Our Relationship with God

[clbent04]

Part of what I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is our relationship with God. God, our creator, or more accurately our organizer, plucked us out from somewhere unknown and we in turn are to worship Him eternally? The act of bringing us together is worthy of infinite praise? I guess it’s hard to know how praiseworthy God’s actions really were without knowing the kind of state we were in prior to His involvement. We were “intelligences” already in existence, but how we existed is unknown. Without knowing what it was like before God came into the picture leaves me wondering how much greater our current circumstances are in comparison.

What of our relationship with Jesus Christ? The concept of the Atonement and necessity of a Redeemer. Why is it necessary? I understand the religious answer. But which cosmic laws require us to have a Redeemer? What’s driving the necessity of us having a Savior to begin with? The concept of having a Redeemer becomes more foreign when your not sure why it’s necessary to begin with

Edited December 28, 2017 by clbent04

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Part of what I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is our relationship with God. God, our creator, or more accurately our organizer, plucked us out from somewhere unknown and we in turn are to worship Him eternally? The act of bringing us together is worthy of infinite praise?

Who believes in that "reasoning?"

Quote

I guess it’s hard to know how praiseworthy God’s actions really were without knowing the kind of state we were in prior to His involvement. We were “intelligences” already in existence, but how we existed is unknown. Without knowing what it was like before God came into the picture leaves me wondering how much greater our current circumstances are in comparison.

We are not entirely ignorant of our premortal existence.  For one, we didn't then have a physical body. And, attaining a physical body was, or is, immensely critical (hard to get much greater than that) to our eternal progression. Can you figure out the various reasons why?

Quote

What of our relationship with Jesus Christ? The concept of the Atonement and necessity of a Redeemer. Why is it necessary? I understand the religious answer. But which cosmic laws require us to have a Redeemer?

Pretty much all the "cosmic laws" relevant to creating or forming and maintaining order out of chaos speak to the need for an Archetype (savior and redeemer). For a fascinating and informative and somewhat scientific based explanation as to how and why, may I suggest Dr. Jordan B Peterson's Series on The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited December 28, 2017 by wenglund
Spelling correction, thanks to SilentOne

[SilentOne]

47 minutes ago, wenglund said:

We are not entirely ignorant of our premarital existence.  For one, we didn't then have a physical body.

Some of us are still in our premarital existence. And the bride and groom at all the weddings I've been to already had physical bodies long before the ceremony started.

[clbent04]

6 hours ago, SilentOne said:

Some of us are still in our premarital existence. And the bride and groom at all the weddings I've been to already had physical bodies long before the ceremony started.

Oh I see what you did there ?

[clbent04]

On 12/28/2017 at 12:24 AM, wenglund said:

We are not entirely ignorant of our premortal existence.  For one, we didn't then have a physical body. And, attaining a physical body was, or is, immensely critical (hard to get much greater than that) to our eternal progression. Can you figure out the various reasons why?

Pretty much all the "cosmic laws" relevant to creating or forming and maintaining order out of chaos speak to the need for an Archetype (savior and redeemer). For a fascinating and informative and somewhat scientific based explanation as to how and why, may I suggest Dr. Jordan B Peterson's Series on The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That’s just it though. Obtaining bodies is essential to our eternal progression under God’s order, under His design. 

Without being able to compare and contrast our previous state to where we are now, whose to say having bodies is really that much better? Maybe we were happy as intelligences doing whatever it is we were doing. Whose to say we didn’t interact with each other back then? Whose to say we didn’t have a sense of community/family/love? Whose to say we didn’t have purpose? 

Thanks for recommending Dr. Peterson’s Series. Is there a particular takeaway from the Series that stuck out to you?

Edited December 29, 2017 by clbent04

[zil]

9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Part of what I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is our relationship with God. God, our creator, or more accurately our organizer, plucked us out from somewhere unknown and we in turn are to worship Him eternally? The act of bringing us together is worthy of infinite praise?

You appear to assume we had no choice in the matter.  I assume we were willing, perhaps anxious participants.

Perhaps it would be useful to explore what "worship" and "praise" mean to you, exactly.  Perhaps drop the movie-version of prostration and flowery speech.  Even things described in vision may be more symbolic than literal.  Perhaps consider what we are asked to do with our mortality.  Are those worth doing?  Might doing them be a form of worship and praise?

9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The act of bringing us together is worthy of infinite praise? I guess it’s hard to know how praiseworthy God’s actions really were without knowing the kind of state we were in prior to His involvement. We were “intelligences” already in existence, but how we existed is unknown. Without knowing what it was like before God came into the picture leaves me wondering how much greater our current circumstances are in comparison.

Perhaps it's wise to withhold criticism until such time as you have acquired more knowledge.

23 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

That’s just it though. Obtaining bodies is essential to our eternal progression under God’s order, under His design. 

Without being able to compare and contrast our previous state to where we are now, whose to say having bodies is really that much better? Maybe we were happy as intelligences doing whatever it is we were doing. Whose to say we didn’t interact with each other back then? Who to say we didn’t have a sense of community/family/love? Whose to say we didn’t have purpose?

The only answers we have to these questions are the revealed word of God.  Reject or mistrust said word, and you have even less - exactly nothing, to be exact.  Mankind is clueless as to our prior existence without what God has told us.  So, you can either trust God, or side with complete and total ignorance on the topic.

I see this similar to your question about the title of the Book of Mormon.  You can worry about something you are powerless to alter - as in: it's too late now, dude - you've got a body, your intelligence is eternally merged with a spirit, and you're resurrection-bound.  Or you can make the most of what you've got.  You can either trust that the previous you knew what he was doing, and as described in scripture, you sided with the Lord in defending God's plan, and chose to become mortal in hopes of a glorious resurrection; or you can lament something you're powerless to change - or perhaps hope that there will be a chance in the future, prior to (or even after) the resurrection when, if you want, you can opt to return to intelligence-hood.  But we have nothing whatsoever to add any validity to such a hope or expectation, so it's probably better to make the best of what you've got.

9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

What of our relationship with Jesus Christ? The concept of the Atonement and necessity of a Redeemer. Why is it necessary? I understand the religious answer. But which cosmic laws require us to have a Redeemer? What’s driving the necessity of us having a Savior to begin with? The concept of having a Redeemer becomes more foreign when your not sure why it’s necessary to begin with

I don't think I can explain this to your satisfaction.  I think what you are looking for is something which has not yet been fully, publicly revealed.  I can tell you that I instinctively know beyond doubt that we do indeed need a Savior, and that there is perfect logic to the plan and its execution.  I also think that your understanding of that, and perhaps discovery of things not fully, publicly revealed will come from (a) accepting the word of God in faith, and (b) studying that word as it relates to the Atonement on the assumption that it is true and that it does indeed make sense even if you don't understand it yet.  I would expect such study to take a lifetime, though a few years should be enough to build sufficient understanding and confidence to go on.

Some of the posts by @brlenox may interest you - he has a different way of explaining the need for Christ's Atonement than what we usually hear.  The posts are more than long, and you'll have to read through many of them, and in one case, past a bit of a fight between posters.  I think the following threads have posts on the topic:

And:

That said, I still recommend personal, prayerful scripture study as the best starting point, especially when a testimony of the need for a Christ's Atonement is lacking.

[brlenox]

48 minutes ago, zil said:

You appear to assume we had no choice in the matter.  I assume we were willing, perhaps anxious participants.

Perhaps it would be useful to explore what "worship" and "praise" mean to you, exactly.  Perhaps drop the movie-version of prostration and flowery speech.  Even things described in vision may be more symbolic than literal.  Perhaps consider what we are asked to do with our mortality.  Are those worth doing?  Might doing them be a form of worship and praise?

Perhaps it's wise to withhold criticism until such time as you have acquired more knowledge.

The only answers we have to these questions are the revealed word of God.  Reject or mistrust said word, and you have even less - exactly nothing, to be exact.  Mankind is clueless as to our prior existence without what God has told us.  So, you can either trust God, or side with complete and total ignorance on the topic.

I see this similar to your question about the title of the Book of Mormon.  You can worry about something you are powerless to alter - as in: it's too late now, dude - you've got a body, your intelligence is eternally merged with a spirit, and you're resurrection-bound.  Or you can make the most of what you've got.  You can either trust that the previous you knew what he was doing, and as described in scripture, you sided with the Lord in defending God's plan, and chose to become mortal in hopes of a glorious resurrection; or you can lament something you're powerless to change - or perhaps hope that there will be a chance in the future, prior to (or even after) the resurrection when, if you want, you can opt to return to intelligence-hood.  But we have nothing whatsoever to add any validity to such a hope or expectation, so it's probably better to make the best of what you've got.

I don't think I can explain this to your satisfaction.  I think what you are looking for is something which has not yet been fully, publicly revealed.  I can tell you that I instinctively know beyond doubt that we do indeed need a Savior, and that there is perfect logic to the plan and its execution.  I also think that your understanding of that, and perhaps discovery of things not fully, publicly revealed will come from (a) accepting the word of God in faith, and (b) studying that word as it relates to the Atonement on the assumption that it is true and that it does indeed make sense even if you don't understand it yet.  I would expect such study to take a lifetime, though a few years should be enough to build sufficient understanding and confidence to go on.

Some of the posts by @brlenox may interest you - he has a different way of explaining the need for Christ's Atonement than what we usually hear.  The posts are more than long, and you'll have to read through many of them, and in one case, past a bit of a fight between posters.  I think the following threads have posts on the topic:

And:

That said, I still recommend personal, prayerful scripture study as the best starting point, especially when a testimony of the need for a Christ's Atonement is lacking.

Thanks for the mention @zil however, I removed the majority of my material from the thread you mentioned simply due to the reception I received.  It just seemed the wrong tone for a thread for material that has taken many years to grasp.  As well I have taken a different approach in this thread.  I have learned one too many times that one cannot replace hard effort and diligent study for giving the spirit a chance to illustrate principles that are being sought and whenever I try to simply just explain it without allowing for discovery it brings out those who wil not receive. 

[zil]

5 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Thanks for the mention @zil however, I removed the majority of my material from the thread you mentioned simply due to the reception I received.  It just seemed the wrong tone for a thread for material that has taken many years to grasp.  As well I have taken a different approach in this thread.  I have learned one too many times that one cannot replace hard effort and diligent study for giving the spirit a chance to illustrate principles that are being sought and whenever I try to simply just explain it without allowing for discovery it brings out those who wil not receive. 

Bummer.  I thought the stuff you posted pre-fight was quite interesting and helpful in viewing things from a different perspective.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Part of what I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is our relationship with God. God, our creator, or more accurately our organizer, plucked us out from somewhere unknown and we in turn are to worship Him eternally? The act of bringing us together is worthy of infinite praise? I guess it’s hard to know how praiseworthy God’s actions really were without knowing the kind of state we were in prior to His involvement. We were “intelligences” already in existence, but how we existed is unknown. Without knowing what it was like before God came into the picture leaves me wondering how much greater our current circumstances are in comparison.

What of our relationship with Jesus Christ? The concept of the Atonement and necessity of a Redeemer. Why is it necessary? I understand the religious answer. But which cosmic laws require us to have a Redeemer? What’s driving the necessity of us having a Savior to begin with? The concept of having a Redeemer becomes more foreign when your not sure why it’s necessary to begin with

I'd say: start working on having gratitude for everything.  Thank your neighbors. Thank your co-workers.  Thank your family.  Thank everyone for every small kindness.  Be truly grateful for their efforts.  As you do so, recognize what it is they've done and why you're thankful.

Then start thanking the Lord for every blessing.  Just do this exercise once a week or so for a few months.  Really try to write down a list of everything that you consider a blessing.  Review and add to it each week.  As you do so, you'll begin to understand what gratitude really is.

Then consider that we were basically a spiritual "primordial soup" when He gathered us.  Think of what we would have missed out on.  And while we can't quite imagine what Celestial life is like, consider the ginormolossalantuan (copyright, Carborendum) leap we had to make to get from what we were, to what we are, and what we will become.

Tell me that isn't worth being grateful for.

Finally:  What does it mean to worship?

Edited December 28, 2017 by Guest

[wenglund]

9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

That’s just it though. Obtaining bodies is essential to our eternal progression under God’s order, under His design. 

Without being able to compare and contrast our previous state to where we are now, whose to say having bodies is really that much better? Maybe we were happy as intelligences doing whatever it is we were doing. Whose to say we didn’t interact with each other back then? Who to say we didn’t have a sense of community/family/love? Whose to say we didn’t have purpose? 

 

I take from this that you have no idea what advantages the physical body provides? 

Well, for starters, a non-embodied spirit cannot experience physical pain and suffering.

How is that an advantage, you may ask? There is a profound answer to that question, but before answering it I want you to first see if you can ascertain it for yourself. 

Quote

Thanks for recommending Dr. Peterson’s Series. Is there a particular takeaway from the Series that stuck out to you?

Yes, that the workings of God are hidden in plain sight, but are yet vital to understanding how to properly behave in the world and move towards order and away from chaos.

I see his presentations as a viable bridge for non-believers in God, to find a way to believe in God, or at the very least recognize the value of living a good Christian life.

Of perhaps interest to you (given your expressed ordeal), Peterson indicated that he has heard from a number of people suffering from emotional issues like PTSD, who have become relatively healthy simply by watching his videos, believing, and integrating the conveyed principles in their lives.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Anddenex]

20 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Part of what I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is our relationship with God. God, our creator, or more accurately our organizer, plucked us out from somewhere unknown and we in turn are to worship Him eternally? The act of bringing us together is worthy of infinite praise? I guess it’s hard to know how praiseworthy God’s actions really were without knowing the kind of state we were in prior to His involvement. We were “intelligences” already in existence, but how we existed is unknown. Without knowing what it was like before God came into the picture leaves me wondering how much greater our current circumstances are in comparison.

What of our relationship with Jesus Christ? The concept of the Atonement and necessity of a Redeemer. Why is it necessary? I understand the religious answer. But which cosmic laws require us to have a Redeemer? What’s driving the necessity of us having a Savior to begin with? The concept of having a Redeemer becomes more foreign when your not sure why it’s necessary to begin with

At this moment, according to what I have read and studied, I believe our relationship with God is exactly as scriptures testify -- Father and son. We are informed in scripture that all things were spiritual before they were physical, and that the physical is patterned after that which is spiritual. My spirit takes this literally.

Quote

That which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the espirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the fbeast, and every other creature which God has created." (source)

And that our physical likeness is in the likeness of our spirits, "And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; " (source)

As pertaining to this concept, "plucked us out from somewhere...," really doesn't seem to jive with scripture nor prophetic teachings, which may be the reason you are having trouble with this notion of relationship. As all things are in the likeness of that which is spiritual, I keep things rather simple. God is the Father of our spirits (our spirit bodies) in the same way I am the father of my children and their physical bodies, which are in my likeness, and I am in the likeness/image of God the Father.

We have the following from scripture and modern prophets:

Quote

"And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell." (source)

"There is no more compelling motivation to worthwhile endeavor than the knowledge that we are children of God." (Move Forward with Faith - I recommend reading whole chapter)

The statement regarding God's "praiseworthy" actions causes me to ponder whether or not your heart has received witness from the Spirit that you are a "child of God." This testimony alone will give added confidence in who God is, and what God has done, and that his actions are something to praise and rejoice over. As seen in modern visions and as in scripture provided, "the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God." I have every reason, upon the witness I received long ago that I was a child of God, to know his actions were praiseworthy.

That last paragraph conflates two ideas that do not depend on each other and will only deepen confusion rather than enlightenment. The atonement isn't a "cosmic law." The atonement is a spiritual -- Celestial -- law that allows God's heir's to become as he is, and to receive all that he has. What we need is to understand the core of these doctrines, and then allow God to reveal more when we can accept what already has been revealed. The Book of Mormon is very clear on why an atonement was needed, which provide the basics. If you understand these -- the religious explanation -- then the question regarding "cosmic law" wouldn't exist.

The atonement actually becomes more clear when you seek to understand the basic principles taught in scripture. What I see is that you don't understand yet the "religious" answer, and are now trying to conflate a scientific answer "cosmic" with that which is spiritual. Isn't going to happen.

As @zil, already pointed out, I recommend these words from President Hinckley, "If there is any one thing that you and I need, to help us find success and fulfillment in this world, it is faith—that dynamic, powerful, marvelous element by which, as Paul declared, the very worlds were framed (see Hebrews 11:3). I refer not to some ethereal concept but to a practical, pragmatic, working faith—the kind of faith that moves us to get on our knees and plead with the Lord for guidance, and then, having a measure of divine confidence, get on our feet and go to work to help bring the desired results to pass. Such faith is an asset beyond compare. Such faith is, when all is said and done, our only genuine and lasting hope."

Sin is the driving factor that causes requires us to have a Savior. Remember, Christ did not need a Savior, so a Savior isn't required for them which are perfect -- without spot. A Savior is required for us who have chose to sin, to remove ourselves from the presence of the Father, by which we can not ourselves make corruption into perfection. How do you make yourself whole? We can't. Thus a Savior was provided, merging the distance, filling the gap, allowing us the opportunity to be perfected through him.

EDIT - And is why these are some of my favorite scriptures regarding Christ, his relationship to the Father, and our redemption:

Quote

Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life. (source)

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Anddenex

[skalenfehl]

To the OP, I know this: I cannot pull myself up by my bootstraps. Akin to finding myself inside a bucket, I cannot lift myself up by pulling the handle, hard as I may try. I cannot remember the very first time in my life that I sinned. The moment I did, it was necessary for me to have a Savior who, by His sacrifice to satisfy the demands of justice, gained the rights of mercy. Furthermore, I do not have the power over death. Only a Savior could provide the means by which I can overcome death. None of the above can I hope for on my own merits, lest by any means, as Paul said, I should boast. I cannot save myself. I do not have such power. I am born into this fallen state and must remain fallen unless I come unto Christ and receive Him. By doing what Jesus Christ has said to do, I can become like Him--humble, meek, kind, charitable, etc. And by being obedient to Him as He was to the Father, and acknowledge that He is my God, my King, my Savior, and hold that light for the world to see, I know that He will claim me as His own and confess me before the Father. By His rights of mercy, the demands of justice for my sins are satisfied. I shrink just thinking about it. As for what kind of relationship we can have of Jesus Christ, I will share two talks:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/10/a-personal-relationship-with-the-savior?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/09/what-it-means-to-know-christ?lang=eng

[clbent04]

On 12/28/2017 at 10:48 AM, Carborendum said:

Finally:  What does it mean to worship?

To hold in high regard, to express gratitude

Edited December 31, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

On 12/28/2017 at 5:46 PM, wenglund said:

I take from this that you have no idea what advantages the physical body provides? 

Well, for starters, a non-embodied spirit cannot experience physical pain and suffering.

How is that an advantage, you may ask? There is a profound answer to that question, but before answering it I want you to first see if you can ascertain it for yourself. 

I think you’re getting at the reasoning of us needing to experience sorrow to appreciate joy, correct? 

I don’t think physical pain is necessary to understand the spectrum of good and bad.

Whose to say we didn’t have both good and bad experiences as intelligences?

Edited December 31, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

On 12/28/2017 at 7:05 PM, Anddenex said:

 God is the Father of our spirits (our spirit bodies) in the same way I am the father of my children and their physical bodies, which are in my likeness, and I am in the likeness/image of God the Father.

That last paragraph conflates two ideas that do not depend on each other and will only deepen confusion rather than enlightenment. The atonement isn't a "cosmic law." The atonement is a spiritual -- Celestial -- law that allows God's heir's to become as he is, and to receive all that he has. 

scientific answer "cosmic" with that which is spiritual. Isn't going to happen.

God is the Father of our spirits, but he is not the Father of our being, nor does He seem to be the Father of our sentience.  The fact we existed prior to God means we were somehow brought into existence without Him, that we functioned as intelligences prior to His involvement, but how we functioned is unknown.  How much did we experience as intelligences?  

As for the Atonement, there is a relationship between nature and the spirit. As the laws of nature are rooted in truth, could there not be some overlap of spiritual and natural laws? Could the Atonement also satisfy a natural law that prevents imperfect beings from being in the presence of God?

[clbent04]

On 12/28/2017 at 8:29 AM, zil said:

You appear to assume we had no choice in the matter.  I assume we were willing, perhaps anxious participants.

We were given a choice to have bodies and come to Earth, or exist without bodies. 

We were not given the choice of becoming spirit children of God. Body or no body, everyone is a spirit child of God. 

What if we were happy buzzing around as intelligences? Where was the option to be left alone as intelligences?

[zil]

5 hours ago, clbent04 said:

We were not given the choice of becoming spirit children of God.

How do you know that?  I submit we have no idea, except that everything else we learn tells us we did have a choice.  Everything else we learn says that God gives us the ability to choose whether we will move forward, or stay where we are.  Why would God give us a choice to progress from spirit to mortal body and yet not have given us a choice whether to progress from intelligence to spirit body?  It's not consistent, but God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

I suspect Satan is whispering lies to you - lies which you find appealing because they hint at a pain- and obligation-free existence.  You aren't the only one to find such ideas appealing, but that doesn't make them any less lies, not any less appalling when coming from the very being who seeks your eternal misery.  (And yes, I think the "we had no choice in becoming spirit children" and "we would have been happy for eternity staying intelligences" are lies.  Those who wanted to stay as intelligences still are - assuming intelligences are sentient (something we're not entirely certain of).  Just as those who wanted to remain as spirits still are.)

PS: Who says intelligences have pain and obligation-free existence?  Maybe their lives are drudgery and tedium that they'd kill to escape.  Maybe "left alone" is the worst thing in the universe.  (And actually, much as I rather like being left alone, I suspect that in its fullness, "left alone" is the very definition of death - full and complete and unending death.)

[Guest]

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

To hold in high regard, to express gratitude

And you don't want to hold Good in high regard?

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, zil said:

How do you know that?  I submit we have no idea, except that everything else we learn tells us we did have a choice.  Everything else we learn says that God gives us the ability to choose whether we will move forward, or stay where we are.  Why would God give us a choice to progress from spirit to mortal body and yet not have given us a choice whether to progress from intelligence to spirit body?  It's not consistent, but God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

And yes, I think the "we had no choice in becoming spirit children" and "we would have been happy for eternity staying intelligences" are lies.   

Okay, I guess we don’t have a definite answer as to whether or not we had a choice to remain as intelligences. The keyword I used to make this assumption is “organized.”  God organized us. It doesn’t say he convened with us if was it even possible to communicate with us back then. It’s just a thought I had loosely based on the fragmented information we have. 

I’m not saying we would of been nothing but happy remaining as intelligences, I’m just questioning if we would be happier overall than we are under God’s design.

Edited December 31, 2017 by clbent04

[zil]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Okay, I guess we don’t have a definite answer as to whether or not we had a choice to remain as intelligences. The keyword I used to make this assumption is “organized.”  God organized us. It doesn’t say he convened with us if was it even possible to communicate with us back then. It’s just a thought I had loosely based on the fragmented information we have. 

I’m not saying we would of been nothing but happy remaining as intelligences, I’m just questioning if we would be happier overall than we are under God’s design.

We have scripture to say worlds were organized. Where is the one that says God's spirit children were "organized"?

[clbent04]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

We have scripture to say worlds were organized. Where is the one that says God's spirit children were "organized"?

I’m saying intelligences were organized, not spirit children. Spirit children were created.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; (Abrahman 3:22)

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

And you don't want to hold Good in high regard?

I just want to understand exactly what he did for us, and if we really are better off now than we were as intelligences. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I just want to understand exactly what he did for us, and if we really are better off now than we were as intelligences. 

Some people wonder why Outer Darkness.  Why Telestial Kingdom?  Why Terrestrial?  I believe that we will receive the best that we had potential for.  My personal belief is that Outer Darkness eventually leads to non-existence.  That light of intelligence is gone in Outer DARKNESS.  With no light, they cease to exist.  THIS IS MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION AND OPINION ONLY.  I've heard some people have made statements to this effect.  But I came up with this on my own because it seemed to make sense.

Whatever we achieve it is better than what we were prior to existence.  We were merely potential (intelligences).  Now we exist.  I realize that as intelligences we existed.  But this is one of those areas where human language is getting in the way of things as they really are.  I'm afraid I can't clarify my real meaning any further.  So, please bear with my as I try to explain something quite a bit deeper than our mortal tongue is able to communicate.

The fact that we had existence at all is always better than potential alone.  Even Satan and his angels benefited from being in Father's presence for the eternity prior to earth life.  They will fade away in outer darkness and the light will be reclaimed.

Again, this is personal interpretation only.  But it seems you are being whispered to by the evil spirit that says that you should never have been born.  No.  It is much better to have existed than not existed.

[zil]

In the course of 2 verses, these beings are called "intelligences", "souls",  and "spirits". Are you sure which is meant?  Are you sure it doesn't mean "gathered together" or "created" rather than "forcibly altered"?

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God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

- Teaching of The Prophet Joseph Smith

The wording of this quote makes it clear that ways or opportunities were provided. There's nothing forced in this process.

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D&C 121:46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Everything we know about God says He does not use compulsion.

Edited December 31, 2017 by zil

[the Ogre]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

I’m saying intelligences were organized, not spirit children. Spirit children were created.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; (Abrahman 3:22)

This is my personal opinion on this verse: I don't think the L-rd is showing Abraham the creation, rather Abraham is being shown that those who helped in the creation were organized and that creation was a structured, organized event.

I don't think more should be read into this verse.