16 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I would say a calling isn't about your plans for yourself or your desires.  It's about God's plan for you, your growth, and the organization of the Church.  Based upon this, and the quote I'll address below, I would suggest you may be holding yourself back from spiritual growth.  

I would ask you to reconsider this through pondering and prayer.  You may think removing yourself from Christ's Church is beneficial to you, but I'm quite sure it isn't.  Besides, as I pointed out above, it isn't entirely about you.  It's about service to God, which includes service to your fellow Saints.  You don't just gain from the community, you're intended to add to it.  Your presence in the community is important.  If there is dysfunction in your group, it's important that you're present to fix it.  If you're the only person who sees this, then it's important you evaluate yourself to fix YOU if needed.  

I can see no way that removing yourself from the LDS community will benefit you in ANY way.  If you've convinced yourself it has, I believe there are other forces leading you astray.

I understand what you are saying about callings. I have always accepted callings in the past, aside from declining a couple sacrament talks. I respect the church as an institution and recently declined a calling because I’m unsure if it’s the place for me (for other reasons). That was a choice made from respect and from my free will. 

I’ve never felt as much love as I feel currently because I am trying to quiet the life around me so I can truly heal, truly recognize truth.

It’s not my job to fix anything, at least that’s not how I approach being part of a community. People have to want to fix and heal themselves. I believe in living a life led by God and I seek and ask for opportunities to help others. I believe the church needs better boundaries from leaders and members within it.

So if someone declines a calling, whether it be inspired by God or not, I don’t believe it should be anyone’s business. I don’t believe all callings are divinely inspired and I believe more members should feel comfortable declining if they choose. And I’ve heard plenty of people complain about their callings to believe that boundaries are a very healthy part of any community.

You may think I’m being led astray by some other force but you aren’t me, and I am not you. You can’t say what you know for me just as much as I can’t say I know for you. I know God exists and is part of all life. I honor, respect and love everyone because of that knowledge. 

[Namaskar]

33 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The church welcomes volunteers.  But, in the end, the choice is made by God.  The volunteering simply gives the people who are in charge of issuing the callings an opportunity to pray and ask God about your desire to serve in that capacity.

This is a good thing, in my opinion.  It fulfills the requirement that you can't "aspire" to a position in the church.  For example, somebody might think that there's a certain prestige to being the Bishop or in the auxiliary presidencies, etc., so he/she decides to "climb the ladder" of church hierarchy to attain that goal. 

I agree that not everything can be volunteer based because we are human. It takes a lot of self awareness to be selfless and surrender our will to God.  

I dont know that all the callings are a choice from God. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. If enough people complain about callings they have, or callings they don’t want, perhaps it’s an opportunity for people to change the approach. 

maybe that means members feeling comfortable declining callings. I certainly am and have a dear friend who has declined for our own reasons and I know God still loves me. Maybe that means leaders taking more time to get to know people so they can be more intune with what they might need. Maybe that means leaders asking why people complain so much and trying to discover new approaches to filling callings. 

I’m not saying I know best, cause I don’t! It doesn’t mean things have to stay the way they are. Or maybe it does and I’m not angry about it either. I just set my boundaries and stay close to my spiritual guide. 

[anatess2]

54 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

I agree that not everything can be volunteer based because we are human. It takes a lot of self awareness to be selfless and surrender our will to God.  

I dont know that all the callings are a choice from God. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. If enough people complain about callings they have, or callings they don’t want, perhaps it’s an opportunity for people to change the approach. 

maybe that means members feeling comfortable declining callings. I certainly am and have a dear friend who has declined for our own reasons and I know God still loves me. Maybe that means leaders taking more time to get to know people so they can be more intune with what they might need. Maybe that means leaders asking why people complain so much and trying to discover new approaches to filling callings. 

I’m not saying I know best, cause I don’t! It doesn’t mean things have to stay the way they are. Or maybe it does and I’m not angry about it either. I just set my boundaries and stay close to my spiritual guide. 

All those things are possible because all of us - including the prophet - are fallen human beings.

But the pattern God provided is - we pray for His will in how the church is run.  A bishop trying to figure out who to call for certain callings tries his best to ask God.  Maybe he receives the revelation from God or maybe he fails to recognize the will of God - he is just as fallible as the next guy.  He calls the person to the calling and it is then the person's responsibility to pray about the calling and seek the will of God.  That person is also just as fallible as the next guy.  So, maybe he receives that personal revelation from God or maybe he fails to recognize the will of God.  In any case, if his revelation matches the bishop's then he accepts the calling.  If it doesn't, then he doesn't accept and the bishop goes back to praying for another person.

So, let's say the bishop is not a righteous bishop and he issues the calling without bothering to seek God's will in the matter.  He issues the calling and the person prays about it and God prompts him to accept the calling.  This still is following the will of God.  Let's say the person prays about it and God prompts him to not accept the calling.  This is still following the will of God as well.  Now, let's say the person prays about it and he doesn't get a prompting but he accepts the calling anyway because he sustains the bishop.  The person is still doing God's will (sustaining the bishop) and may reap God's blessings in the fulfillment of the calling.  The bishop, on the other hand, is in sin and will have to account for it with God.

In any case, we seek - always and always - the will of God in all matters.  If you receive a prompting that the calling is not God's will then you need to reject that calling.  Hope this helps.

Edited February 22, 2018 by anatess2

[Namaskar]

26 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

All those things are possible because all of us - including the prophet - are fallen human beings.

But the pattern God provided is - we pray for His will in how the church is run.  A bishop trying to figure out who to call for certain callings tries his best to ask God.  Maybe he receives the revelation from God or maybe he fails to recognize the will of God - he is just as fallible as the next guy.  He calls the person to the calling and it is then the person's responsibility to pray about the calling and seek the will of God.  That person is also just as fallible as the next guy.  So, maybe he receives that personal revelation from God or maybe he fails to recognize the will of God.  In any case, if his revelation matches the bishop's then he accepts the calling.  If it doesn't, then he doesn't accept and the bishop goes back to praying for another person.

So, let's say the bishop is not a righteous bishop and he issues the calling without bothering to seek God's will in the matter.  He issues the calling and the person prays about it and God prompts him to accept the calling.  This still is following the will of God.  Let's say the person prays about it and God prompts him to not accept the calling.  This is still following the will of God as well.  Now, let's say the person prays about it and he doesn't get a prompting but he accepts the calling anyway because he sustains the bishop.  The person is still doing God's will (sustaining the bishop) and may reap God's blessings in the fulfillment of the calling.  The bishop, on the other hand, is in sin and will have to account for it with God.

In any case, we seek - always and always - the will of God in all matters.  If you receive a prompting that the calling is not God's will then you need to reject that calling.  Hope this helps.

Yes that all makes sense. I hope more people truly seek that route 

[NeedleinA]

10 hours ago, Namaskar said:

I’M curious why the LDS Church doesn’t seek more volunteer approach for callings? Is it just the way it’s been done for so many years? I see the value in giving people the opportunity to grow by accepting things outside of the norm, but some people (like myself) find opportunity on their own and would rather volunteer where it interests them.

You can grow at your pace, your interests OR you can allow our Father in Heaven to help shape you into someone far better.
Enjoy...

 

[Namaskar]

23 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

You can grow at your pace, your interests OR you can allow our Father in Heaven to help shape you into someone far better.
Enjoy...

 

I believe that’s what’s happening in my life thanks for the video 

[NeedleinA]

23 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

I believe that’s what’s happening in my life thanks for the video 

You are welcome.

[JohnsonJones]

12 hours ago, Namaskar said:

I’M curious why the LDS Church doesn’t seek more volunteer approach for callings? Is it just the way it’s been done for so many years? I see the value in giving people the opportunity to grow by accepting things outside of the norm, but some people (like myself) find opportunity on their own and would rather volunteer where it interests them. 

And yes to the invalidation! I have separated myself from the LDS community not because I’m offended by a specific situation or person, but because I don’t feel like it’s a healthy environment. And sure, I  could keep going and sometimes I still go but I’ve found removing myself from the environment has been more beneficial to my spirituality and connection with God and others. There is no bitterness either I still have love and compassion for the church and it’s members, but I’m sure it’s hard for people to believe me if I tell them. 

This is one of those hard things to answer in the church.  I do not know why some do not accept volunteers at times.  It seems counter intuitive, and sometimes, even a hurtful thing.

I welcome volunteers, but at times it can be difficult.  If a calling is already filled by someone who loves that calling, another individual volunteering for it might not be possible at that time.  I actually have never had this happen though.

The other problem is that sometimes people want to volunteer for positions they feel will bring them glory or prestige.  People might volunteer to be a Relief society president, or a counselor in the Bishopric (I wonder at times if they would be so eager if they knew what it actually entailed, but that's just me), or other positions they see as prestigious.  It is then that one has to ask, what is their motivation and why do they seek this calling.  For priesthood callings, some of these callings are not resolved at the Ward Level, but at the Stake level.  In addition, is this the only calling that is suited for them.  Would they be happy enough to be a Nursery leader or Ward Missionary, or does it have to be this other calling?

What I constantly seem to see is that it is VERY HARD to get someone in a calling at times.  There are certain callings which seem to be constantly difficult to fill.  These can be positions like ward cleaning coordinator, scouting leadership and sometimes teachers.  It sounds like some wards have no problems getting people to fill positions, but it seems incredibly hard at times to get individuals to fill positions from my standpoint. 

This is going to sound ridiculous I suppose, after a lot of prayer, sometimes it is even a desperate thought of who is even going to accept this calling.  I personally wish there WERE more people who would volunteer but for the callings that no one seems to want.  Even then, even if someone volunteers, there still needs to be prayer about it.  There needs to be questions on whether someone should be called or not.  If the answer is no...then that's it.

Luckily, most of the time, at least in my ward, the choices of who will be asked for a calling is up to those who are the leadership of that organization.  Hence, the Primary President will pray about and seek to find those who should be called as primary teachers and cub scout leaders.  Young Men leaders will pray and seek to find those who should be Young Men leaders, teachers, and scout leaders.  Etc...and so forth.  It then goes to the Bishopric, and normally the Bishop or a Counselor is over the organization and they pray about it, and finally the Bishopric meets and prays about it. 

I would prefer that there would be a more accepting attitude towards volunteerism in the LDS church, but it is more than just saying yes to people volunteering for positions that they like.  I would prefer to see it where people look to see where help is actually needed.  When they see that help is needed, they then volunteer for that position.  If nothing is wrong with them filling that positions, that leaders are humble enough to say...why not instead of having pride (and it happens) take over.  However, it doesn't just end there.  I would ALSO like it if people would be humble enough that they seek positions where help is needed in an even greater way, they actually ask the Bishop or other leaders where help is needed or if they could help.  THEN, if the Bishop or leaders see a need, even if it's not in the organization that the individual would like to be in, and then ASK the individual to fulfill a calling in that area of need, the individual accepts the calling. 

In this way, by helping prop up areas where there is need, the entire ward is lifted up.  If people would seek to help in areas of need in the ward, it would be such an easier thing to ask people for callings in the ward.  Many times it is the Bishop and the leaders that know where these areas of need are, even if they are not visible to much of the rest of the ward.  If people would volunteer more with a spirit of...is there any where you need help...type of attitude, this would be wonderful.  Having people volunteer in this way would make it far easier for callings, especially those that are very hard to fill and are constantly needed (a clean building is pretty much something everyone wants, but it seems very few will want to help accomplish for example) would be an excessively WONDERFUL thing, in my opinion.  I would love to see members volunteering like that.

That's my biased viewpoint though, but hopefully it can also give perspective on why callings are given out at times like they are, and the thought processes that go on behind the scenes at times.

Edited February 22, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[zil]

There are practical reasons why volunteering for a calling (ahem) won't work to run the Church as an organization.  It ought not to be hard for any experienced adult to figure out a few.

There are spiritual reasons why volunteering for a calling (ahem) won't work from a spiritual standpoint.  It ought not to be hard for a spiritually experienced adult to figure out a few.

As near as I can tell, the commentary thus far (what I've read of it (ahem)) has been about how to keep the organization running.  I submit that this is not the primary purpose of callings.  Rather, it is a happy side-effect.  Further, I think that when one starts to think running the organization is the point of callings, one should cast that thought out and replace it with a better one.  Any experienced adult willing to confess to the truth ought to be able to do all these exercises without too much difficulty - even if they don't like the outcome.

Edited February 22, 2018 by zil

[Namaskar]

19 minutes ago, zil said:

There are practical reasons why volunteering for a calling (ahem) won't work to run the Church as an organization.  It ought not to be hard for any experienced adult to figure out a few.

There are spiritual reasons why volunteering for a calling (ahem) won't work from a spiritual standpoint.  It ought not to be hard for a spiritually experienced adult to figure out a few.

As near as I can tell, the commentary thus far (what I've read of it (ahem)) has been about how to keep the organization running.  I submit that this is not the primary purpose of callings.  Rather, it is a happy side-effect.  Further, I think that when one starts to think running the organization is the point of callings, one should cast that thought out and replace it with a better one.  Any experienced adult willing to confess to the truth ought to be able too do all these exercises without too much difficulty - even if they don't like the outcome.

Assuming your “ahems” are meant to be funny and not sarcastic and your choice of using “ “experienced adult” is not meant to be condescending, because they can be perceived as passive aggressive rather than just saying: it’s called a calling for a reason haha.

There are also reasons why volunteering could work for both organizational and spiritual reason. It doesn’t have to be black and white, just a thought. 

 

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

There are also reasons why volunteering could work for both organizational and spiritual reason. It doesn’t have to be black and white, just a thought. 

Perhaps. But in the end, we don't volunteer for eternal life. We are called to it. This is how the kingdom of God works. Volunteering is great, and at times can be very useful, but it's not the basis for the operation of the kingdom of God. We serve where we are called.

[zil]

Just now, Namaskar said:

Assuming your “ahems” are meant to be funny and not sarcastic and your choice of using “ “experienced adult” is not meant to be condescending, because they can be perceived as passive aggressive rather than just saying: it’s called a calling for a reason haha.

The "ahem"s after calling are meant to draw attention to the word (as in, its meaning).  "Experienced adult" is meant to suggest that one outside the Church, one who hasn't had experience in an organization which relied occasionally on volunteers, and one who is not an adult might not be able to figure out the reasons for these things.  In other words, there are people who could very reasonably not know why volunteers wouldn't work.

The "ahem" after "what I've read of it" was a little tease for @JohnsonJones who is famous for writing novella-length posts.  (Fortunately, he's good humored about it, and I hope he knows that those of us who tease him mean it gently, not maliciously.)

5 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

There are also reasons why volunteering could work for both organizational and spiritual reason. It doesn’t have to be black and white, just a thought. 

I believe there are times when volunteering is a great thing - organizationally or spiritually.  I do not believe for a split second that callings are one of those times.  But I understand that you disagree with me.

[Namaskar]

29 minutes ago, Vort said:

Perhaps. But in the end, we don't volunteer for eternal life. We are called to it. This is how the kingdom of God works. Volunteering is great, and at times can be very useful, but it's not the basis for the operation of the kingdom of God. We serve where we are called.

Who was it again that volunteered to save us all?

[NightSG]

2 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

Who was it again that volunteered to save us all?

Now, don't go putting logic into it; next you'll be questioning how D&C 58:26-29 is supposed to square with the "not my calling" culture.