Adam and Eve and Evolution

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Adam's body was human.  How Adam's body was created (the period between dust and human) we don't know.  We at least know from revealed official doctrine that the body evolved from dust by the hand of God.

Adam was created from the dust of the earth. Thats a fact. Heres another fact- Both you and I are made from the dust of the earth. 

"25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you." (Mosiah 2:25)

We do know the process by which we ourselves were created from the dust of the earth. Why should it be different now than with Adam?

Edited December 19, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Your inquiry is common belief amongst LDS evolutionists. The only way it works for evolutionists is to believe two principles. That 1st. one is that up until Adam, the lower order of man was either spiritless or had a different kind of spirit than man has.

Not necessarily. Adamic lineage or an elevated state of consciousness or the emergence of conscience (morality,) do not require a precursor of a lack of spirit or a different spirit. After all, we have psychopaths living today presumably with the same kind of spirit body we each possess.

Quote

The second principle they must believe in is that mortality had already been a part of the creation all along.

Again, it depends upon what one means by the creation. Please see the ongoing discussion in the Creation and Garden thread. 

The point being, there is ample room not only for differences of opinion, but also room for growth in understanding, neither of which may occur with dogma.

In other words, you are welcome to your point of view on the issue, and may derive whatever value from it towards meeting the mission of the Church (i.e. to seek Christ), and others are welcome to view it differently to best suit the same gospel purpose. For, it is that purpose where unity of faith is mandated, and not in specific ways it is achieved. Within the body of Christ, the hand may work differently than the feet as long as they each move the body forward and upwards

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited December 19, 2017 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

34 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Not necessarily. Adamic lineage or an elevated state of consciousness or the emergence of conscience (morality,) do not require a precursor of a lack of spirit or a different spirit. After all, we have psychopaths living today presumably with the same kind of spirit body we each possess.

Again, it depends upon what one means by the creation. Please see the ongoing discussion in the Creation and Garden thread. 

The point being, there is ample room not only for differences of opinion, but also room for growth in understanding, neither of which may occur with dogma.

In other words, you are welcome to your point of view on the issue, and may derive whatever value from it towards meeting the mission of the Church (i.e. to seek Christ), and others are welcome to view it differently to best suit the same gospel purpose. For, it is that purpose where unity of faith is mandated, and not in specific ways it is achieved. Within the body of Christ, the hand may work differently than the feet as long as they each move the body forward and upwards

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Exvept that the stance you explain is not a doctrine of the church. The official doctrine of the church is tgat there was no death on the earth until the fall. I dont care how one dices it, thats the facts.

[Guest MormonGator]

28 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The official doctrine of the church is tgat there was no death on the earth until the fall. I dont care how one dices it, thats the facts.

No death at all? Not challenging you, just never heard that one before. 

[brlenox]

 

29 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

No death at all? Not challenging you, just never heard that one before. 

A source:

 

Quote

 

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)

Adam had a spiritual body until mortality came upon him through the violation of the law under which he was living, but he also had a physical body of flesh and bones…. Now what is a spiritual body? It is one that is quickened by spirit and not by blood…. When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creatures.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76-77) 

 

Which is supported by this scripture:

Quote

 

2 Nephi 2:22

And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by brlenox

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, brlenox said:

 

So...no death at all? Animals didn't die either? 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So...no death at all? Animals didn't die either? 

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2016/10/to-the-point/what-does-the-church-believe-about-evolution?lang=eng

As of October 2016, the Church has no official position on evolution (and by extension death among animals before the fall - if the Church had an official position on death among animals before the fall, they would have an official position on evolution, now wouldn't they?)

Or maybe the "pro-evolution conspiracy" at BYU has oozed its way into official Church publications as well . . . 

Edited December 20, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[brlenox]

33 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So...no death at all? Animals didn't die either? 

That is the implication of the Joseph Fielding Smith Quote and 2 Nephi.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So...no death at all? Animals didn't die either? 

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Death_before_the_Fall#Question:_What_does_the_Church_teach_on_the_subject_of_death_before_the_Fall_of_Adam.3F

You can see that there are a whole bunch of opinions on the subject, and they are just that - opinions.

And here, from the Mormon newsroom:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine.  A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.  With divine inspiration, the First Presidency . . . and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles . . . counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

Point being, it is perfectly fine to believe in evolution or death before the fall until the Church releases an official position on the subject.  

I personally strongly believe in evolution, I think the science is overwhelming, but I get the sense that this isn't really an important issue.  If you find the scientific evidence convincing, you are free to believe in evolution.  If you interpret the scriptures to say there was no death before the fall of any type, you are free to believe there was no death before the fall.  It doesn't matter and has nothing to do with your salvation.

Edited December 20, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest MormonGator]

14 minutes ago, brlenox said:

That is the implication of the Joseph Fielding Smith Quote and 2 Nephi.

So...the dinosaurs...giant conspiracy? Never existed? Still alive? 

[zil]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

giant conspiracy?

Well, you know how those giants like to conspire.  I wouldn't put it past them...

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Death_before_the_Fall#Question:_What_does_the_Church_teach_on_the_subject_of_death_before_the_Fall_of_Adam.3F

You can see that there are a whole bunch of opinions on the subject, and they are just that - opinions.

And here, from the Mormon newsroom:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine.  A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.  With divine inspiration, the First Presidency . . . and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles . . . counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

Point being, it is perfectly fine to believe in evolution or death before the fall until the Church releases an official position on the subject.  

I personally strongly believe in evolution, I think the science is overwhelming, but I get the sense that this isn't really an important issue.  If you find the scientific evidence convincing, you are free to believe in evolution.  If you interpret the scriptures to say there was no death before the fall of any type, you are free to believe there was no death before the fall.  It doesn't matter and has nothing to do with your salvation.

Evolution is a bit like gravity. You (generic) can believe whatever you'd like about it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen or that gravity doesn't exist. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, zil said:

Well, you know how those giants like to conspire.  I wouldn't put it past them...

"Conspiracy, eh? Do you think they were involved in the Kennedy assassination?"-Bart Simpson

"I do....now...."-Homer. 

[Guest]

And I hope no one feels attacked by my past comments on evolution.  It really is a pretty silly thing to get worked up about in the grand scheme of things.  We really are just making guesses, basically, based on some vague scriptures and the current state of science.  It could be that what really happened is totally different from what any of us think.

I just try and keep an open mind and trust that everything will work out and make perfect sense someday.  

(If the Church did release an official statement on the matter, I would drop my belief in evolution like a bad habit.  Since it has not, I see no problem being open minded and believing there could be room for evolution and death before the fall in Mormon belief).

Edited December 20, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[zlllch]

1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2016/10/to-the-point/what-does-the-church-believe-about-evolution?lang=eng

As of October 2016, the Church has no official position on evolution (and by extension death among animals before the fall - if the Church had an official position on death among animals before the fall, they would have an official position on evolution, now wouldn't they?)

Or maybe the "pro-evolution conspiracy" at BYU has oozed its way into official Church publications as well . . . 

Thanks, I'm gonna add that link to my original post.

[Guest]

On 12/18/2017 at 12:57 AM, zlllch said:

Please let me know what you believe on this subject and why. I would also be very interested if you are aware of any theories advanced by church leaders, or really anyone else for that matter. Thanks!

 

If you would like, I can give you a wild guess as to what happened ( and it really would be a wild guess as the Church stated in the link I provided that nothing has been revealed on this subject).

I personally speculate that evolution was in place to fine tune our mortal bodies until they lived for a certain period of time, were of a certain durability, and were fit for a mortal existence.  God used evolution to adapt humanity to conditions on this Earth.  If people only lived  ten years (like many animals do), it wouldn't be much of a mortal experience, and if people lived 900 years, they would have too much time to be tempted and fall into sin.  While Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden for thousands and thousands of years, evolution was perhaps happening in the outside world, to pre-adamites who were spiritually more animal than man.  Once the fall happened and human souls started entering into the world (which coincides with the date humanity stopped behaving like animals and started living together in civilized society), while Adam and Eve were not really tuned to mortal conditions and wound up living 900 years (way longer than God would want), the children of Adam and Eve started intermarrying with evolved humans, their genetics were intermixed, and their lifespans became more normal.  As a secondary function, the genetic variety introduced by the children of evolved pre-adamites ensured that humanity would not devolve into a bunch of three-eyed mutants from inbreeding.

This would also explain stuff such as, in the Pearl of Great Price, why there were enough people in the world for Cain, one of the sons of Adam, to build an entire city and name it after his son. 

Now, some of the less open minded may say, "this general authority said this!"  That is fine, Bruce R. McConkie has his own opinions on this subject and I have mine.  If the Church issues an official position on this subject (and I mean a true official position, not a guess as to what Church positions should be based on various opinions), I will drop my opinion and fall into line.  But until then, I reserve the right to my own opinion on the matter.

Edited December 20, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, brlenox said:

I wondered if this was the same Rob Osborn from Mormondialogue.

Yep, the one and only

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, MormonGator said:

No death at all? Not challenging you, just never heard that one before. 

Death entered the earth for all living creatures through the fall. Gospel Principles ch. 6

"God prepared this earth as a home for His children. Adam and Eve were chosen to be the first people to live on the earth (see Moses 1:34; 4:26). Their part in our Father’s plan was to bring mortality into the world. They were to be the first parents. (See D&C 107:54–56.)"
                
                    

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2016/10/to-the-point/what-does-the-church-believe-about-evolution?lang=eng

As of October 2016, the Church has no official position on evolution (and by extension death among animals before the fall - if the Church had an official position on death among animals before the fall, they would have an official position on evolution, now wouldn't they?)

Or maybe the "pro-evolution conspiracy" at BYU has oozed its way into official Church publications as well . . . 

Im telling you, them guys at BYU have uncanny persuasiveness.

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

So...the dinosaurs...giant conspiracy? Never existed? Still alive? 

Dinosaurs walked with man.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

If you would like, I can give you a wild guess as to what happened ( and it really would be a wild guess as the Church stated in the link I provided that nothing has been revealed on this subject).

I personally speculate that evolution was in place to fine tune our mortal bodies until they lived for a certain period of time, were of a certain durability, and were fit for a mortal existence.  God used evolution to adapt humanity to conditions on this Earth.  If people only lived  ten years (like many animals do), it wouldn't be much of a mortal experience, and if people lived 900 years, they would have too much time to be tempted and fall into sin.  While Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden for thousands and thousands of years, evolution was perhaps happening in the outside world, to pre-adamites who were spiritually more animal than man.  Once the fall happened and human souls started entering into the world (which coincides with the date humanity stopped behaving like animals and started living together in civilized society), while Adam and Eve were not really tuned to mortal conditions and wound up living 900 years (way longer than God would want), the children of Adam and Eve started intermarrying with evolved humans, their genetics were intermixed, and their lifespans became more normal.  As a secondary function, the genetic variety introduced by the children of evolved pre-adamites ensured that humanity would not devolve into a bunch of three-eyed mutants from inbreeding.

This would also explain stuff such as, in the Pearl of Great Price, why there were enough people in the world for Cain, one of the sons of Adam, to build an entire city and name it after his son. 

Now, some of the less open minded may say, "this general authority said this!"  That is fine, Bruce R. McConkie has his own opinions on this subject and I have mine.  If the Church issues an official position on this subject (and I mean a true official position, not a guess as to what Church positions should be based on various opinions), I will drop my opinion and fall into line.  But until then, I reserve the right to my own opinion on the matter.

Thats quite the fairytale! I would say that that is about as far from revealed truth as possible but whatever wets your whistle I guess.

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Thats quite the fairytale! I would say that that is about as far from revealed truth as possible but whatever wets your whistle I guess.

I find it telling you loudly declare evolutionists as heretics out of one side of your mouth, despite the Church clearly stating it has no official position whatsoever on the matter, while simultaneously declaring the prophet and apostles are wrong and there are not really three eternal degrees of glory out of the other side of your mouth, despite the fact that this is established and settled Church doctrine confirmed by revelation and virtually all general authorities.

Besides, if everyone according to you is going to the Celestial Kingdom anyways, what does it matter if we believe in evolution or not?

Whatever whets your whistle I guess.

Edited December 20, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Rob Osborn]

47 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Says the man who embraces and regularly peddles the false, heretical, and spiritually dangerous idea that three eternal kingdoms of glory don't really exist and virtually everyone will end up in the celestial kingdom, in clear contradiction of actual revelation and actual church doctrine as stated clearly and repeatedly by all of its general authorities.  Whatever whets your whistle I guess.

At least I can find credible truth in both scripture and the temple with my ideas on heaven. I do think its good that everyone can throw out their opinions. We can at least agree that my supposed heresy is my own opinion and not church doctrine. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

At least I can find credible truth in both scripture and the temple with my ideas on heaven. I do think its good that everyone can throw out their opinions. We can at least agree that my supposed heresy is my own opinion and not church doctrine. 

Except three eternal kingdoms of glory IS clearly pronounced church doctrine and the official position of the church, embraced by prophets and apostles and widely taught in church curriculum.  Deviating from this church doctrine is not a harmless opinion - it is heresy and spiritually dangerous.

By comparison, the Church has clearly stated it has no official position on evolution and there is no official church doctrine on such, so it is perfectly fine to accept the overwhelming scientific evidence that death existed before the fall and there may be something to evolution after all.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[zlllch]

2 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

Once the fall happened and human souls started entering into the world (which coincides with the date humanity stopped behaving like animals and started living together in civilized society)

What date is this specifically? I like your explanation.

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

This would also explain stuff such as, in the Pearl of Great Price, why there were enough people in the world for Cain, one of the sons of Adam, to build an entire city and name it after his son

Yeah that makes a lot of sense!