How Did You Find Your Answer to the BOM and Joseph Smith


clbent04
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Now that I'm going back to church, one of my goals this year is to gain a personal testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith being a prophet of God.

To give you some background on my own familiarity with the BOM, I've read it 3x cover to cover, I've studied it for many years (seminary, church, serving a mission for 1 year, personal studies...), but yet I've never received a solid answer on if it really is the word of God.  I've prayed on multiple occasions specifically asking God if the BOM is true, and as sincere and earnest as I felt those prayers were, I can say I've honestly never received an answer.  I received positive feelings from time to time, but those positive feelings are not impressed upon me any differently than positive feelings I receive from reading other sources of uplifting literature.

By my own admission, I acknowledge I'm not the most spiritual person. Part of being spiritually in tune with God requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit. So I admit the reason why I haven't gained a testimony of the BOM or Joseph Smith being a prophet of God is because I'm not humble enough.  

But how do I get to that level of humility?  I don't want to keep repeating past efforts just to end up with the same result.  

For anyone who has a true, solid testimony of the BOM and Joseph Smith, could you please share your experience in how you gained such a testimony? I think hearing about the faith of others could help spark some hope for myself. 

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I sincerely wanted to know If the Book of Mormon was true. I promised that if I knew the Book was true that I would dedicate my life to following its precepts. ...and I sincerely meant that. I began living the commandments even though I did not know the reason for them. On that basis, I prayed to know that the Book of Mormon was true. I was reverential and deferential to the Lord.

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https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng

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It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?”

Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” is as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.” (Prov. 20:27.)

If you cannot get up in front of the ward and bear testimony that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, bear that testimony in prayer and see what happens.

Please note @Sunday21's repeated use of the word "sincere" - this is mandatory when dealing with God.

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This is how it went for me:

First, I developed a testimony of Eternal Families.  Actually, I already knew this was true I just never heard of it taught by a religious organization before.  So, because of this truth, I started to consider that Joseph Smith - the prophet who restored this truth - is a true prophet.  It took me a long time to get confirmation that the Prophetic Priesthood did not pass from Peter to Pope Linus and that it passed from Peter to Joseph Smith.  After developing that testimony that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God, then it follows that the Book of Mormon is true.

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41 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

For anyone who has a true, solid testimony of the BOM and Joseph Smith, could you please share your experience in how you gained such a testimony? I think hearing about the faith of others could help spark some hope for myself. 

Here's my story:

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Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

 Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 

 The first scripture promises a slowly evolving process from faith to knowledge, through the assumption that if it looks good, and acts good, and produces good fruit, then it is good.  Not really enough to base a testimony on, in my opinion.  But Moroni promised something else - "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.".  That sounded a little more like it.  So, when I looked at the verse, it laid out my side of the bargain:

 1- "And when ye shall receive these things" - Before it would work, I had to read the Book of Mormon.  But more than read it, to "receive" it.  I had to internalize it - deeply reading for meaning, more than just a cursory glance.  Not a critical reading, looking for faults.  I had to read it, with the notion that it very well might be exactly what it claimes to be - scripture.  True.  The word of God.  A literal history of people who literally lived.

 2- "I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true"

So, I had to pray.  Not just pray, but pray in the name of Christ.  That means, I had to be worthy of his name.  The guy who owns The Simsons brand, will let any amount of stupid garbage bear the name - Bart Simpson toothpaste, cheap flimsy Homer travel mugs, stupid T-shirts make out of inferior materials, whatever.  But Jesus is more choosy.  If you are going to bear his name, you need to be following his teachings. 

 This is possible to do, without actually believing in him.  After all, I follow some of Sun-Tzu's "art of war" notions, but I don't believe he is a god, and I also don't share his faith.   The best advice for a happy marriage, the notion that I've used as a foundation for mine, came from a drunk Tongan I met in an alleyway one night.  I follow that advice daily, yet I'm not a big fan of the guy who gave it to me.

 So, to take upon myself the name of Christ, I had to do and be a couple of main things:
* Not sinning
* Loving my neighbor
* Desiring to know a God I could love

I did not have to be perfect, I figured it was a matter of heart.  It wasn't how close to my destination I was, it mattered only that my compass was pointed in the right direction, and I was following it.  Yes, there was some doubt about what the compass was pointing to - was it true north, or just wishful thinking.  But that didn't matter - I was just trying to satisfy this part of the scripture - and be able to pray in the name of Christ.

So, I prayed.  I prayed nightly, starting about halfway through the book.  I prayed fervently.  My prayers were short and simple: "Dear Heavenly Father, if thou exist, thou knowest my heart.  Thou knowest I am sincere.  I desire to know of the truthfulness of this work.  Please show it to me.  In the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, amen".  Simple, plain, sincere, over and over again. 

3- "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,"

Ok - 3 requirements - and I had to have all 3 of them.  In years past, I had read the BoM and prayed in the name of Christ, and got nothing.  I was missing real intent - I figured I wouldn't get an answer, and praying was a way of proving my guess true.

It's about where my heart is.  It needs to be sincere, not with an ulterior motive, burdened by unrepented of sin, or trying to get something else out of the experience.  My intent had to be true.  No faith, no promise.

I can't impress enough on everyone, the importance of these 3 items.  They're related, but if you are missing one, don't be expecting anything.  If you are having a hard time figuring out where you are on these 3, you're probably not there. 

Throughout the process, I was comfortable with my part of the bargain.  It was like showing up for a test being very, very well prepared - there's a confidence based on the fact that you know what you're doing.  I wasn't lying to myself, or bending any rules, or figuring out the least I could do to satisfy the bare minimum - I was there, and there solidly.

I did not believe in God - but I didn't have to.  I just had to want to.  I was not setting aside doubts - they held the center stage. 

4- "He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

So, what can I say - it happened. 

It happened at work, where I was a candy maker, with an arm covered with chocolate.  (If you've ever been to a fancy hotel, or taken a fancy cruise, and there's a chocolate mint on your pillow - that's what I used to make by hand.)

The details?  Here is where I need to be a bit vague, in order to avoid embarassing stuff about someone who is not me.  I was working away quietly, thinking about reality, wondering if I'd ever know what it was, and thinking about an unresolved situation in my life.  I was at a crossroads, only tangentially related to my quest to discover the truth about the Book of Mormon.  As I thought about this crossroads, trying to discern what to make out of the facts before me, I thought something along the lines of "Well, this pattern indicates that things are moving in the right direction... "

And it happened.

Words can't really explain it - they can only approximate it. 

It was unmistakable, not a warm fuzzy, not an emotional reaction.

I had my answer.  It was "yes". 

It was a strong, internal sensation.  Not a feeling - I wasn't happy or sad.  The best word is "confirmation" .  And what was it confirming?  Many things.   It was confirming that yes, I had just said something true - the pattern I was looking at was indeed moving in the right direction.  It confirmed that there WAS a right direction.  It confirmed that this notion of reality that I had looked at - this bizarre tale of prophets and plates and revelations and restorations, had the added benefit of being true.

A few side details:

* The first thing that dawned on me was, "My gosh, this is the Holy Ghost speaking with me!"  The second thought that came a few minutes later was "My gosh, I've felt this before!"  In one or two of the most stressful times of my life, I had felt that sensation before.  I had written off the experience at the time, but realization flooded me - the Lord had stood by me, even while I was inactive.

* Other people tell me their conversion stories, and they are often different.  My Bishop, as a young man, was watching a sunset, and said a brief prayer "thank you, God", and heard the words as clear as day "You'll be all right - I'll always take care of you".  My experience was different.  Another guy from my ward had been desiring to feel the Love of Christ - and felt it unexpectedly when he stood up to shake hands with a brother from another ward.  They stood there with clasped hands, with tears flowing down both their faces.  My experience was different - there was not a lot of emotion (although I pretty soon felt exhilleration, as it sank in what was happening).  My wife's grandfather was on a bar stool 40 years ago, having left the church, and was almost knocked to the floor by the words "Wayne, why hast thou forsaken me?"   I heard no words.  The energy and the impact was internal to me, not external like it was to him.

* I have since felt this impression, this confirmation, quite often.  As I returned to church in full force, keeping my baptismal covenant, the Holy Ghost has been, at points in my life, my constant companion.

* I have since been able to test this "answer", this influence of the spirit, this burning in the bosom, fairly scientifically. I've been able, once, to "switch" it on and off several times, by asking the Lord in prayer "should I do this?.... should I not do this?...  should I do this?"

 

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Now that I'm going back to church, one of my goals this year is to gain a personal testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith being a prophet of God.

To give you some background on my own familiarity with the BOM, I've read it 3x cover to cover, I've studied it for many years (seminary, church, serving a mission for 1 year, personal studies...), but yet I've never received a solid answer on if it really is the word of God.  I've prayed on multiple occasions specifically asking God if the BOM is true, and as sincere and earnest as I felt those prayers were, I can say I've honestly never received an answer.  I received positive feelings from time to time, but those positive feelings are not impressed upon me any differently than positive feelings I receive from reading other sources of uplifting literature.

By my own admission, I acknowledge I'm not the most spiritual person. Part of being spiritually in tune with God requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit. So I admit the reason why I haven't gained a testimony of the BOM or Joseph Smith being a prophet of God is because I'm not humble enough.  

But how do I get to that level of humility?  I don't want to keep repeating past efforts just to end up with the same result.  

For anyone who has a true, solid testimony of the BOM and Joseph Smith, could you please share your experience in how you gained such a testimony? I think hearing about the faith of others could help spark some hope for myself. 

If you're really in the mood for a long story, I'll tell you.

I'm not sure if humility is all that is required.  All joking aside, I'm the type of person who vacillates between humility and arrogance.  So, I was able to be touched by the Spirit at those times when I was being humble and was really open to inspiration.  Other times I wasn't.  But it was those times when I was being humble that I was touched by the Spirit.  Then I just had to keep my arrogance at bay long enough to truly appreciate the inspired thoughts.

I believe the most important thing was that I felt I had to be dedicated to the truth whether it damned me or exalted me.  I had to seek the truth and nothing else.  My reasoning could never be about benefiting me or anyone in particular.  It had to be of universal truth.

My testimony began at birth, really.  I was born in Korea to a non-denominational Christian family.  I went to church every Sunday.  I don't really remember all the stuff they taught me.  But I remember two things: 1) I always had questions, and their answers never made sense to me -- on a fundamental level.  2) They gave us these Cheetos type snacks on the way home.

When I was adopted by an LDS family, I went to church with them.  I was actually much more at home there.  I asked questions, they answered.  Some answers made sense.  Others didn't.  But at the same time, the answers that didn't make sense were ones that I felt was reasonably wrong.  Does that make sense?  What I mean is that when I considered the ones that didn't make sense, the guesses that they had seemed to be reasonable guesses in their admitted ignorance.  I'm not sure if that clarifies that any better.

So, in that way I started with a very rudimentary testimony as a child.  That doesn't mean I had it made.  I did fall away at various points in my life.  I had very good reasons to disbelieve all of it.  But then I found I had very good reason to disbelieve everything else as well.  Any religion, Atheism, Agnosticism, ancient religions, new age junk.  For all the searching, I found that if I gave everything a fair shot, I found everything had some things right and a whole lot wrong -- including LDS theology.  You can imagine how hopeless I would feel at that point when I was dedicated to finding truth.  It seemed everyone had it wrong.  And I was never going to find it anywhere.

So, I came back to the LDS faith because of a number of reasons.  I'm not going to go into all of them because that would be a long story in and of itself.  Besides, I don't think they'd necessarily apply to anyone else.  But the fact that this is where I came back was the critical thing.

The next piece of the puzzle was life experience.  Jesus told of the lilies of the field and the fowls of the air.  He spoke these truths He learned through simple observation.  Anyone who simply observed them could discern these truths.  But they were not scientific or provable truths.  They were philosophical and religious truths.  They were had by simple observation that anyone would be able to witness.  Through my own life experience, I found many more truths that were not provable in a scientific manner, but they were observable nonetheless.

The best way I can describe it is a quote from one of my favorite movies.

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Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.

Secondhand Lions

I saw these truths that others deny.  I could simply see them.  They were self-evident.  Even those who deny them want to see them as ideals of good.  They really are the things worth believing in.

As I read the Book of Mormon I gradually - over many years - saw just how many of these self-evident truths there were.  They were not preached, but they were exemplified in the stories, and included in the passing narrative.  With so many truths given through the mouth of a 25 year old farmboy, how did he gain so much wisdom and knowledge?  It was only after many years of this that I had to acknowledge, that this was not the wisdom of a 25 yo farmboy.  It was the wisdom of God.

It is important to acknowledge the fact that it was never any single event.  It was a decades long search where I was constantly wondering, constantly asking, and periodically being rewarded with a bit of knowledge.  And the most important part was that I had a dedication to the idea that whatever truth I learned I would do my best to abide by it rather than make excuses for why I didn't need to.  Once I start doing that, I know that eventually leads to "Well, that isn't really true anyway."  No.  That doesn't work when you're searching for truth.

If any man shall do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.

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2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

....

For anyone who has a true, solid testimony of the BOM and Joseph Smith, could you please share your experience in how you gained such a testimony? I think hearing about the faith of others could help spark some hope for myself. 

 

What is it we think we want to possess in order to be sure of something so we know it to be true?   Can anyone say with pure clarity that they know anything to be true?  If we see something and hold it in our hands so that we feel it – can we say that its existence is true?  Then, what about a year or two later; can we know that what we remember is both true and complete?  Sometimes I go to get a tool from my tool cabinet – only to get there and I cannot remember what tool I came to get.  I am skeptical when anyone thinks they never forget something.

For me the first effort to know if something is true is to first determine form myself if I know anything to be true and then the process by which I came to know that truth.  I am very sure about quite a few things but I am not sure if I can honestly say I know anything completely to know it to be true.  In addition – a great many things I am quite sure about – I have discovered that I cannot “prove” (even to myself) that anything I think to be true is actually true.  I am a mathematician and engineer and I cannot say that even mathematic proof conclude truth – even though the conclusions are consistent and reassuring.  Many things are so consistent and unwavering (unwavering includes spiritual unwavering) over so long periods of time, that I have concluded that such things are true – but it is my conclusion.

For me the Book of Mormon is one of the most consistent and unwavering (including spiritual unwavering) influences in my life that I continue to study and have concluded to be true – many times over and over and over.  I cannot say the same about the Bible.  But there is another dimension to my thinking and understanding – that is that I have discovered that from time to time others that I converse with concerning what I understand to be true – seem to have come to quite different conclusions.  For example; some say they know the Book of Mormon to be true and yet they seem to understand principles of the “truth” that is very much different than mine.  Though this sometimes happens with the Book of Mormon I must admit that it happens on a much larger scale with the Bible.   In all cases that it would seem the Book of Mormon (for me) to not be true it must contradict another consistent and unwavering influence that I am sure is true.

Thus, concerning the Book of Mormon – I can give anyone many reasons and experiences (including profound spiritual experiences) why I believe it to be true.  However, in all my efforts I have not encountered anything to impress me that the Book of Mormon is false; that remains consistent.  As an example, I have encountered many that claim the Book of Mormon to be false that think they have the proof.  Interestingly, most that claim to know such a thing also claim the Bible to be true but yet their supposed proof that the Book of Mormon is false also disproves the Bible.  Thus, my conclusion that such that disparage the Book of Mormon and believe the Bible – I just do not believe they know or understand their own claims to know truth from folly.  Others that have claimed proof the Book of Mormon is not true (that do not believe in the Bible) but then again, they do so in contradiction of something else that they claim to be true.

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Now that I'm going back to church, one of my goals this year is to gain a personal testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith being a prophet of God.

To give you some background on my own familiarity with the BOM, I've read it 3x cover to cover, I've studied it for many years (seminary, church, serving a mission for 1 year, personal studies...), but yet I've never received a solid answer on if it really is the word of God.  I've prayed on multiple occasions specifically asking God if the BOM is true, and as sincere and earnest as I felt those prayers were, I can say I've honestly never received an answer.  I received positive feelings from time to time, but those positive feelings are not impressed upon me any differently than positive feelings I receive from reading other sources of uplifting literature.

By my own admission, I acknowledge I'm not the most spiritual person. Part of being spiritually in tune with God requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit. So I admit the reason why I haven't gained a testimony of the BOM or Joseph Smith being a prophet of God is because I'm not humble enough.  

But how do I get to that level of humility?  I don't want to keep repeating past efforts just to end up with the same result.  

For anyone who has a true, solid testimony of the BOM and Joseph Smith, could you please share your experience in how you gained such a testimony? I think hearing about the faith of others could help spark some hope for myself. 

Here is a question for you, Why are you coming back to the Gospel of Jesus Christ if the seed of testimony (even if small) is not already within you?

I would venture to say, although small, the seed of testimony is already within you and it is why you are coming back to Church. In light of this, take the opportunity to increase the testimony you already have, and as you do so you will realize the Lord has already revealed these truths to you.

This is my experience with testimony, "the dews of heaven." When we expect God to reveal a truth in a specific way, if not the way he intends for us to know, then we will miss the pure intelligence that flows through our minds and hearts softly bearing witness of all that is good and true. There are others here who probably have read the Book of Mormon more than I, and with each time I read the Spirit further bore witness that it is true.

The time that I felt similar to you, I fasted and prayed on Sunday and on Wednesday. This is the loving chastisement I received, "Stop asking me something you already know, build upon what you know." I have sought to do this since that day that the Lord told me he had already answered me (I expected an answer to come as others had declared), and he indeed did answer me as the dews of heaven.

For some the answer appears to come in a single, undeniable, moment (like my father who joined the Church). For others, like my mother and myself it is the quantitative experience that developed through small witnesses of truth as pure intelligence confirms softly a truth to the mind and heart, and if looking beyond the mark it will be missed as the Lord will not force our human mind and heart.

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7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Now that I'm going back to church, one of my goals this year is to gain a personal testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith being a prophet of God.

My advice is to change you goal to "seek after Christ." 

Think of it like hiking. The ultimate goal for climbing is to reach the top of the mountain (in terms of the gospel, that would be becoming like Christ).  We have different people telling us that different trails lead to the top, and it would be good to know which trail does that. 

And, there are various guides and guide books that also point to different trails (for the gospel, this would be Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon), and it would be nice to know which of the guides and guide books are correct. 

We suggest asking the mountain top which trail and guides and guidebooks are true, and this to not only get you started on the path, but to assist you along the way to the top..

However, sure faith and knowledge can only come by getting on the path and climbing to see if it does, in fact, best reach the top.

The good news is, that one can climb a given path without the sure knowledge that it is the right and true path, having the expectation that as one climbs, it will become more and more apparent that the path is "true," and thus the guide and guides are "true."

In shiort, the gospel is about climbing. So, that should be your goal. Knowing which guide and guide books to trust, are simply the means to that end. If, for whatever reason,  you don't have a firm testimony of the LDS guide and guidebook, that is okay. Just continue climbing, and it will come.

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I'm not a baptised member and fairly new to this so don't pay too much attention to my experience!

I first started investigating the LDS church because of their belief in the pre-existence, I had been studying NDE (near death experiences) for a while and came across this video on them by an LDS convert (check out his conversion video too, its really good).  That lead me to investigating the LDS faith.

 

As far as the Book of Mormon I haven't read it anywhere near as much as you have, I prayed and I prayed and nothing!  Finally I read this article and all of a sudden 'click' I knew it was true, I just knew it. Joseph Smith did not make this up, the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/book-of-mormon-hoax/ 

I still don't have a solid testimony of the succession of authority to Jospeh Smith, but I'm working on it!

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I'm not the most humble person in the world, but I have always wanted to be more knowledgeable.  Probably because I'm not as humble as I should be.  To be knowledgeable, you must ask questions and truly listen.  That's the hard part, TRULY listening.  Then anything that I don't understand I research, which raises more questions.  Then the answers to THOSE questions require more research.  I guess the answer is talking with people, being forthright with my questioning, attending church, and prayer.   Even then, for most of my testimony I didn't have a flash/bang moment.  It's like my relationship with my wife.  I always knew I loved her, but one day I realized I LOVED her.  There was no flash/bang moment.

However, I believe God rewards effort.  You need to put in the time.  You need to earn it.  If he just ran around handing out testimonies, it wouldn't be much of a test.  I didn't have a conviction to the church until I listened to all the advice people on this forum had been giving me for months.  Live the WoW.  Pray.  Live the Law of Chastity.  Study.  BE what He wants you to be and you'll know it is true.  

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22 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Now that I'm going back to church, one of my goals this year is to gain a personal testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith being a prophet of God.

To give you some background on my own familiarity with the BOM, I've read it 3x cover to cover, I've studied it for many years (seminary, church, serving a mission for 1 year, personal studies...), but yet I've never received a solid answer on if it really is the word of God.  I've prayed on multiple occasions specifically asking God if the BOM is true, and as sincere and earnest as I felt those prayers were, I can say I've honestly never received an answer.  I received positive feelings from time to time, but those positive feelings are not impressed upon me any differently than positive feelings I receive from reading other sources of uplifting literature.

By my own admission, I acknowledge I'm not the most spiritual person. Part of being spiritually in tune with God requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit. So I admit the reason why I haven't gained a testimony of the BOM or Joseph Smith being a prophet of God is because I'm not humble enough.  

But how do I get to that level of humility?  I don't want to keep repeating past efforts just to end up with the same result.  

For anyone who has a true, solid testimony of the BOM and Joseph Smith, could you please share your experience in how you gained such a testimony? I think hearing about the faith of others could help spark some hope for myself. 

To make a long story short, my older brother had several Church pamphlets and a Book or Mormon in the house. When he went off to college I snooped. At some point he bore his testimony, and I too wanted to know what Church to join. Having read the pamphlet "Joseph Smith's Testimony," I knew what to do and received an answer. Within 3 months i read the Book or Mormon cover to cover, prayed about its truthfulness (Moroni's promise was somewhere in the first introductory pages and I took note) and received a witness. That was in 1971 and the rest is history! I was 13 years old at the time, and my parents did not give me permission to see the missionaries, attend church or be baptized, but as you can see it all turn out fine (I too joined 5 years later, in college).

As far as humility goes, just keep praying for it and for to recognize and act on it. That is how I have found to receive help with and overcome my weaknesses.

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I was talking with some missionaries.  As they were discussing the gospel, one of them identified the Holy Ghost.  They said that what I was feeling right then was the Holy Ghost testifying to me that what they were telling me was true.  It dawned on me at that instant, that I had only felt this feeling in a few places.  One was at the Sacrament meetings in the LDS church (you know that feeling which is so comforting at times you feel like going to sleep, but it's not that, because it can also waken you up...weird...I know), another was when I read the Book of Mormon and the New Testament.  It clicked...this really was the Holy Ghost that I was feeling! 

It was so specific...it really was that feeling that I only felt in certain times and places which were associated with the truth and the true gospel.  In that instant, I knew that they were telling the truth and that this was the Holy Ghost.  Since that time I have always been able to identify it and that identification has always stayed true to when and where I should be able to feel it and how it feels.  It really is a peaceful feeling that can also be a burning in the heart. It's almost impossible to describe, like salt, but it is there and identifiable.  It is specifically felt in most LDS Sacrament meetings.  It is felt in the temple.  It is felt when reading the Book of Mormon.  That's the best I can do to help someone identify it from a distance.  If they can separate the feeling they feel in those locations or reading the Book of Mormon and see that specific feeling which is found when they do those things (as opposed to watching Star Wars, or some other popular movie or tv show or skiing, or something like that) they can start to recognize the Holy Ghost and identify when it is there and when they feel it.  Once they know what it feels like they can know that it is telling them the truth of the gospel and the truth of Book of Mormon.

I've had other experiences beyond that, today, however that is the start of when I KNEW what the Holy Ghost felt like and how I knew it was testifying to me.

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I know I already posted in this thread but its an important topic.  I forgot to add that the fact that the Book of Mormon was written in 56 days was also pretty compelling, and Jospeh didn't need a reminder the next day of 'where he was up to' he just started translating again from exactly where he left off.  And the testimony of the 3 witnesses, even after they left the church they never denied the truth of the Book of Mormon.

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On 1/24/2018 at 7:23 AM, JohnsonJones said:

It was so specific...it really was that feeling that I only felt in certain times and places which were associated with the truth and the true gospel.  In that instant, I knew that they were telling the truth and that this was the Holy Ghost.  Since that time I have always been able to identify it and that identification has always stayed true to when and where I should be able to feel it and how it feels.  It really is a peaceful feeling that can also be a burning in the heart. It's almost impossible to describe, like salt, but it is there and identifiable.  It is specifically felt in most LDS Sacrament meetings.  It is felt in the temple.  It is felt when reading the Book of Mormon.  That's the best I can do to help someone identify it from a distance.  If they can separate the feeling they feel in those locations or reading the Book of Mormon and see that specific feeling which is found when they do those things (as opposed to watching Star Wars, or some other popular movie or tv show or skiing, or something like that) they can start to recognize the Holy Ghost and identify when it is there and when they feel it.  Once they know what it feels like they can know that it is telling them the truth of the gospel and the truth of Book of Mormon..

Great observation. That jives with some of my own experiences with the Holy Spirit within the Church

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On 1/23/2018 at 8:53 AM, zil said:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng

If you cannot get up in front of the ward and bear testimony that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, bear that testimony in prayer and see what happens.

Please note @Sunday21's repeated use of the word "sincere" - this is mandatory when dealing with God.

I first was skeptical of this advice, but when I clicked the link and realized Elder Packer wrote it, I took it more seriously. I tried this the other day and prayed the first meaningful prayer I've had in a while. I felt like I could testify in prayer the BOM was true and Joseph Smith was a prophet of God given the fact I've had so many rich and wonderful spiritually experiences in the church. It was a positive prayer that left me with a sense of calmness and confidence in church.

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@NeuroTypical @Carborendum @Traveler @wenglund @Anddenex

After reading your experiences, I suppose most members don’t have single, miraculous, AH-HA! moments when it comes to dicovering the truths of the gospel. 

I figured the majority of seasoned members would have more miraculous-type answers as to how they discovered the truths of the gospel. I know it’s a pretty small sample here with who has responded to this question, but it’s similar to most of the testimonies I’ve in Church over the years. No spiritual blockbuster or cinematic moments happening left and right with members in the church discovering gospel truths. Discovering gospel truths seems to largely be a slow and gradual process that involves worthy living and dedicated, prayerful study.

I’ve questioned the process of obtaining answers from prayer for some time. A very long time! Some of my past questions included: How do positive feelings from prayer validate an answer being true? How positive do the feelings have to be to validate a truth? Do most members just keep praying over and over again until they essentially talk themselves into having a tesimony? I know I’ve been guilty of that in the past! How solid are most testimonies in the Church? Do most people base their religious decisions in this life on faith alone rather than first receiving solid spiritual confirmations of what they believe? And so on and so on.

After pondering some of the responses I’ve received and thinking about in what areas my testimony remains deficient, I concluded that I’ve crossed the line of what I consider to be healthy questioning. The questions I posed are perfectly acceptable to be asked by others, but I’m seeing how my continual questioning is inhibiting my faith from growing further especially considering the spiritual experiences I’ve already had.

I had such a miraculous experience when it came to discovering the power of the Priesthood that I figured I needed to have equally miraculous experiences discovering the other truths of the gospel. But not so. I don’t need miraculous answers for everything. I’m blessed to have to received the few miraculous experiences I did receive. I can start slow and steady with the basics to fill in the gaps of my testimony.

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

 

After reading your experiences, I suppose most members don’t have single, miraculous, AH-HA! moments when it comes to dicovering the truths of the gospel...Discovering gospel truths seems to largely be a slow and gradual process that involves worthy living and dedicated, prayerful study.

I find this quote from Joseph F. Smith to be accurate and has been true in my life:

Quote

"It is not by marvelous manifestations unto us that we shall be established in the truth, but it is by humility and faithful obedience to the commandments and laws of God. When I as a boy first started out in the ministry, I would frequently go out and ask the Lord to show me some marvelous thing, in order that I might receive a testimony. But the Lord withheld marvels from me, and showed me the truth, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little [see 2 Nephi 28:30], until he made me to know the truth from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and until doubt and fear had been absolutely purged from me. He did not have to send an angel from the heavens to do this, nor did he have to speak with the trump of an archangel. By the whisperings of the still small voice of the Spirit of the living God, he gave to me the testimony I possess. And by this principle and power he will give to all the children of men a knowledge of the truth that will stay with them, and it will make them to know the truth, as God knows it, and to do the will of the Father as Christ does it. And no amount of marvelous manifestations will ever accomplish this." (Source)

On my mission I was given the privilege to get to know a gentlemen who was a strong anti-Mormon before joining the Church. For a number of years he would invite missionaries over just to argue. His conversion is an exception and a marvelous exception. Not everyone is like Saul who became Paul, but there are people who are converted through miraculous and marvelous methods.

Some of my past questions included: How do positive feelings from prayer validate an answer being true? How positive do the feelings have to be to validate a truth? 

We all have questions, and questions are necessary for growth. I have loved this quote ever since I heard it on my mission, "Revelation can not be received without a questions asked." I have learned how important it is for us to ask the right questions; HOWEVER, I still have questions and what I see even in the Church do not make sense -- add up -- but this does not mean the Church is not true. It is simply an unanswered question.

Do most members just keep praying over and over again until they essentially talk themselves into having a testimony?

I don't know if "most" members, but every member can be deceived if they are not following the brethren. Yes, we can talk ourselves into many things, even a testimony in false principles and truth. We experience this even on this site. People who know better than the prophets and apostles. This is why we have been commanded to love God first, which means we love his servants.

The wonderful aspect is that we have been given guidelines to know truth from error. One thing for certain is when prophets have declared something factual, and then someone says something different we can know for sure that they are incorrect. As a simple example, Jesus in scripture said pray to the Father, and we have groups who pray to Heavenly Mother. If we allow ourselves to partake of actions that are clearly against scripture, then we are placing ourselves in waters where the adversary is able to give us something to drink.

Do most people base their religious decisions in this life on faith alone rather than first receiving solid spiritual confirmations of what they believe? And so on and so on.

I wouldn't be able to accurately give any witness pertaining to "most" people, but there are definitely people whose belief is a result, a gift, of believing the witness of others. They themselves are walking by faith through the witness of another person. On my mission, I can only think of two people that may have been within this group, while the others all received a witness, some for of confirmation, that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored and that the Book of Mormon was true. In one of my areas, all three baptisms were the result of dreams, clear dreams and visions. Others simply received a confirmation from the Holy Ghost that it was true. This was my experience, all who read the Book of Mormon with a sincere heart before God were converted.

I concluded that I’ve crossed the line of what I consider to be healthy questioning. The questions I posed are perfectly acceptable to be asked by others, but I’m seeing how my continual questioning is inhibiting my faith from growing further especially considering the spiritual experiences I’ve already had.

Excellent! We can not progress without questions and answers, and we also can not progress when we become fixated on particular questions that really do not benefit us spiritually or temporally, and some questions (unanswered) we simply need to wait until the Lord does answer us. We all have to come to this knowledge, knowing when to question, how to question, and to simply move forward in faith while we have questions being grateful for those that have been answered.

I had such a miraculous experience when it came to discovering the power of the Priesthood that I figured I needed to have equally miraculous experiences discovering the other truths of the gospel. But no so. I don’t need miraculous answers for everything. I’m blessed to have to received the few miraculous experiences I did receive. I can start slow and steady with the basics. I’ve had enough spiritual confirmations of the Church to let my faith grow in the BOM and Joseph Smith.

Wonderful! This is why I love the Tree of Life, it is a pattern that when followed we find ourselves continually partaking of the most precious fruit - the condescension of God (the love of God).

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2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I’ve questioned the process of obtaining answers from prayer for some time. A very long time! Some of my past questions included: How do positive feelings from prayer validate an answer being true? How positive do the feelings have to be to validate a truth? Do most members just keep praying over and over again until they essentially talk themselves into having a tesimony? I know I’ve been guilty of that in the past! How solid are most testimonies in the Church? Do most people base their religious decisions in this life on faith alone rather than first receiving solid spiritual confirmations of what they believe? 

Everything has to start with faith.  You'll find that any truth is that way.  Even atheists have to have faith to believe a scientific truth.  But it is the life experience through knowing the truth that tells you how well placed that faith was.  The Lord never intended for anyone to remain in blindness forever.  Faith is a stepping stone.  Even blind faith, when placed on something that will eventually prove true, is well placed.  

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

After pondering some of the responses I’ve received and thinking about in what areas my testimony remains deficient, I concluded that I’ve crossed the line of what I consider to be healthy questioning. The questions I posed are perfectly acceptable to be asked by others, but I’m seeing how my continual questioning is inhibiting my faith from growing further especially considering the spiritual experiences I’ve already had.

Well, since I'm not sure what you are talking about, I can't comment on that directly.  But I'll paraphrase what Elder Bednar said about questions and doubt.

Doubt (if you look up the definition) is based on suspicion of something nefarious.  Questions can be based in doubt or curiosity or simple ignorance. 

If questions are based in the admission of ignorance or simply asked out of curiosity, there is nothing wrong with questions.  It is when you are motivated by suspicion that you're probably going the wrong direction.

I'd add that questions asked in humility will tend to send you down the right path.  Questions where you DEMAND and answer do not show humility.

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Although I have been a Christian for a very long time, I am relatively new to the LDS faith, having been baptized late in 2016.  I have not gotten all the way through the book of Mormon yet.  When I first became LDS most of my LDS scripture study (half being the Bible and the other half being LDS) I spent most of my time going through D&C and writings on church history (so I'd have an idea of how the church was run and and idea of who you all were talking about when you'd drop names like Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery).  

So imagine my surprise when I was assigned to give a talk on the my testimony of the Book of Mormon.  At the time I had only gotten half way through Alma, so I first thought that, "Wow!  This is really going to be a short talk."  But as I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that if I really didn't have a testimony of the Book of Mormon I probably wouldn't have become one in the first place.  Then I remember the scripture from Galatians 5:  But the fruit of the Spirit is lovejoypeacelong sufferinggentlenessgoodness, faith, meeknesstemperanceagainst such there is no law.  And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.  Gal 5:22-24.    When I thought of this it occurred to me that I did have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I had a testimony of the BOM because the members of my ward displayed the fruits of the spirit. The testimony was of the the people in my ward, the fellow members of priesthood quorum, it was those people who had helped me in my walk with Christ.

I attended our local ward for five years before becoming a Mormon.  I came from a strong evangelical background and regularly attended the local Assemblies of God church.  But never did the people in my ward treat me like an outsider.  If I shared what was on my heart on Fast Sunday in Sacrament Meeting, no one said boo.  When I participated in Sunday School or Priesthood quorum no one told me to shut up, even when I drew outside the lines (which was often).  If I showed up to help with a service project they were happy for another set of hands.  In fact there was never a time when I was treated like anything other than another brother in Christ.  When I needed someone to agree with me in prayer or give me a blessing it was the members of my ward who were there to do that.  When my family was going through a rough time financially it was the church who helped us (despite only two members of our household being members at the time).  When my wife was deployed to Iraq the Bishop and Stake President made regular visits to make sure my family and I were okay.  Etc, etc, ad nasium....

I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon long before I became LDS because I saw the effects that it had on the people in my church family.  I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon because of how my own life has changed since becoming a member of the church.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, since I'm not sure what you are talking about, I can't comment on that directly.  But I'll paraphrase what Elder Bednar said about questions and doubt.

Doubt (if you look up the definition) is based on suspicion of something nefarious.  Questions can be based in doubt or curiosity or simple ignorance. 

If questions are based in the admission of ignorance or simply asked out of curiosity, there is nothing wrong with questions.  It is when you are motivated by suspicion that you're probably going the wrong direction.

I realized that my view of the BOM and Joseph Smith is so skeptical right now, that continuing to focus on these sore spots is not in my best interest under my current perspective.

I want to continue hearing about others’ experiences with things like discovering the BOM to be true, but I need to dial down my skepticism. The faith of others won’t build me up when my own lackluster experience with the BOM is preventing me from having an open mind.

So to put it more accurately, I realized my past perspective of the BOM and Joseph Smith needs to be changed for me to engage in healthy questioning. The answer that came to mind is that having faith is more important than getting every question answered the way I want it to be answered, and that the Holy Spirit will work within me if I allow it to 

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9 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I realized that my view of the BOM and Joseph Smith is so skeptical right now, that continuing to focus on these sore spots is not in my best interest under my current perspective.

I want to continue hearing about others’ experiences with things like discovering the BOM to be true, but I need to dial down my skepticism. The faith of others won’t build me up when my own lackluster experience with the BOM is preventing me from having an open mind.

So to put it more accurately, I realized my past perspective of the BOM and Joseph Smith needs to be changed for me to engage in healthy questioning. The answer that came to mind is that having faith is more important than getting every question answered the way I want it to be answered, and that the Holy Spirit will work within me if I allow it to 

In other words, you've already developed a suspicious attitude regarding the Book of Mormon.  Not only that, but it sounds like you've pre-programmed your thought processes to automatically jump to the most critical attitude about anything your read in the Book of Mormon.

Yes, if you don't read and pray WITH REAL INTENT then you will never gain a testimony of it.  Talk to your bishop and your home teachers if you feel comfortable enough to do so.  They may be able to help you get over the suspicion and your knee jerk reaction to negativity about the BoM.

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24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

In other words, you've already developed a suspicious attitude regarding the Book of Mormon.  Not only that, but it sounds like you've pre-programmed your thought processes to automatically jump to the most critical attitude about anything your read in the Book of Mormon.

Yes, if you don't read and pray WITH REAL INTENT then you will never gain a testimony of it.  Talk to your bishop and your home teachers if you feel comfortable enough to do so.  They may be able to help you get over the suspicion and your knee jerk reaction to negativity about the BoM.

But I’ve only developed that knee-jerk reaction after having seemingly prayed with real intent multiple times over the years with no memorable result. 

That’s why I said earlier that I don’t want to keep putting forth the same effort to only arrive at the same disappointing result.

I want to find out how much more I need to push myself to find those answers I’ve been looking for. Was I close to it before? Within arm’s reach? Did I need to fast for one more day? Pray an hour longer? I really thought I prayed with real intent, but apparently I didn’t. How can I be lying to myself that I didn’t pray with real intent when I feel like I did? What did I not give to the Lord that prevented the Holy Spirit from communicating with me?

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

But I’ve only developed that knee-jerk reaction after having seemingly prayed with real intent multiple times over the years with no memorable result. 

That’s why I said earlier that I don’t want to keep putting forth the same effort to only arrive at the same disappointing result.

I want to find out how much more I need to push myself to find those answers I’ve been looking for. Was I close to it before? Within arm’s reach? Did I need to fast for one more day? Pray an hour longer? I really thought I prayed with real intent, but apparently I didn’t. How can I be lying to myself that I didn’t pray with real intent when I feel like I did? What did I not give to the Lord that prevented the Holy Spirit from communicating with me?

I'm no expert on any of this at all.  But I do see you are putting a lot of pressure and stress on yourself over this.  I think you need to chill out a bit.  Maybe look at the logical reasons for the truth of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, there are HEAPS of them trust me.  Then you can relax and feel the confirmation by the spirit naturally, because you won't have any doubt anymore.  It worked for me, maybe it can work for you too.  Honestly when you really truely look into it, and examine all the evidence, its impossible to believe this isn't true.

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8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I realized that my view of the BOM and Joseph Smith is so skeptical right now, that continuing to focus on these sore spots is not in my best interest under my current perspective.

I want to continue hearing about others’ experiences with things like discovering the BOM to be true, but I need to dial down my skepticism. The faith of others won’t build me up when my own lackluster experience with the BOM is preventing me from having an open mind.

So to put it more accurately, I realized my past perspective of the BOM and Joseph Smith needs to be changed for me to engage in healthy questioning. The answer that came to mind is that having faith is more important than getting every question answered the way I want it to be answered, and that the Holy Spirit will work within me if I allow it to 

I like your line of thinking. I would say that having belief or even a desire to believe is a good enough starting point. You have probably read or heard the below from Elder Holland but it bears repeating and consideration. He said: 

Quote

In moments of fear or doubt or troubling times, hold the ground you have already won, even if that ground is limited. In the growth we all have to experience in mortality, the spiritual equivalent of this boy’s affliction or this parent’s desperation is going to come to all of us. When those moments come and issues surface, the resolution of which is not immediately forthcoming, hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes. It was of this very incident, this specific miracle, that Jesus said, “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.” The size of your faith or the degree of your knowledge is not the issue—it is the integrity you demonstrate toward the faith you do have and the truth you already know. ("Lord, I believe", GC April 2013)

 Pay particular attention to the last thought; it is the integrity you demonstrate toward the faith you do have the the truth you already know that will really allow you to gain greater faith. I have, and have had, many questions about details in the BoM, about Joseph Smith, about church history, about stories in the Bible, etc, etc. But I have learned to ask them while firmly planted in the fertile soil of faith and belief. I can ask a question of the scriptures and the Lord can trust me not to throw all the knowledge he has given me away if the answer is not forthcoming. He answers many questions through his spirit, but if there are some questions I don't receive answers to when I ask, then I just move on. Perhaps I'll come back to them at some later date, but I know I'll find answers in time. What I have gained has been hard won and I'm not going to be so faithless as to give that up and crumble to bits if one of my many questions is not answered to my satisfaction or within a certain time table. 

So keep moving forward in the light you do have. By so doing your light will illuminate one area and then another area. Moving in this fashion, step by step and bit by bit, you will grow until your light becomes a flame of unquenchable fire leading to eternal life.

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