The Meaning of Atonement


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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dislike the concept of multiple falls. The state of man in the garden before the fall wasnt a fall. 

Wade can correct me if I am wrong, but when I read his first description of his thoughts, though he used the term "Falls" I did not take it that he was actually referencing conditions of the equivalent as the actual fall.  What I got out of it was that with each changing aspect of their existence they were moving further away from the Father.  Thus he was seeing each new set of conditions as a "fall" to a state further from God until finally they moved beyond a threshold which then required a change of magnitude which we consider the actual fall.

There may be some merit in examining each individual state for the implications of the conditions of that state.  For instance some folks have difficulty with the Lectures on faith where it refers to Christ and the Father as the God Head and they claim that Joseph was evolving his ideology of a Godhead.  For myself, I have wondered, if the necessity of the "Holy Ghost is not required until after the fall when mankind is remanded to a telestial state as He, the Holy Ghost,  fills the gap of contact with man when telestial mortality becomes his state of existence. He did not operate in the same fashion during Christ's time on the earth;  after the judgment the Holy Ghost has influence over the telestial state; I question whether he will function in the millennium in the same fashion since Christ will be dwelling on the earth during that time period after the earth receives it's paradisaical glory ie terrestrial glory; the same glory of the Garden of Eden where I also do not perceive his role being represented.  Thus the Godhead as a original concept may have only included the Father and the Son.  

If this should flush out part of the evidence is the state of the Garden of Eden, and the state of existence prior to the Garden being states that do not seem to support the role of a Holy Ghost in the fashion as he operates in a telestial state.  So examining the changes in Adam and Eve's increasingly distant and changing relationship with the Father may provide a vantage for different perceptions. That's what I got out of it anyway.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dislike the concept of multiple falls. The state of man in the garden before the fall wasnt a fall. 

That is understandable given your symbolism-challenged mind. ;)  Those who use but the left side of their brain, and not the right, or in other words, those who do not worship God with ALL their mind and heart, will fail to receive a fullness of light and truth, and may even resist or dislike further light..

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that grasping the various degrees of falls or descending, though The Fall in particular, is critical to an elevated understanding and meaningfulness of the atonement--which is the mechanism for reversing the falling or descending and allows for varying degrees of ascension towards God.  So, I thank you for challenging the idea I presented since it caused me to look more carefully.

More on this later....

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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40 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Wade can correct me if I am wrong, but when I read his first description of his thoughts, though he used the term "Falls" I did not take it that he was actually referencing conditions of the equivalent as the actual fall.  What I got out of it was that with each changing aspect of their existence they were moving further away from the Father.  Thus he was seeing each new set of conditions as a "fall" to a state further from God until finally they moved beyond a threshold which then required a change of magnitude which we consider the actual fall.

There may be some merit in examining each individual state for the implications of the conditions of that state.  For instance some folks have difficulty with the Lectures on faith where it refers to Christ and the Father as the God Head and they claim that Joseph was evolving his ideology of a Godhead.  For myself, I have wondered, if the necessity of the "Holy Ghost is not required until after the fall when mankind is remanded to a telestial state as He, the Holy Ghost,  fills the gap of contact with man when telestial mortality becomes his state of existence. He did not operate in the same fashion during Christ's time on the earth;  after the judgment the Holy Ghost has influence over the telestial state; I question whether he will function in the millennium in the same fashion since Christ will be dwelling on the earth during that time period after the earth receives it's paradisaical glory ie terrestrial glory; the same glory of the Garden of Eden where I also do not perceive his role being represented.  Thus the Godhead as a original concept may have only included the Father and the Son.  

If this should flush out part of the evidence is the state of the Garden of Eden, and the state of existence prior to the Garden being states that do not seem to support the role of a Holy Ghost in the fashion as he operates in a telestial state.  So examining the changes in Adam and Eve's increasingly distant and changing relationship with the Father may provide a vantage for different perceptions. That's what I got out of it anyway.

But moving slowly in steps away from the Father doesnt make a lot of sense. In the gospel we describe the fall as a sudden one step process. Our earth fell from Gods presence to where we are now. To suggest that the era in the garden before the fall was already becoming distant from the Father suggests that man was sinning before he was tempted. I dont buy it.

The thoughts about the godhead is interesting. I have always had a hard time conceptualizing the Holy Ghost as one single personage. I have always felt that the Lectures on Faith description of the HG is most correct descibing the HG as the mind and will of God and Jesus Christ. In the scriptures the HG is often described as "it". An "it" is not a person let alone God. Perhaps we dont yet quite understand the HG. 

I understand the three kingdoms quite well. We are in the first kingdom now. Levels of separation according to each kingdom makes sense. What doesnt make sense though is that we fell from one higher kingdom to increasingly lower kingdoms until we got here.

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51 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That is understandable given your symbolism-challenged mind. ;)  Those who use but the left side of their brain, and not the right, or in other words, those who do not worship God with ALL their mind and heart, will fail to receive a fullness of light and truth, and may even resist or dislike further light..

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that grasping the various degrees of falls or descending, though The Fall in particular, is critical to an elevated understanding and meaningfulness of the atonement--which is the mechanism for reversing the falling or descending and allows for varying degrees of ascension towards God.  So, I thank you for challenging the idea I presented since it caused me to look more carefully.

More on this later....

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Really? You think because I dont agree with your theory I am somehow not worshiping God with all my heart and in turn are rejecting light and may thus reject further light?

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3 hours ago, brlenox said:

Wade can correct me if I am wrong, but when I read his first description of his thoughts, though he used the term "Falls" I did not take it that he was actually referencing conditions of the equivalent as the actual fall.  What I got out of it was that with each changing aspect of their existence they were moving further away from the Father.  Thus he was seeing each new set of conditions as a "fall" to a state further from God until finally they moved beyond a threshold which then required a change of magnitude which we consider the actual fall.

There may be some merit in examining each individual state for the implications of the conditions of that state.  For instance some folks have difficulty with the Lectures on faith where it refers to Christ and the Father as the God Head and they claim that Joseph was evolving his ideology of a Godhead.  For myself, I have wondered, if the necessity of the "Holy Ghost is not required until after the fall when mankind is remanded to a telestial state as He, the Holy Ghost,  fills the gap of contact with man when telestial mortality becomes his state of existence. He did not operate in the same fashion during Christ's time on the earth;  after the judgment the Holy Ghost has influence over the telestial state; I question whether he will function in the millennium in the same fashion since Christ will be dwelling on the earth during that time period after the earth receives it's paradisaical glory ie terrestrial glory; the same glory of the Garden of Eden where I also do not perceive his role being represented.  Thus the Godhead as a original concept may have only included the Father and the Son.  

If this should flush out part of the evidence is the state of the Garden of Eden, and the state of existence prior to the Garden being states that do not seem to support the role of a Holy Ghost in the fashion as he operates in a telestial state.  So examining the changes in Adam and Eve's increasingly distant and changing relationship with the Father may provide a vantage for different perceptions. That's what I got out of it anyway.

Yes. Nicely said.

And, I intend to extend things further with the notion of the light of Christ, priesthoods, covenants, ordinances, prayer, etc.

As the falling or descending or separating from the presence of God occurs, made possible by the Creation(s), the loving Father strives to maintain as much personal contact with His children as possible. By this I mean, while His children may leave His presence by going down to the Garden on earth, He may still visit or converse with them, and give them the presence of His Son. And, when they Fall from the Garden down to Christ's earthly kingdom (gospel/covenant relationship),  He may still converse with them through his Son, and also have His Son visit them (most oft by means of Christ's ministers from heaven and on earth) along with also Gifting them with the presence of the Holy Ghost as well as providing them with the light of Christ. And, when they fall from Christ's earthly kingdom down to the kingdoms of men, He is still open to conversing with them through visitation from his Holy Spirit as well as earthly ministers (missionaries) and through the presence of the light of Christ.  It is only when they fully fall from the kingdom of men down to the kingdom of Satan (i.e. outer darkness), that He loses contact all together. (This is a rough sketch at the moment)

I believe the Father is able to maintain diminishing degrees of contact with His children as they separate or fall or descend from HIm, and this by virtue of the infinite and eternal atonement--without which HIs children would have been lost to Him forever. And, it is also by virtue of the same atonement that the way is open to ascending degrees of contact, with the ultimate potential of bringing His children back in His presence forever.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Really? You think because I dont agree with your theory I am somehow not worshiping God with all my heart and in turn are rejecting light and may thus reject further light?

You got the cause/effect exactly backwards. It is because you aren't worshiping God with all your heart and mind that you don't agree with the further light I am sharing (I can't take credit for it as "mine").

Please don't take my word for it. In many ways you are probably a better man than me, and so you have the same or more avenues of access to God and his light. Allow the seed of faith to be planted, and see if it swells and grows to bear sweet and edifying fruit.

In other words, the good news is that there is way open for you, as with me, to ascend from your somewhat fallen state. ;) 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

You got the cause/effect exactly backwards. It is because you aren't worshiping God with all your heart and mind that you don't agree with the further light I am sharing (I can't take credit for it as "mine").

Please don't take my word for it. In many ways you are probably a better man than me, and so you have the same or more avenues of access to God and his light. Allow the seed of faith to be planted, and see if it swells and grows to bear sweet and edifying fruit.

In other words, the good news is that there is way open for you, as with me, to ascend from your somewhat fallen state. ;) 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I am pretty sure the things you are sharing arent light, especially our dialogue right now.

I understand about worshiping God fully well. Its about serving our fellow man and that through this service (charity) we receivevrevelation. That which has been revealed to me isnt the same as what you are telling me. Perhaps we are just misunderstandinf each other but I feel a condescending spirit from you and thus its notvthe true spirit.

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am pretty sure the things you are sharing arent light, especially our dialogue right now.

I understand about worshiping God fully well. Its about serving our fellow man and that through this service (charity) we receivevrevelation. That which has been revealed to me isnt the same as what you are telling me. Perhaps we are just misunderstandinf each other but I feel a condescending spirit from you and thus its notvthe true spirit.

Sounds good. The "condescending spirit" was tongue-in-cheek, a gentle ribbing, and was only intended to stir thoughts and to open minds. I am fine with leaving each to their own, while adding a firm "amen" to what you said about service and revelation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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13 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Sounds good. The "condescending spirit" was tongue-in-cheek, a gentle ribbing, and was only intended to stir thoughts and to open minds. I am fine with leaving each to their own, while adding a firm "amen" to what you said about service and revelation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You have the kindness and patience of a true saint . . . 

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I have created a rough draft spreadsheet delineating the aforementioned "falls." Feel free to offer corrections, additions, etc. (Please note the gradations from light to dark, which not only represents geographic proximity or distance down and away from the Father, but also proximity or distance in terms of spiritual maturity/imaturity as well as righteousness vs corruption, etc. It also represents the varying degrees of life and death.

However, when I revise the spreadsheet, I will include a column designating the types of deaths associated with each fall.)

I plan to create a spreadsheet delineating the "ascensions." It will be similar to the "falls," though instead of Spirit Creations, it will be replaced with a section on the Spirit World, and I will add an additional section on the Resurrection.  And, under Earthly Creations, i will replace the row on the Garden event with one on for translated humans

The intent behind this is to provide a more in-depth structure for discussing the Three Gardens, along with other "gardens." in relation to the mechanics of the atonement. And, in conjunction with the gardens, we can look more closely at the associated "trees" (life, knowledge of good and evil, etc.)

The Falls.jpg

Thanks, -Wade  Englund-

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7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

But moving slowly in steps away from the Father doesnt make a lot of sense. In the gospel we describe the fall as a sudden one step process. Our earth fell from Gods presence to where we are now. To suggest that the era in the garden before the fall was already becoming distant from the Father suggests that man was sinning before he was tempted. I dont buy it.

The thoughts about the godhead is interesting. I have always had a hard time conceptualizing the Holy Ghost as one single personage. I have always felt that the Lectures on Faith description of the HG is most correct descibing the HG as the mind and will of God and Jesus Christ. In the scriptures the HG is often described as "it". An "it" is not a person let alone God. Perhaps we dont yet quite understand the HG. 

I understand the three kingdoms quite well. We are in the first kingdom now. Levels of separation according to each kingdom makes sense. What doesnt make sense though is that we fell from one higher kingdom to increasingly lower kingdoms until we got here.

Few people understand the story of Uzzah in it's fullness preferring to cite the concept of steadying the Arc and thinking they have covered the essence of what the story has to offer.  The story is far from limited to that singular interpretation but is instead a process of making individual decisions that take one further and further away from the instructions of the Lord until finally the Lord must reign in the constant malfeasance of the people in authority and Uzzah is sacrificed in order to bring the people back into line.  In principle it is similar to Wade's ideology.

Additionally, we need not be afraid of at least accepting the obvious for its possible implications on the whole of the narrative.  We know for instance that Adam and Eve were organized in a celestial state. 

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“When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. . . . the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. . . . When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal” (Young, Brigham, Journal of Discourses 1:50, emphasis in original).”

We also know that the Garden of Eden was a Terrestrial State. 

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“Terrestrial earth. ‘We believe … that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.’ (Tenth Article of Faith.) Thus, the earth is to go back to the primeval, paradisiacal, or terrestrial state that prevailed in the days of the Garden of Eden. Accompanying this transition to its millennial status the earth is to be burned, that is, receive its baptism of fire. It will then be a new heaven and a new earth, and again health, peace, and joy will prevail upon its face. (D. & C. 101:23–32; Isa. 65:17–25; Mal. 3:1–6; 4:1–6; Man: Joseph Fielding Smith, His Origin and Destiny, pp. 380–397.)

Why would Adam and Eve be placed in a terrestrial State? We may not have at our fingertips an explicit statement that says that Adam and Eve were placed in a Terrestrial State because he could not spell the word celestial. However we have principles that describe certain others who are rewarded with a terrestrial state and the reason why:  

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Every man lives for himself. Adam was made to open the way of the world, and for dressing the garden. Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood; and the Son of God came into the world to redeem it from the fall. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This eternal truth settles the question of all men's religion. A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. He may receive a glory like unto the moon, [i.e., of which the light of the moon is typical], or a star, [i.e., of which the light of the stars is typical], but he can never come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, unless he becomes as a little child, and is taught by the Spirit of God. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.12) 

Is it possible that, even though they possessed celestial bodies, once they were organized into physical bodies that they fell below the requirements of a Celestial state in that they had not received baptism by fire and of the spirit.  They haven't sinned or anything.  They have not otherwise erred but a Celestial state of an accountable being is only available to one who has received these baptisms.  So we see even Christ required such though he also had never sinned.  

Finally, after the fall and their transgression they are remanded to a state of the telestial existence as that is the only location where those who shed innocent blood can dwell. 

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When the Lord paraphrases the language of Rev. 21:8 in latter-day revelation (D. & C. 63:17-18 and 76:103-106) he omits murderers from the list of evil persons. Their inclusion here by John, however, coupled with the fact that only those who deny the truth after receiving a perfect knowledge of it shall become sons of perdition, is a clear indication that murderers shall eventually go to the telestial kingdom, unless of course there are some among those destined to be sons of perdition who are also murderers.  (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3: 585)

While I am not arguing Wade's ideas are perfectly correct, as I do not know having not given any more consideration other than to the creation of this post and some tangential considerations, I nonetheless recognize the obvious observation that Adam and Eve traveled completely down the list of Kingdoms from the top unto the bottom a level at a time and they have the opportunity to reverse and return along the path they came.  I am sure that he is correct that each one of these stations was merited and not arbitrarily assigned as that is not God.  Whether it is exactly as I am illustrating here, I do not know - I am simply drawing upon some similar thoughts and knowledge of the words of the prophets which could be construed in this fashion. Based on your theology that everyone is saved, none of this is even plausible to you unless you ignore an awful lot of commentary from apostles and prophets.  However, I can see something of possibility in these things.

Edited by brlenox
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5 hours ago, brlenox said:

Few people understand the story of Uzzah in it's fullness preferring to cite the concept of steadying the Arc and thinking they have covered the essence of what the story has to offer.  The story is far from limited to that singular interpretation but is instead a process of making individual decisions that take one further and further away from the instructions of the Lord until finally the Lord must reign in the constant malfeasance of the people in authority and Uzzah is sacrificed in order to bring the people back into line.  In principle it is similar to Wade's ideology.

Additionally, we need not be afraid of at least accepting the obvious for its possible implications on the whole of the narrative.  We know for instance that Adam and Eve were organized in a celestial state. 

We also know that the Garden of Eden was a Terrestrial State. 

Why would Adam and Eve be placed in a terrestrial State? We may not have at our fingertips an explicit statement that says that Adam and Eve were placed in a Terrestrial State because he could not spell the word celestial. However we have principles that describe certain others who are rewarded with a terrestrial state and the reason why:  

Is it possible that, even though they possessed celestial bodies, once they were organized into physical bodies that they fell below the requirements of a Celestial state in that they had not received baptism by fire and of the spirit.  They haven't sinned or anything.  They have not otherwise erred but a Celestial state of an accountable being is only available to one who has received these baptisms.  So we see even Christ required such though he also had never sinned.  

Finally, after the fall and their transgression they are remanded to a state of the telestial existence as that is the only location where those who shed innocent blood can dwell. 

While I am not arguing Wade's ideas are perfectly correct, as I do not know having not given any more consideration other than to the creation of this post and some tangential considerations, I nonetheless recognize the obvious observation that Adam and Eve traveled completely down the list of Kingdoms from the top unto the bottom a level at a time and they have the opportunity to reverse and return along the path they came.  I am sure that he is correct that each one of these stations was merited and not arbitrarily assigned as that is not God.  Whether it is exactly as I am illustrating here, I do not know - I am simply drawing upon some similar thoughts and knowledge of the words of the prophets which could be construed in this fashion. Based on your theology that everyone is saved, none of this is even plausible to you unless you ignore an awful lot of commentary from apostles and prophets.  However, I can see something of possibility in these things.

Not sure where you get this idea that you think my theology is that everyone gets saved. Where does that come from? My theology in regards to salvation is the belief that those who believe, repent, and are baptized are saved while those who fail in those things are not saved from te eternal hell that awsits the unrepentant and ungodly.

We are not told specifically in scripture what state or kingdom the earth was in at the time of its creation. Thats important to know to expound upon. We know the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisicial glory. It doesnt state we will revert back to the glory it had when it was first created before Adam and Eve fell. Opinions aside from various prophets, where in scripture may we know the earth had terrestrial glory during the garden events? There are none. We know the very Father conversed face to face with Adam in the garden. Symbolicly then, the earth was in a perfect celestial state as it had the presence of the Father and the Son. Is this not correct?

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12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

One other thing to consider is that the tree of life is symbolic in placement to a celestial order and not a terrestrial or telestial state. Only the celestial have access to the tree of life.

Is this your opinion or do you have resources that say this. There are several that say something else.  But I'll wait to see what you provide.

The essence of your statement is correct, only those of a Celestial order will partake of the tree of life, however, it was a part of the terrestrial order in which the
Garden of Eden was placed and will return to such when the earth reaches it's paradisaical glory and the City of Enoch returns to the earth. 

Edited by brlenox
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3 hours ago, brlenox said:

Is this your opinion or do you have resources that say this. There are several that say something else.  But I'll wait to see what you provide.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
            2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
            
            3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (Rev. 22:1-3)

This is in direct reference to the vision John sees of the Celestial kingdom where the Father and the Lambs thrones are. It is here where the tree of life is. The fruit of the tree is "eternal life". Only those going to celestial glory will receive this greatest gift of eternal life.

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2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
            2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
            
            3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (Rev. 22:1-3)

This is in direct reference to the vision John sees of the Celestial kingdom where the Father and the Lambs thrones are. It is here where the tree of life is. The fruit of the tree is "eternal life". Only those going to celestial glory will receive this greatest gift of eternal life.

Excellent reference.  I can see clearly your perspective.  However, we should consider the timing of this event versus the timing of other events.  For instance when the earth is returned to it's paradisaical glory is the first instance where we find reference to the Tree of Life being returned to the earth:

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The tree of life will be on the earth in the midst of that city that will descend on the earth, and whoever eats of the fruit of that tree will live forever, just the same as the tree of life was placed upon the earth before Adam transgressed. Any one eating of the fruit of that tree could not die, for the decree of the Lord had gone forth, and his word must be fulfilled. ((Pratt, Orson, JD 21:327–28).)

My first quote in the previous post establishes the Garden of Eden as a terrestrial state and the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden. This quote also establishes it's location as that of the Garden of Eden which will be part of the city that descends to the earth...ie. the city of Enoch when it returns. 

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1 hour ago, brlenox said:

Excellent reference.  I can see clearly your perspective.  However, we should consider the timing of this event versus the timing of other events.  For instance when the earth is returned to it's paradisaical glory is the first instance where we find reference to the Tree of Life being returned to the earth:

My first quote in the previous post establishes the Garden of Eden as a terrestrial state and the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden. This quote also establishes it's location as that of the Garden of Eden which will be part of the city that descends to the earth...ie. the city of Enoch when it returns. 

Perhaps some conjecture on the timing and place. We know the fruit of the tree of life represents eternal life. Eternal life comes when? Here-

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
            27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:26-28)

In Revelations it speaks of the tree of life as a reward for those who overcometh all things. Modern day revelation teaches that it will not be until the end of the millennium (terrestrial kingdom) that Christ will have overcome all things, the last of which is death, both physical and spiritual for all mankind. Its at this point, and not before, that man can overcome all things as their bodies all will be quickened to celestial glory. This is part of a longer passage describing the rewards or state of man who overcomes all things. Note that they all describe the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom-

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God (Rev 2:7)

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death (Rev 2:11)

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. (Rev 2:17)

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
            27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
            28 And I will give him the morning star. (Rev 2:26-28)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:5)

 

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev 3:12)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3:21)

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev 21:7)

These are all things pertaining to the celestial order. Symbolicly we could break down the definitions of where on this earth we may find telestial, terrestrial, and celestial inhabitations. These may include church houses, our homes, temples, places within the temple, etc. These places are associated with covenants and levels of commitment. Covenants help us overcome all things. That culminates at the veil where upon entrance we are pronounced clean and worthy having overcome all things. And where is that in the world? The celestial room in the temple. Up until this point we have not overcome all things.

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17 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

One other thing to consider is that the tree of life is symbolic in placement to a celestial order and not a terrestrial or telestial state. Only the celestial have access to the tree of life.

Regarding Lehi''s dream: "

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Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, in his work Christ and the New Covenant....he writes, “The Spirit made explicit that the Tree of Life and its precious fruit are symbols of Christ’s redemption.” [1] (Lehi's Dream as a Template for Understanding Each Act of Nephi's Vision+)

If Elder Holland is correct about the tree in Lehi's dream being the Tree of Life, and that it represents redemption, then it, and its fruit, have been available here on telestial earth.

As intimated earlier, it might prove useful within the discussion on the meaning of the atonement, to not just consider the issue in relation to the Three Gardens, but also in relation to the various trees. If Elder Holland is correct, then the Tree of Life was a part of all three Gardens. The fact that the atonement was infinite and eternal, makes that possible--in that it was in force eternally before as well as after the great and last sacrifice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps some conjecture on the timing and place. We know the fruit of the tree of life represents eternal life. Eternal life comes when? Here-

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
            27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:26-28)

In Revelations it speaks of the tree of life as a reward for those who overcometh all things. Modern day revelation teaches that it will not be until the end of the millennium (terrestrial kingdom) that Christ will have overcome all things, the last of which is death, both physical and spiritual for all mankind. Its at this point, and not before, that man can overcome all things as their bodies all will be quickened to celestial glory. This is part of a longer passage describing the rewards or state of man who overcomes all things. Note that they all describe the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom-

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God (Rev 2:7)

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death (Rev 2:11)

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. (Rev 2:17)

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
            27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
            28 And I will give him the morning star. (Rev 2:26-28)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:5)

 

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev 3:12)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3:21)

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev 21:7)

These are all things pertaining to the celestial order. Symbolicly we could break down the definitions of where on this earth we may find telestial, terrestrial, and celestial inhabitations. These may include church houses, our homes, temples, places within the temple, etc. These places are associated with covenants and levels of commitment. Covenants help us overcome all things. That culminates at the veil where upon entrance we are pronounced clean and worthy having overcome all things. And where is that in the world? The celestial room in the temple. Up until this point we have not overcome all things.

Let's try this.  Will the tree of life be found on the earth after it has been returned to its paradisaical glory?

Is that statement relative to the Garden of Eden in it's terrestrial state? 

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33 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Let's try this.  Will the tree of life be found on the earth after it has been returned to its paradisaical glory?

Is that statement relative to the Garden of Eden in it's terrestrial state? 

The tree of life as spoken of by John in revelation refers to the tree on the celestial earth and its fruit is eternal life. That "paradise" spoken of in his revelation is the paradise within his kingdom. There is some confusion because of the word paradise but to reinforce the truth John reveals that this tree is spoken of on the celestialized earth.

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38 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Regarding Lehi''s dream: "

If Elder Holland is correct about the tree in Lehi's dream being the Tree of Life, and that it represents redemption, then it, and its fruit, have been available here on telestial earth.

As intimated earlier, it might prove useful within the discussion on the meaning of the atonement, to not just consider the issue in relation to the Three Gardens, but also in relation to the various trees. If Elder Holland is correct, then the Tree of Life was a part of all three Gardens. The fact that the atonement was infinite and eternal, makes that possible--in that it was in force eternally before as well as after the great and last sacrifice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Perhaps theres different trees, symbolisms, etc. The tree of life spoken of in Revelations however refers to that very tree in the garden of Eden of eternal life.

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48 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The tree of life as spoken of by John in revelation refers to the tree on the celestial earth and its fruit is eternal life. That "paradise" spoken of in his revelation is the paradise within his kingdom. There is some confusion because of the word paradise but to reinforce the truth John reveals that this tree is spoken of on the celestialized earth.

 

45 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps theres different trees, symbolisms, etc. The tree of life spoken of in Revelations however refers to that very tree in the garden of Eden of eternal life.

This will be my final post on this aspect of the tree of life.  The confusion is because you are not willing to let the prophets guide your understanding.  And when has the Garden of Eden ever been considered a construct of the celestial kingdom? It is a clarified earlier a location on a terrestrial plane. So as you have stated above "The tree of life spoken of in Revelations however refers to that very tree in the garden of Eden of eternal life." I can go with this as long as you are interpreting this to reference the Garden of Eden as a locale in a terrestrial sphere.

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Regarding Lehi''s dream: "

If Elder Holland is correct about the tree in Lehi's dream being the Tree of Life, and that it represents redemption, then it, and its fruit, have been available here on telestial earth.

As intimated earlier, it might prove useful within the discussion on the meaning of the atonement, to not just consider the issue in relation to the Three Gardens, but also in relation to the various trees. If Elder Holland is correct, then the Tree of Life was a part of all three Gardens. The fact that the atonement was infinite and eternal, makes that possible--in that it was in force eternally before as well as after the great and last sacrifice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

As in all symbolism, we have to determine literal interpretation and figurative.  In the case of the Tree of Life there is a literal definition ascribed to an actual living tree.  In the scriptures there is also the tree of life as it references the Son of God.  Each performs similar functions. Where the doctrine might best intersect with the Atonement is definitely going to be the scriptural symbolism's for Jesus Christ.  However, as it relates to the atonement and the process of the earth falling through the various levels as you have identified the literal tree of life is an integral part of the process.  It is not just that it is present but it has a function and a purpose for being part of the return to the paradisaical glory of the earth.

Yes the tree of life ultimately resides in a celestial sphere, when the earth completes its final transition to a celestial glory.  However, as it applies to this discussion where we have been examining the transitions of the states in which Adam and Eve "fell" through, the tree of life should be realized to be an integral aspect of the processes required for the earth to begin the transitions back up the various states from which it originated.  Only for that cause to I seek the precision of understanding that gives every thing its proper place in the proper sequence of events.  Please consider:

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“When the reign of Jesus Christ comes during the millennium, only those who have lived the telestial law will be removed. The earth will be cleansed of all its corruption and wickedness. Those who have lived virtuous lives, who have been honest in their dealings with their fellow man and have endeavored to do good to the best of their understanding, shall remain” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:62)

The key elements is that the earth will be cleansed of it's corruption. This quote following from the Times and Seasons is discussing the process of restablishing Zion as part of the millennial events:

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The earth has to be redeemed by the power of God, through the medium of the priesthood; the priesthood in heaven and on earth combined. And ever since the fall of man, in the different ages of the world, men clothed with the priesthood. have had a view of this subject: poets have sung about it, and prophets have prophesied of it; it has engaged the pencil of the artist, the tongue of the learned, and the pen of the scribe; and if ever the souls of the prophets were fired with the spirit of God it was when they prophesied of the mountains dropping down sweet wine, and the wilderness blossoming as the rose, when the lion and the lamb should lay down together, and the earth be filled with the knowledge of God as the water" cover the sea. When Zion should be established in glory, and all nations flock to her standard. When the temple of God should be reared, and the waters of life flow from its threshold; when the tree of life should be planted, and the leaves thereof be for the healing of the nations; when the inhabitants of Zion should dwell in safety, and no more say I am sick and Jerusalem become the throne of the Lord: Times and Seasons vol 4.

What is fascinating is this quote above and this verse below speak to the exact same model if one is aware of the symbolism involved. The quote speaks to the priesthood, the verse speaks to 12 manner of fruits.  Twelve is always a symbol for fullness in the priesthood, the tree however is for the healing processes that will be required to renew the earth.

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Revelations 22:2

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

So for exactness in understanding the tree of life will be reestablished as part of the transitioning process to reinitiate conditions to those of the Garden of Eden. IT is preparatory to moving the earth to its celestial state.  The scriptural analogies speak to the partaking of the fruit which as Rob is addressing is as aspect of exaltation but a complete understanding must embrace these additional facets of which we are discussing as they relate to the literal tree of life.

Edited by brlenox
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I should add that I am not committed to any of this material on the Tree of Life.  It is not material that I have studied out properly to claim any clear spiritual insight on and I may be just as likely to be wrong as I am right.  I have research that I began some years ago but put aside and did not complete the process of fully giving proper consideration.

Edited by brlenox
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1 hour ago, brlenox said:

As in all symbolism, we have to determine literal interpretation and figurative.  In the case of the Tree of Life there is a literal definition ascribed to an actual living tree.  In the scriptures there is also the tree of life as it references the Son of God.  

Good point. It is the difference between the literal Tree of Life within the Garden mentioned in Alma 12:21-26 and the figurative tree of life offered to all fallen mankind as alluded to in Lehi's dream and overtly mentioned in Alma 5:34,62--the process aspect somewhat explained in Alma 33:23 (as delineated in Alma 32:26-43). There is also the figurative interpretation of the tree of life in the Garden, as mentioned in 2 Ne 2:35. Fascinating.

I have noticed in my research that in addition to Christ being likened unto a tree, so also are men and households of men--the parables of olive tree and orchard come to mind as well as "by their fruit..." and "every tree that bringeth forth not good fruit.."

And, in terms of redemption, I suppose it isn't coincidental that Christ was hung upon a tree.

Do you suppose that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was also a literal tree in the Garden?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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