The Meaning of Atonement


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18 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Good point. It is the difference between the literal Tree of Life within the Garden mentioned in Alma 12:21-26 and the figurative tree of life offered to all fallen mankind as alluded to in Lehi's dream and overtly mentioned in Alma 5:34,62--the process aspect somewhat explained in Alma 33:23 (as delineated in Alma 32:26-43). There is also the figurative interpretation of the tree of life in the Garden, as mentioned in 2 Ne 2:35. Fascinating.

I have noticed in my research that in addition to Christ being likened unto a tree, so also are men and households of men--the parables of olive tree and orchard come to mind as well as "by their fruit..." and "every tree that bringeth forth not good fruit.."

And, in terms of redemption, I suppose it isn't coincidental that Christ was hung upon a tree.

Do you suppose that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was also a literal tree in the Garden?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I was doing the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil at the same time in my study.  There is ample commentary of Adam and Eve actually eating a fruit which altered body chemistry and of course there is much to support figurative interpretations.  I however must claim that at this time I do not know if it is both figurative and literal depending on usage or if it is one or the other.  Looks like it is up to you to provide the insight.

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2 hours ago, brlenox said:

 

This will be my final post on this aspect of the tree of life.  The confusion is because you are not willing to let the prophets guide your understanding.  And when has the Garden of Eden ever been considered a construct of the celestial kingdom? It is a clarified earlier a location on a terrestrial plane. So as you have stated above "The tree of life spoken of in Revelations however refers to that very tree in the garden of Eden of eternal life." I can go with this as long as you are interpreting this to reference the Garden of Eden as a locale in a terrestrial sphere.

As in all symbolism, we have to determine literal interpretation and figurative.  In the case of the Tree of Life there is a literal definition ascribed to an actual living tree.  In the scriptures there is also the tree of life as it references the Son of God.  Each performs similar functions. Where the doctrine might best intersect with the Atonement is definitely going to be the scriptural symbolism's for Jesus Christ.  However, as it relates to the atonement and the process of the earth falling through the various levels as you have identified the literal tree of life is an integral part of the process.  It is not just that it is present but it has a function and a purpose for being part of the return to the paradisaical glory of the earth.

Yes the tree of life ultimately resides in a celestial sphere, when the earth completes its final transition to a celestial glory.  However, as it applies to this discussion where we have been examining the transitions of the states in which Adam and Eve "fell" through, the tree of life should be realized to be an integral aspect of the processes required for the earth to begin the transitions back up the various states from which it originated.  Only for that cause to I seek the precision of understanding that gives every thing its proper place in the proper sequence of events.  Please consider:

The key elements is that the earth will be cleansed of it's corruption. This quote following from the Times and Seasons is discussing the process of restablishing Zion as part of the millennial events:

What is fascinating is this quote above and this verse below speak to the exact same model if one is aware of the symbolism involved. The quote speaks to the priesthood, the verse speaks to 12 manner of fruits.  Twelve is always a symbol for fullness in the priesthood, the tree however is for the healing processes that will be required to renew the earth.

So for exactness in understanding the tree of life will be reestablished as part of the transitioning process to reinitiate conditions to those of the Garden of Eden. IT is preparatory to moving the earth to its celestial state.  The scriptural analogies speak to the partaking of the fruit which as Rob is addressing is as aspect of exaltation but a complete understanding must embrace these additional facets of which we are discussing as they relate to the literal tree of life.

I dont want to nitpick too much but Revelations chapters 21-22 is the description of the celestial kingdom that comes after the millennium, resuurection and judgement spoken of in chapter 20. You have to read them in order to understand that this new city spoken of is in fact the Fathers kingdom (celestial) because it describes both the Father and Son sitting in their thrown in the city. Where else does it speak of Christ and the Father sitting on their throne? Here-

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever.

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
            108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.
            2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;
            3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

(Excerpts from D&C section 76 and 137)

There can be no doubt that the Revelation John saw as recorded in ch. 21-22 is the same vision Joseph Smith saw in section 137. They both describe the same gate through which the celestial heirs enter the holy city where God (the Father) and the Lambs throne resides. Important here according to section 76 as it clarifies is that Christ doesnt sit on his throne of glory until he delvers up the kingdom spotless at the end of the millennium. Until this point Christ is still preparing the kingdom for eternal life which is the greatest gift God gives to the celestial inhabitants.

One other area of problems is this lack of understanding on what telestial, terrestrial and celestial laws are. If we remember that God doesnt make carnal laws it becomes much easier to understand. For instance, we make covenants according to the kingdom of laws in the temple. But, each one of those covenants we make in the three kingdoms pertain all to the higher law and in their fulness make up the higher laws. For instance, the law of chastity is a telestial law and obedience to that covenant brings blessings. But they do not go away in the terrestrial kingdom, we just make more covenants that are added upon. In the temple we make covenants that qualify us to enter into the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial in that order. The test at the veil includes all covenants and laws in each progressive kingdom.

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4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont want to nitpick too much but Revelations chapters 21-22 is the description of the celestial kingdom that comes after the millennium, resuurection and judgement spoken of in chapter 20. You have to read them in order to understand that this new city spoken of is in fact the Fathers kingdom (celestial) because it describes both the Father and Son sitting in their thrown in the city. Where else does it speak of Christ and the Father sitting on their throne? Here-

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever.

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
            108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.
            2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;
            3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

(Excerpts from D&C section 76 and 137)

There can be no doubt that the Revelation John saw as recorded in ch. 21-22 is the same vision Joseph Smith saw in section 137. They both describe the same gate through which the celestial heirs enter the holy city where God (the Father) and the Lambs throne resides. Important here according to section 76 as it clarifies is that Christ doesnt sit on his throne of glory until he delvers up the kingdom spotless at the end of the millennium. Until this point Christ is still preparing the kingdom for eternal life which is the greatest gift God gives to the celestial inhabitants.

One other area of problems is this lack of understanding on what telestial, terrestrial and celestial laws are. If we remember that God doesnt make carnal laws it becomes much easier to understand. For instance, we make covenants according to the kingdom of laws in the temple. But, each one of those covenants we make in the three kingdoms pertain all to the higher law and in their fulness make up the higher laws. For instance, the law of chastity is a telestial law and obedience to that covenant brings blessings. But they do not go away in the terrestrial kingdom, we just make more covenants that are added upon. In the temple we make covenants that qualify us to enter into the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial in that order. The test at the veil includes all covenants and laws in each progressive kingdom.

Rob, you have to remember that the context for this discussion has been Wade's idea that there were transitional states involved in aspects of the fall.  I provided material to explain possibilities for that transition.  There are tangents to every discussion, but if we all stay on the same page and maintain the same context it will mitigate some of the back and forth of trying to sustain what is actually two entirely different aspects of the discussion.

 

Edited by brlenox
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5 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Rob, you have to remember that the context for this discussion has been Wade's idea that there were transitional states involved in aspects of the fall.  I provided material to explain possibilities for that transition.  There are tangents to every discussion, but if we all stay on the same page and maintain the same context it will mitigate some of the back and forth of trying to sustain what is actually two entirely different aspects of the discussion.

 

I think it all pertains to the same point. That point of debate as Wade was suggesting is a stepped fall that begins by Adam being placed in the garden. I disagree, I dont believe there was any element of spiritual fall in Adams placement into the garden to dress and keep it. In fact I am inclined to believe it was a step up in responsibility, power and glory from his previous position. If that is true it would then run exactly contrary to Wades theory. 

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I think one large mistake is made in equating the earth attaining its paradisicial glory with how conditions were on the earth before the fall. Even though we may term the garden of Eden as a type of paradise its not the paradise spoken of or equating to the terrestrial kingdom (millennium). In fact, the scriptures dont actually state the earth being renewed at the beginning of the millennium to the same glory the earth had before the fall. I think over time a few bad connections were made and its stuck with us over time. It has no scriptural backing though.

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Another aspect of the earth during the millennium which separates it from the glory of the earth in the garden of Eden before the fall is that during the millennium there will still be death although they shall not sleep in the grave but be twinkled or changed instantly at that pount of death. Before the fall the earth was in a perfect state having no death. It was immortal. To me this proves that the creation fell from a celestial state to the telestial state we are now in with one step. Our path back now includes an intermediate step between the two to get back to the celestial. This middle kingdom or step is what bridges the gap in making our return possible as it is in that middle kingdom where we become perfected. The "renewal" of the earth is a two step process. Once at the beginning of the millennium and one at the end. The point is to get the creation back to the point it was when it was perfect and immortal in Gods presence.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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53 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think it all pertains to the same point. That point of debate as Wade was suggesting is a stepped fall that begins by Adam being placed in the garden. I disagree, I dont believe there was any element of spiritual fall in Adams placement into the garden to dress and keep it. In fact I am inclined to believe it was a step up in responsibility, power and glory from his previous position. If that is true it would then run exactly contrary to Wades theory. 

Where did you get the belief that a "fall," or the Fall, is about responsibility and power rather than change in bodily nature and separation from the presence of the Father?

By extension, what does responsibility and power have to do with the atonement or redemption?

Do you at least agree that Adam and Eve went from living in the heavenly presence of the Father, to living DOWN on earth, thereby "falling"  away from the Father presence,, and that they went from living a celestial existence as spirits, to being clothed in a terrestrial body and living in a terrestrial world? And, would you agree that a terestial body and existence is a step DOWN, or a "fall" DOWN from a celestial body and existence?

Thanks, -Wade Englund

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2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Where did you get the belief that a "fall," or the Fall, is about responsibility and power rather than change in bodily nature and separation from the presence of the Father?

By extension, what does responsibility and power have to do with the atonement or redemption?

Do you at least agree that Adam and Eve went from living in the heavenly presence of the Father, to living DOWN on earth, thereby "falling"  away from the Father presence,, and that they went from living a celestial existence as spirits, to being clothed in a terrestrial body and living in a terrestrial world? And, would you agree that a terestial body and existence is a step DOWN, or a "fall" DOWN from a celestial body and existence?

Thanks, -Wade Englund

Not sure what you are saying in your first part, perhaps in answer to the second part answers both-

There was no "falling" away from the Fathers presence in coming down to the earth. This is where we disagree. Read my previous post, the earth was created perfect and immortal and remained perfect and immortal until the fall of Adam and Eve by giving in to Satans temptation to eat when they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That is not a terrestrial state as the terrestrial state includes mortality. Adam and Eve had celestial bodies (perfect and immortal, could not age nor die) until the fall.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Another aspect of the earth during the millennium which separates it from the glory of the earth in the garden of Eden before the fall is that during the millennium there will still be death although they shall not sleep in the grave but be twinkled or changed instantly at that pount of death. Before the fall the earth was in a perfect state having no death. It was immortal. To me this proves that the creation fell from a celestial state to the telestial state we are now in with one step. Our path back now includes an intermediate step between the two to get back to the celestial. This middle kingdom or step is what bridges the gap in making our return possible as it is in that middle kingdom where we become perfected. The "renewal" of the earth is a two step process. Once at the beginning of the millennium and one at the end. The point is to get the creation back to the point it was when it was perfect and immortal in Gods presence.

Are you equating the nature of the pre-fall earth with the nature of the Garden of Eden? Are you assuming the two are one and the same?

As for death not occurring pre-fall, it is my understanding that, during the "third time," the Gods planted seeds, and the seed grew into grass, and herbs, and fruit-yielding seeds, which in turn yielded after their own kind. (see Abraham 4:11-12) If so, then according to Paul, there must have been death prior to the fall--1 Cor 15:36-38:

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36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

In other words, in order for the seed to grow into grain or grass or herbs or trees, it must first die. ;)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Not sure what you are saying in your first part, perhaps in answer to the second part answers both-

There was no "falling" away from the Fathers presence in coming down to the earth. This is where we disagree. Read my previous post, the earth was created perfect and immortal and remained perfect and immortal until the fall of Adam and Eve by giving in to Satans temptation to eat when they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That is not a terrestrial state as the terrestrial state includes mortality. Adam and Eve had celestial bodies (perfect and immortal, could not age nor die) until the fall.

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that you are correct that terrestrial bodies are "mortal" and thus able to age and die, then wouldn't they become immortal , or eternal and prevented from dying by partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life? In fact, isn't that what they did while in the Garden, and would have lived forever had they not partaken of the forbidden fruit?  If so, then what would have been the point of partaking of the fruit of the tree of life if they had celestial bodies that were already immortal?

For that matter, would not also Adam and Eve's  post-fall telestial bodies have become immortal or eternal were they to have been permitted to partake of the Tree of Life?

In other words, it was the fruit of the Tree of Life that made Adam and Eve live eternally, and they would have had no need for the fruit were they celestial. Ergo, by virtue of your own claim about mortality, Adam and Eve were terrestrial being rather than celestial--which comports with what Church leaders and Church publications and lesson material have said about the earth being terrestrial before the fall (see HERE  and HERE and HERE and HERE)

That having been said, can you explain how going DOWN to earth is not a spacial separation (in the opposite direction than up) from the heavenly presence of the Father? How do you square that circle?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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5 hours ago, wenglund said:

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that you are correct that terrestrial bodies are "mortal" and thus able to age and die, then wouldn't they become immortal , or eternal and prevented from dying by partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life? In fact, isn't that what they did while in the Garden, and would have lived forever had they not partaken of the forbidden fruit?  If so, then what would have been the point of partaking of the fruit of the tree of life if they had celestial bodies that were already immortal?

For that matter, would not also Adam and Eve's  post-fall telestial bodies have become immortal or eternal were they to have been permitted to partake of the Tree of Life?

In other words, it was the fruit of the Tree of Life that made Adam and Eve live eternally, and they would have had no need for the fruit were they celestial. Ergo, by virtue of your own claim about mortality, Adam and Eve were terrestrial being rather than celestial--which comports with what Church leaders and Church publications and lesson material have said about the earth being terrestrial before the fall (see HERE  and HERE and HERE and HERE)

That having been said, can you explain how going DOWN to earth is not a spacial separation (in the opposite direction than up) from the heavenly presence of the Father? How do you square that circle?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I will reply your question with a question. Why will the tree of life be found on the celestialized earth for its inhabitants to eat following resurrection? 

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@Rob Osborn and @wenglund 

I thought you (and maybe others) might be interested.  For those that have traveled and conversed in depth with those that live and are immersed in the culture of Aribia – the traditions over centuries past has shaped the religious impressions of the inhabitants that are mostly Arabic (and not just the Muslims).   I have posted before that my visiting to Israel and other middle Eastern places has drastically changed my understanding and interpretation of scripture.  One of the most prominent is the understanding and interpretations in scripture of “the tree of life”.  At this point of my post – I am not providing information as a means of debate or proof but rather an opportunity to understanding something many do not consider.

In the Book of Mormon Lehi has a dream concerning the “Tree of life” where he partakes of the fruit of the Tree of Life – which is white.  The fruit is sweet and precious to Lehi – more so than anything he has ever eaten.   To us in our western culture this is a nice story like so many other stories that has no bearing what-so-ever in any experience that any of us have ever had.  In our art (and minds) we perceive of what the tree may look like.  I have seen many pictures of the tree in Lehi’s Dream – also the tree in Eden.   But none that reflect an Aribic interpertation.

What many (almost everybody) in Western civilization do not realize is that anciently it was believe that G-d gave to the Arabic peoples (decedents of Abraham though Ishmael) three great gifts for them to survive, live and thrive in Aribia.   The first is Water (this is a no brainer for those that have any understanding of deserts) but the understanding of this special water has an additional connotation and is called “Living Water”.  Living Water is distinctively different than the just “water”.  It would take me sometime to explain this properly; however, what is meant by living water not the focus of this post – only that I would say the term “Living Water” also appears in the teaching of Christ (as well as our sacred Temples) and few have any idea the extent of the meaning of “Living Water” and its meaning in Aribia and how such meaning could apply to Jesus and our understanding of eternal life. 

The Second great blessing is the camel.  This is not too difficult to understand – Camels are the means of travel (especially anciently) in Aribia.

The final great blessing is “The Tree of life”.  In many cities and towns of Aribia at the center of the town is a monument dedicated to “The Tree of Life” and it is called the tree of life.  What is astonishing to me is that the monument is dedicated to a unique tree that only grows indigenously in Aribia.  And its fruit is WHITE!!  The tree of life is a unique date palm tree that produces “white” dates.  What is so special about these dates is that the white date, when ripe, will not spoil for months in the heat of Aribia and can be used to sustain life when traveling in the heat across the barren sands of Aribia.   The secret of this “white” fruit is the great secret and why, despite the great empires of history – Aribia has never been conquered by any of them.   But there is one more secret about this particular “Tree of Life”.  It is that the tree that produces the whitest, sweetest and best fruit only grows in one place in the entire world.  A place in western Aribia near a finger of the Red Sea – in the exact area where Lehi had his dream that is recorded in the Book of Mormon.

Some may say that the symbolism of the “Tree of Life” in Aribia has nothing to do what-so-ever with the Tree of Life spoken of in scripture, revelation and sacred covenant associated with the “Tree of Life” in Eden and Lehi’s dream as it relates to any understanding of the Divine plan of Salvation.  I shall not interrupt any such thinking further.

 

The Traveler

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12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think one large mistake is made in equating the earth attaining its paradisicial glory with how conditions were on the earth before the fall. Even though we may term the garden of Eden as a type of paradise its not the paradise spoken of or equating to the terrestrial kingdom (millennium). In fact, the scriptures dont actually state the earth being renewed at the beginning of the millennium to the same glory the earth had before the fall. I think over time a few bad connections were made and its stuck with us over time. It has no scriptural backing though.

I think one large mistake is not realizing that when the earth is returned to its paradisiacal that it is being returned to a state commensurate with the earths conditions before the fall.  To the ends that you might recognize that this is not my opinion but is instead the guidance of prophets, I provide a bit of supporting material:
 

Quote

 

Now in time past this earth had a paradisiacal glory, and then came the fall, bringing a change, and that change has been upon the earth in the neighborhood of 6,000 years.

What is meant by the restoration of the earth? This earth is to be renewed and brought back to the condition in which it was before it was cursed through the fall of Adam. When Adam passed out of the Garden of Eden, then the earth became a telestial world, and it is of that order today. I do not mean a telestial glory such as will be found in telestial worlds after their resurrection, but a telestial condition which has been from the days of Adam until now and will continue until Christ comes. (Smith, Joseph Fielding, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:85)

 


 

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We are approaching the day when there will be a new heaven and a new earth. By earth we mean this planet, this orb, this abiding place for mortal men; we mean the lands and the seas, the ground whereon we walk, and the pleasant valleys and towering mountains; we mean the great rivers and small streams, the Edenic gardens and the desert waste lands; we mean all of the places where the soles of our feet have trod. By heaven we mean the atmospheric heavens, the layers of air and moisture that surround the earth, the clouds of heaven and the free-moving breezes; we mean the life-giving breath that is breathed into the nostrils of living creatures; we mean the blue skies and the rainbow-hued panoramas of color that attend the rising and setting sun. And when we say the heavens and the earth shall be made new, we have in mind changes so dramatic and alterations of such giant proportion that things as they are now will scarcely be remembered or brought to mind. . . .

"We believe" - it is an official, a formal, a canonized pronouncement - "that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory." (A of F 10.) All things when first created - the earth and all forms of life -- were paradisiacal in nature and were pronounced by their Creator as "very good." (Moses 2:31.) There was no sin, no sorrow, and no death in that day. And the Great Creator blessed the earth and all things on its face. Then came the fall, and the earth which God had blessed was cursed. "Cursed shall be the ground for thy sake," he said to Adam; "in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field." (Moses 4:23-24.) To Cain the Lord said: "When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength." (Moses 5:37.) And later, with reference to all men, the divine account says: "And God cursed the earth with a sore curse, and was angry with the wicked, with all the sons of men whom he had made." (Moses 5:56.) That curse now prevails; it is in full operation, and it will continue so to be until the millennial day. Then the earth and all things that remain after the day of burning will return to a paradisiacal state, a state in which all things will be blessed and prospered as they were in the primeval day. A thing cannot be renewed unless it was new in the first instance. The earth was paradisiacal once, and it will become so again. (McConkie, Bruce R., The Millennial Messiah, pp.613-616)

 

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This habitation [i.e., the earth during the Millennium] may be compared to Paradise, from whence man, in the beginning, was driven.When Adam was driven from the Garden, an angel was placed with a flaming sword to guard the way of the Tree of Life, lest man should eat of it, and become immortal in his degenerate state, and thus be incapable of obtaining that exaltation, which he would be capable of enjoying through the redemption of Jesus Christ, and the power of the resurrection, with his renewed and glorified body. Having tasted of the nature of the fall, and having grappled with sin and misery, knowing, like the gods, both good and evil; having like Jesus overcome the evil, and through the power of atonement, having conquered death, hell, and the grave, he regains that Paradise, from which he was banished, not in the capacity of ignorant man, unacquainted with evil, but like unto a god. He can now stretch forth, and partake of the Tree of Life, and eat of its fruits, and live and flourish eternally in possession of that immortality which Jesus long ago promised to the faithful: "To him that overcomes, will I grant to sit with me in my throne; and eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." (Taylor, John, The Government of God, Ch.12)

 

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Articles of Faith 10

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

 

Are Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Smith and John Taylor all wrong?

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22 minutes ago, brlenox said:

I think one large mistake is not realizing that when the earth is returned to its paradisiacal that it is being returned to a state commensurate with the earths conditions before the fall.  To the ends that you might recognize that this is not my opinion but is instead the guidance of prophets, I provide a bit of supporting material:
 


 

 

 

Are Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Smith and John Taylor all wrong?

Back it up with scripture and we may have something. Opinions are abundant.

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39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Back it up with scripture and we may have something. Opinions are abundant.

You are indeed an unwise servant.

 

Ezekiel 36:35

And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.


Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Ether 13:9

And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.

 

D&C 29:23-25

And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.

For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.

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37 minutes ago, brlenox said:

You are indeed an unwise servant.

 

Ezekiel 36:35

And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.


Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Ether 13:9

And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.

 

D&C 29:23-25

And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.

For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.

Why an unwise servant?

Ezekiel 36 is stating that the people shall comment its like the garden of Eden because people are tilling and growing the waste places.

Rev. 21 is in reference to the celestialized earth. Read chapter 20 as it precedes 21. In ch. 20 it describes the millennium and then resurrection and judgement. Ch. 21 continues by explaining that this is the Fathers kingdom coming to join the earth. We know this because both the Father and the Lambs throne is there in the city where they will reign

Ether 13 describes the Lords kingdom and the building up of Gods kingdom here on earth. There is some ambiguoty here because Revelations speak of the Fathers kingdom after judgement and resurrection. If you read the verses around verse 9 it becomes clear that this end spoken of happens after the millennium. Read verses 8-10 and it shows this sequence of building the city on the earth before or at the beginning of the millennium, then a period when Christ dwells (the millennium) then the earth will pass away by fire (end of millennium) then cometh the New Jerusalem (celestial kingdom) John speaks of in Revelations ch. 21-22

D&C 29:23-25 describes the conditions at the end of the millennium and judgment when the earth attains its celestial glory. (Read the previous verses)

Edited by Rob Osborn
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13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Why an unwise servant?

Ezekiel 36 is stating that the people shall comment its like the garden of Eden because people are tilling and growing the waste places.

Rev. 21 is in reference to the celestialized earth. Read chapter 20 as it precedes 21. In ch. 20 it describes the millennium and then resurrection and judgement. Ch. 21 continues by explaining that this is the Fathers kingdom coming to join the earth. We know this because both the Father and the Lambs throne is there in the city where they will reign

Ether 13 describes the Lords kingdom and the building up of Gods kingdom here on earth. There is some ambiguoty here because Revelations speak of the Fathers kingdom after judgement and resurrection. If you read the verses around verse 9 it becomes clear that this end spoken of happens after the millennium. Read verses 8-10 and it shows this sequence of building the city on the earth before or at the beginning of the millennium, then a period when Christ dwells (the millennium) then the earth will pass away by fire (end of millennium) then cometh the New Jerusalem (celestial kingdom) John speaks of in Revelations ch. 21-22

D&C 29:23-25 describes the conditions at the end of the millennium and judgment when the earth attains its celestial glory. (Read the previous verses)

Because you refuse the prophets and apostles preferring to lean to your own understanding.

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47 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Because you refuse the prophets and apostles preferring to lean to your own understanding.

I explained the scriptures. Argue the points I made on the scripture references dont just default to the same line of "refuse to believe the prophets". Did it ever dawn on you that scriptures were written by prophets and when I quote scripture with correct definitions I am accepting the prophets?

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One thing that convolutes this is that there are two burnings of the earth, one before the beginning of the millennium and one at the end. At each of these burnings the earth will pass away and then be quickened to a new heaven and new earth by the glory it being quickened to. There is also the confusing aspect of building the New Jerusalem. There are at least three spoken of. One is the return of Enochs Zion, one is the new Jerusalem built by the saints in Missouri, and the other is the New Jerusalem of The Fathers City coming down from heaven. Now, whether these are one in the same, two separate, or three separate it makes the whole scenerio convoluted. 

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

One thing that convolutes this is that there are two burnings of the earth, one before the beginning of the millennium and one at the end. At each of these burnings the earth will pass away and then be quickened to a new heaven and new earth by the glory it being quickened to. There is also the confusing aspect of building the New Jerusalem. There are at least three spoken of. One is the return of Enochs Zion, one is the new Jerusalem built by the saints in Missouri, and the other is the New Jerusalem of The Fathers City coming down from heaven. Now, whether these are one in the same, two separate, or three separate it makes the whole scenerio convoluted. 

That was what I was going to try to get to.  The verses I sent speak to both but I did not lay out the discussion well as I am returning to work after vacation and I have too much to get caught up on for today.  Maybe this evening or tomorrow we can flush this out. That is one of the reasons I think you dismiss prophetic observations far too readily as there is commentary on all aspects of these points as you make them above and they are clear to understand...again perhaps tomorrow...

Edited by brlenox
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1 hour ago, brlenox said:

That was what I was going to try to get to.  The verses I sent speak to both but I did not lay out the discussion well as I am returning to work after vacation and I have too much to get caught up on for today.  Maybe this evening or tomorrow we can flush this out. That is one of the reasons I think you dismiss prophetic observations far too readily as there is commentary on all aspects of these points as you make them above and they are clear to understand...again perhaps tomorrow...

Aye. I dont see myself as readily dismissing prophet commentary. The problem is that their opinions are no different than yours or mine or Wades, or John doe down the street. Even though ten different apostles opinions may varry the scriptures themselves are not as prone to that problem. Thats why I refer to the scriptures almost exclusively.

We know certain aspects that are pretty sound. Here are some of them-

1. Before the fall there was no death, Adam and Eve could have lived forever.

2. The terrestrial glory of the earth during Christs reign (millennium) includes death.

3. Partaking of The tree of life gives eternal life.

4. Eternal life is given to the righteous at the end of the millennium after resurrection and judgement.

5. The second death for the wicked and unrepentant begins after resurrection and judgement at the end of the millennium.

6. The names of the righteous written in heaven are those of the celestial world.

7. Only those whose names are written in heaven are admitted into the holy city spoken of in Revelations where the tree of life is and also the very throne of God and the Lamb are located.

8. There is a specific "gate" through which heirs enter into the celestial kingdom and the streets tgerein appear to be paved with gold.

This kind of information helps me to understand which phase of the earth the scriptures speak of. There really isnt no scripture reference that I have found that thus place either access to the tree of life on the earth during the millennium or that the glory of the earth during that 1000 years is the same glory the earth had after it was created but before the fall.

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Aye. I dont see myself as readily dismissing prophet commentary. The problem is that their opinions are no different than yours or mine or Wades, or John doe down the street. Even though ten different apostles opinions may varry the scriptures themselves are not as prone to that problem. Thats why I refer to the scriptures almost exclusively.

.....

 

Perhaps I will go out on a limb a little here and suggest that scriptures, as many think of scriptures, are not as accurate as many think.  The reason I suggest this possibility is because many think of the scriptures as defining doctrine.  Which is only partly true and only partly accurate. 

Scriptures and the church (kingdom of G-d and appointed and ordained leaders – including priesthood keys) together define three aspects or parts of the Plan of Salvation as applied to our mortal probation.  First of the parts are the Laws of Salvation, part two are the Ordinances of Salvation and part three are the covenants of Salvation.   Doctrines are vague and only explain (line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept) what is needed in order to receive the laws, ordinances and covenants of salvation.

The scriptures and prophets are all useless unless one lives (obeys) the laws of salvation, receives the ordinances of salvation and keeps the covenants of salvation.  Being obedient to the laws are paramount.  It is through scriptures and the prophets that we are introduced to the law but it is only by the spirit that the laws are made complete (or as stated in scripture – perfect).  Thus, there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law – there is not a letter and spirit of doctrine.  Also, it is the law that we learn line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept – though many seem to think it is doctrine that is learned.  At least it appears to me most think of salvation in terms of doctrine and believing correct doctrine.

I will make one more statement – That is the Jesus is the law giver and salvation of glory comes from obedience to the laws Jesus provides.  One little example: Repentance is a law or as some would say a principle of the law – and there is an associated ordinance to repentance with a covenant.   What we consider the doctrine of repentance is only a help to understand the law that we may be obedient the ordinance that we establish the covenant by which we live the law.  The doctrine of repentance is meaningless and of no value or use unless the ordinance is established and the covenant unbroken.   I will submit the thought that to participate in the ordinance of repentance is in part what is meant by partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

 

The Traveler

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15 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I will reply your question with a question. Why will the tree of life be found on the celestialized earth for its inhabitants to eat following resurrection? 

I don't know that they will be literally eating from it following the resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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