tithing and shaming the disabled


cosmos206
 Share

Recommended Posts

I was recently baptized in my ward and I have received conflicting advice on  tithing. I am on SSDI my total income for the month is under $900, I don't get Medicaid just medicare. I have a disorder called CIDP (Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyradiculoneuropathy). I have to see a neurologist twice a month, a nerve and pain specialist once a month and my regular doctor once a month for my condition and for diabetes. Each specialist is $75 out of pocket for each visit and $25 for my regular doctor. My meds right now are $107 a month, with fentanyl patchs and muscle relaxers being added next month which will add almost $90 a month to my bill.

 

Right now to be able to cover my bills I only can use my food stamps to get my food and my diet is now less then a 1000  calories a day. I am married but my wife is in school to get an accounting degree and can not work due to classes, so mine is the only income for the next 3 years and we still have to find money for when she has to switch to a 4 year school (2 years at community and 2 at a 4 year school to finish). We have been told over and over we need to tithe the full 10%. I have been told not to worry and just do it even if it means I don't have the money to get my meds or see my doctor. "God will provide" right? The day after we were Baptized the Bishop informed us that there was not form of assistance the ward could provide even though we never asked. 

 

So what should I do? If I pay my wife will have to leave school, or I go without meds or I lose my apartment and go homeless. If I go without meds I will die, my health doesn't allow for that. I am bedridden 3 weeks out of each month on average so me finding work is not an option. My wife, who is 20 years younger, leaving school is not an option. Being homeless will never be an option, and with no help from the ward I'm at a loss with what to do. I have offered to do some type of work for the ward but the Bishop said that's not an option. In a ward where 10% of the people are current with their tithing while being able bodied and working white collar jobs ( almost everyone has a new car and own their home) it feels as though we are being singled out.

 

Some members have stated that  tithing would make us dependent on church welfare and therefore we should be exempt, while ward leaders and elders are telling us to pay even if that means giving up my meds. After all my bills are paid ( that is just rent, electric, meds, doctors and internet due to my wife having 3 online courses and a bus pass so I can get to appointments) I have less then $20 left of my check. 10% of my income is $87. So we've cut our diet to around 1000 calories a day (being diabetic I'm supposed to have 1900 or more a day) should I end my wife's future and pull her out of school, stop taking my meds or seeing my doctor, or become homeless to pay the monies owed for tithing?

Ever visit we receive at our apartment from the missionaries nothing was discussed except tithing. Since we were baptized the only thing the Bishop has discussed with us is tithing. The past 5 Sundays the main subject is tithing and food offerings (but if there is no food help or welfare assistance in the ward why is it still being collected?).

So is my death what is needed to show my faith or ending my wife's future and the ability to pay more then the $87 they would receive now in a few years? I know the stock answer is pay now reap later, which is fine, but for me that will be months not years like for most members. Is this how the church is supposed to function or is this just the ward I am stuck with? My ward is a 30 minuet drive from us even though we have a ward 10 minutes from us. So instead of catching a bus we have to beg rides from people (set up by the missionaries so we have come to expect a 30 minute lecture on tithing) I am being shamed on a weekly basis for having a disability and not having the income to pay the full tithing.

What are my options?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, cosmos206 said:

In a ward where 10% of the people are current with their tithing while being able bodied and working white collar jobs ( almost everyone has a new car and own their home) it feels as though we are being singled out.

First of all, forget the above.  Stop comparing yourself to others.  Stop worrying about whether / how others are sinning.  This can only harm you and never help.  Their choices are theirs and they will answer for them.  Your choices are yours and you will answer for them.  So just let it go.  You cannot change it, so don't let it change you.

15 minutes ago, cosmos206 said:

So instead of catching a bus we have to beg rides from people (set up by the missionaries so we have come to expect a 30 minute lecture on tithing) I am being shamed on a weekly basis for having a disability and not having the income to pay the full tithing.

Choose to be humble rather than being ashamed.

16 minutes ago, cosmos206 said:

Some members have stated that...

Members (including us) have no authority or keys to tell you about tithing.  This is between you, the Lord, and your bishop.

17 minutes ago, cosmos206 said:

In a ward where 10% of the people are current with their tithing ...

Ever visit we receive at our apartment from the missionaries nothing was discussed except tithing. Since we were baptized the only thing the Bishop has discussed with us is tithing. The past 5 Sundays the main subject is tithing and food offerings (but if there is no food help or welfare assistance in the ward why is it still being collected?).

This sounds like a much larger problem than just whether you (one person) pay tithing.  It sounds like this is a ward or stake problem.  If that's the case, you should let go of your feelings of being "singled out" as it's probable every person who isn't paying a full tithe is feeling the same way.  Either way, that feeling is not helping you.

19 minutes ago, cosmos206 said:

What are my options?

NOTE: in everything I write hereafter, I'm not saying you should or should not pay your tithing.  I'm saying you should work to understand the law, reject the negative feelings you're having now, and increase your faith (and trust in and love for the Lord).  Do this and eventually the Lord will help you to the right conclusion.  If your best does not include paying tithing right now, that's between you and the Lord, but do your best, whatever it is, and be honest with yourself and the Lord (don't lull yourself into a false sense of complacency).  So...

Tithing is between you, the Lord, and your bishop.  That said, I would recommend you work on changing yourself (because that's all you have power to change).  Try to let go of hard feelings towards others who appear to be better off.  Choose to feel humble and grateful rather than ashamed.  Study the law of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, the law of the fast, and the Sabbath (I feel like these are all related in that they promise blessings when we choose to give up a portion of what the Lord has given us).  As you study, pray for guidance.

At the end of the day, your question is one of faith - do I trust that the Lord will take care of me when paying my tithing will leave me without the ability to pay for basic necessities myself?  You've already done the math and done your best to maximize what you can get from your income - that's good.  Now let go of the math (it can't help you further) and believe at least in the possibility that the Lord can do what you cannot.  This isn't necessarily something you can come to believe instantly.  You may have to work on it for a long time, but I believe you will be blessed in greater abundance if you let go of your fear and embrace the infinite possibilities available to the Lord.  That doesn't mean you have to pay tithing this instant and spend the rest of the month fretting over your lack of money - it means work to change your pattern of thinking and feeling, so that you can both change your behavior and receive additional blessings.

You might also study the scriptures looking explicitly for the pattern sometimes called "The Nephite Promise" - which is, "obey and prosper" - but it's always in that order - we must obey first, and the Lord prospers us second.  I see this pattern most easily in the Book of Mormon and Old Testament, but it's there in all the volumes of scripture.

Finally, in my experience, when I wanted something changed, but didn't feel I could change it myself, I found that if I included a request for the change in every prayer, and then got up and did the best I could to obey, the change was eventually brought about.  I think this pattern of doing our best to obey, and relying on the Lord for everything else, brings improvement (slowly, perhaps, but it comes).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome aboard, @cosmos206!

I don’t think any reasonably informed person is seriously going to tell you to tithe yourself to death, or out of your apartment, or out of your wife’s education.

That said, your wife’s status as a full-time student may qualify your family for sources of revenue, including grants and student loans, that you haven’t tapped yet.  (SSDI is not intended to be used to put the recipient’s spouse through school, or—as far as I know—to support the recipient’s dependents at all).  If she’s only studying part-time, then that begs the question of why she can’t stretch a little to find a job that works with her schedule.  You don’t have to answer those questions, of course—but without that information, anyone trying to advise you is basically shooting in the dark.

Again—no, tithing isn’t supposed to leave you without the necessities of life.  But I submit that among other things, it *IS* supposed to induce you to reconsider plans, decisions, and habits you’ve already made that may be financially sub-optimal.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is tough, I am not your Bishop.  My answer is NOT in lieu of what your Bishop or leaders would tell you.

Upfront, the rote answer is to always pay your tithing.

The following is my understanding...which is not DEFINITIVE.

It gets a little bit more tricky.  Technically, it is illegal for a church or any organization to require an individual to pay money to them on subsistence government benefits.  I don't think a lot of church leaders (and this is where the white collar middle class recognition comes in) realize this.  They CANNOT tell you that you have to pay tithing on Disability insurance/benefits.  This can be considered defrauding the government in some nations (though there may be some out there that are not like this).  That said, in the US, there have been workarounds which allow an individual to pay tithing on their disability insurance/benefits out of their own free choice, if they so desire, if I understand the law correctly.  However, they cannot be compelled to do so by a religious organization.

This comes more into play if one has a fiduciary.  A fiduciary is one who would take care or charge of one's benefits if they are unable to do so.  In this instance, if a fiduciary decided to pay tithing to the LDS church, but neglected your own needs and necessities, it could turn into a very bad legal case against them.  At the minimum, they would probably be removed as a fiduciary.  As it gets worse, you get into criminal charges against the individual who did this act.

Taken in this light, if a church official is trying to force or compel one to pay on these payments, they can report that church official.  I would HIGHLY suggest that one advises a church official of this...FIRST.  In this instance, ignorance is NORMALLY accepted as an excuse by those who have to make a quick judgment.  After that, if they continue to persist, it becomes a different matter.

This is why, unless in specific situations, leaders are normally not supposed to give specific instructions on what or how an individual is to tithe.  They can relay the information regarding tithing (10% of all your increase) and the commandment, but they cannot start specifying on what being a full tithe payer has to involve in many situations.  They cannot say, you must pay gross or net, or that you need to do this or that.  They can give an opinion (for example, one may say they think you should pay tithing on disability payments...but they cannot say you have to do this...and if they realize that they cannot compel you, they could even say...they think you would be fine NOT paying tithing on your disability insurance or benefits or Social Security retirement...but they cannot COMPEL you to pay).

Normally, instead of getting into the nitty gritty, I imagine most Bishops will try to avoid touching this, and instead just state the commandment and say...we believe in paying tithing which is 10% of one's increase.

Whether you are a full tithe payer is between YOU and the LORD.  In many ways, this is something you need to take to the Lord and pray about.  I know that there are those who are on Social Security Disability insurance or other benefits from the Government that pay no tithing.  If they say they are a full tithe payer in these instances, many Bishops would accept their word for it.  One reason may be because it may be seen as trying to compel the individual to pay money if they said they had to in order to get a temple recommend or something else along those lines.  Others may see it for different reasons (such as having already paid into it previously when taxed, or that it is technically government money...etc...etc...etc).

There are others who may try to enforce that one needs to pay on disability insurance/benefits or any government benefits in order to get a temple recommend or otherwise.  This is a VERY risky and thin line.  Thus far, the governments have not cracked down on these practices (which is fortunate), but if the government ever decided to do so...it could be a very thin line they are walking on whether they are doing something illegal, or whether it would be counted legal. 

As LDS members, we believe in that the Articles of Faith account for our beliefs.  The twelfth article of Faith states...

Quote

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Technically, then, this means that you could consider that the Disability insurance is not considered increase specifically, but rather considered the property of the government that is being utilized to ensure that citizens of the nation they are part of do not suffer unnecessarily. Hence, technically you could choose not to pay tithing on these benefits and still be a member in good standing.  You simply state that you are a full tithe payer on what you are allowed to pay tithing on, and that would be the end of it.

That does NOT mean that your Bishop will accept this answer.  It is just what you might be able to do technically.

Because of the Laws in the US (though in some other nations, this is NOT allowed), you are allowed free choice in the matter and are allowed to pay money to churches if you so desire.  Once again, technically, if you pay this and you cannot support the necessities of life, some eyebrows MAY BE RAISED in the government.  It may even call into question your ability to care for yourself and make viable decisions, depending on the circumstances.  At worst, this would mean you get a fiduciary after a suspension of benefits for a while (which, fall under the categories above and mean that there are penalties for them if they decide they have to pay tithing at the cost of your fundamentals of life and needs).

In the end, it is YOUR choice on what you pay and how you interpret the law of the tithe (in the US, in some nations you are NOT allowed to pay money to a church on government money).  Your situation sounds unique and specific.  I cannot tell you whether you should pay or not, but that it is YOUR choice on what you need to pay, how much, or how little.  The only thing I would be interested in if I were a Bishop asking you about your tithing is your answer at the end of the year, if you could honestly tell me whether you were a full tithe payer or not.

 

Onto a bonus situation.  Let's say that you suddenly are brimming with money.  You have a great income.  I may wonder in that instance, if you pay zero tithing.  However, let's say you said you were not a full tithe payer...what do you think is going to happen?  The worst I think most Bishops would do (or are even allowed to do) is to simply not give a temple recommend to someone.  This may not be a big loss to many people.  They still are fully able to attend church, fulfill church callings if the bishop calls them, and all other things they normally could do.  Nothing happens to their membership, they are not seen as bad members or anything else.  Compared to the number of members in the LDS church, very few, percentagewise, are actually full tithe payers. 

I would always advise someone to pay their tithing.  I am not going to dictate what is or is not a full tithe payer in most instances for an individual in specific situations.  That is between the individual and the Lord, and for the individual to decide.  It is a commandment to pay our tithing, and it is outlined what this is.  There are probably many different interpretations of the very same scripture. 

I do not know if what I said will be useful...or even resolve your issue, but hopefully it can help you in your decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Technically, it is illegal for a church or any organization to require an individual to pay money to them on subsistence government benefits.

In what country? I'm no lawyer, but I'm confident that such is not the case in the US. Religious organizations here can mandate any financial stipulations from their worshipers that they want to. It's called "freedom of religion". If a person pays those requisite funds wrongfully from government funds (e.g. sells off food coupons), the wrongdoing is the individual's, not the church's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

In what country? I'm no lawyer, but I'm confident that such is not the case in the US. Religious organizations here can mandate any financial stipulations from their worshipers that they want to. It's called "freedom of religion". If a person pays those requisite funds wrongfully from government funds (e.g. sells off food coupons), the wrongdoing is the individual's, not the church's.

Yep, it is the case.  If a church or other organization requires someone to pay money on government benefits, it is a crime.  It is NOT a crime if someone choose to pay that money, but it IS a crime to compel or force them to do so.

It is even MORESO, if one is mentally handicapped.  It's even stronger in case if one is a fiduciary, in which instance it is spelled out specifically in multiple locations on what that money can or cannot be spent on.

Probably NOT a popular thing for some church ministries to find out (occasionally it is this loophole which is utilized to take down a church, it is one of the prosecutorial means which they are actually using in a Utah case currently if I understand correctly), but government benefits that are not taxable cannot be required to be given by a church.  It can be freely given by choice, but if a church requires it, or takes it, that is something that can be prosecuted.  This extends not just to money, but to any government benefit for those who are needy or disabled.

Perhaps welfare housing is a better example that you can understand. If one had welfare housing and tried to give a room to a church and the church took it, when found out that church would be kicked out of the welfare housing.  The money the government is giving for these payments are specified for certain things.  This is why there are certain controls on what a fiduciary can spend it on. 

This does NOT negate the law of tithing, but it IS something that one needs to take into consideration when thinking about what composes or does not compose a full tithe.

Edited by JohnsonJones
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Yep, it is the case.  If a church or other organization requires someone to pay money on government benefits, it is a crime.  It is NOT a crime if someone choose to pay that money, but it IS a crime to compel or force them to do so.

"Pay tithing or I won't give you a temple recommend." Not illegal.

"Pay tithing or I'll beat you up." Illegal.

This has nothing to do with different churchs' "requirements" and everything to do with forcibly extorting money from someone. Don't confuse the latter issue by trying to dress it up as the former.

I do not believe your word on this, @JohnsonJones. If you can find a reliable legal resource that backs you up, then I will believe you. Until then, what you say in this matter sounds preposterous to me.

Edited by Vort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Vort said:

"Pay tithing or I won't give you a temple recommend." Not illegal.

"Pay tithing or I'll beat you up." Illegal.

This has nothing to do with different churchs' "requirements" and everything to do with forcibly extorting money from someone. Don't confuse the latter issue by trying to dress it up as the former.

I do not believe your word on this, @JohnsonJones. If you can find a reliable legal resource that backs you up, then I will believe you. Until then, what you say in this matter is preposterous.

It's a VERY FINE line.  There is currently prosecution against some in Utah in this very light.  In some instances, yes, it could actually be prosecuted.  Thus far, the US government has NOT had a crack down on this, but if they did... I certainly would NOT want to be the bishop that said I won't give you a temple recommend if you do not pay tithing on your government benefits that even the government doesn't tax.  I've seen instances where the government HAS prosecuted on a basis similar to that, and cases where they did not.

Normally, forgiveness is granted (aka...not prosecution) on those who claim they were ignorant, but if one persists...normally that can result in harsher consequences, up to, and including fines and prison.  The LDS church's official stance as being that it is a choice of the member to decide, and NOT the bishop means that those caught in this type of situation will NOT be backed up by the LDS church as it is a situation of their own making. 

You do not have to believe me on this, it does not change the law nor make it so that you are able to break it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

There is currently prosecution against some in Utah in this very light.

Please cite the case. I do not believe that the LDS Church is beholden to any possible degree to the US government in how they dole out their temple recommends.

6 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

You do not have to believe me on this, it does not change the law nor make it so that you are able to break it.

No, it does not change the law. Nor does your affirmation that what you say is indeed true make it true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Welcome aboard, @cosmos206!

I don’t think any reasonably informed person is seriously going to tell you to tithe yourself to death, or out of your apartment, or out of your wife’s education.

That said, your wife’s status as a full-time student may qualify your family for sources of revenue, including grants and student loans, that you haven’t tapped yet.  (SSDI is not intended to be used to put the recipient’s spouse through school, or—as far as I know—to support the recipient’s dependents at all).  If she’s only studying part-time, then that begs the question of why she can’t stretch a little to find a job that works with her schedule.  You don’t have to answer those questions, of course—but without that information, anyone trying to advise you is basically shooting in the dark.

Again—no, tithing isn’t supposed to leave you without the necessities of life.  But I submit that among other things, it *IS* supposed to induce you to reconsider plans, decisions, and habits you’ve already made that may be financially sub-optimal.

My wife is a full time student and she works in the disability compliance office at the school to help pay for classes. She leaves for class at 7 a.m. and is in class until  10 a.m. then goes to work until 2 p.m. She then has a 45 minute bus ride home,she does her online course work until we eat dinner and she studies until 10 p.m. Wednesday, Saturday she uses to study more and take her online tests and quizzes. She helps me with my meds, and gets me ready for the day when I'm bedridden, helps me bathe and makes food for the week.

I was in an electrical trouble shooter, until my illness struck 20 years ago. The first sign that I had an autoimmune disorder was when I woke up parallelized for 3 years. It is one of the first symptoms of GBS. CIDP which I have now is the chronic form of GBS. My symptoms include nerve pain (the pain specialist equates it to being a burn victim with burns on 90% of the body) Muscle weakness, muscle spasms that are extreme enough to fracture bones, fatigue, heart mummer, breathing problems, and inability to swallow, and a constellation of other minor problems.

 

"But I submit that among other things, it *IS* supposed to induce you to reconsider plans, decisions, and habits you’ve already made that may be financially sub-optimal."

 

Yes I would reconsider having this disorder, but that decision is out of my hands, my habit of having my body lock up for days at a time is very inconvenient. My chocking on my own saliva and food or having to be put on a respirator isn't much fun either. I guess I should have planned better in my 20's for an extremely rare disorder to strike me.

So I guess looking at it that way and not planning better, have made my choices financially sub-optimal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, cosmos206 said:

Yes I would reconsider having this disorder, but that decision is out of my hands, my habit of having my body lock up for days at a time is very inconvenient. My chocking on my own saliva and food or having to be put on a respirator isn't much fun either. I guess I should have planned better in my 20's for an extremely rare disorder to strike me.

So I guess looking at it that way and not planning better, have made my choices financially sub-optimal.

Cosmos206, please don't take it this way.  What was meant was to reconsider what you can control and see if there are any changes which can be made.  If there aren't, there aren't.  (No one was trying to imply there were or weren't, only the wisdom of verifying.)  No one here intends to find fault with you for things which are beyond your control, only to encourage and help you find the things which are within your control.  And perhaps help you find ways of accepting the things beyond your control.

Truly, there's no ill will for you here.

Edited by zil
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, pam said:

I am so sorry you are having to endure all of this.  :(

I agree. You have my sympathy, cosmos. I wish I had good advice to offer. @zil's seemed top-notch. If I were to add anything, I suppose it would be, in addition to not worrying about what other Saints (sinners or otherwise) may say, that you look for reasons to tithe and the means to do so, rather than looking for loopholes or excuses not to. Let your bishop be your guide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, cosmos206 said:

My wife is a full time student and she works in the disability compliance office at the school to help pay for classes. She leaves for class at 7 a.m. and is in class until  10 a.m. then goes to work until 2 p.m. She then has a 45 minute bus ride home,she does her online course work until we eat dinner and she studies until 10 p.m. Wednesday, Saturday she uses to study more and take her online tests and quizzes. She helps me with my meds, and gets me ready for the day when I'm bedridden, helps me bathe and makes food for the week.

I was in an electrical trouble shooter, until my illness struck 20 years ago. The first sign that I had an autoimmune disorder was when I woke up parallelized for 3 years. It is one of the first symptoms of GBS. CIDP which I have now is the chronic form of GBS. My symptoms include nerve pain (the pain specialist equates it to being a burn victim with burns on 90% of the body) Muscle weakness, muscle spasms that are extreme enough to fracture bones, fatigue, heart mummer, breathing problems, and inability to swallow, and a constellation of other minor problems.

 

"But I submit that among other things, it *IS* supposed to induce you to reconsider plans, decisions, and habits you’ve already made that may be financially sub-optimal."

 

Yes I would reconsider having this disorder, but that decision is out of my hands, my habit of having my body lock up for days at a time is very inconvenient. My chocking on my own saliva and food or having to be put on a respirator isn't much fun either. I guess I should have planned better in my 20's for an extremely rare disorder to strike me.

So I guess looking at it that way and not planning better, have made my choices financially sub-optimal.

That sounds like a terribly difficult schedule/situation, and you certainly have my sympathy.

I guess what I was sort of driving at is, we (as strangers to you and your family) don’t have enough data to really thoroughly address one of the foundational assumptions of your post.  Initially it looked like you were trying to support a family of two on $900/month with $300-400 of that being earmarked for medical treatment; and in that context $80-90/month as tithing indeed seems impossible.  Based on additional clarifications it now looks like there’s more money in the system than that—how much more, of course, is none of our business.   We can all be grateful, though, that your family’s financial picture isn’t as bleak as it first seemed.  And as @zil says, I was merely suggesting a re-think of those things you can control; based on my (erroneous) assumption that your SSDI was your family’s sole source of income. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

@cosmos206-I'm giving you a hug my brother. You are amazing for dealing with this.  Stay strong, you are in my prayers. 

All of us should thank God we there are people like @cosmos206 in the church. People who care enough about the church to ask questions about tithing.We should be very, very grateful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, cosmos206 said:

The day after we were Baptized the Bishop informed us that there was not form of assistance the ward could provide even though we never asked.

That just doesn't even sound right; I've yet to hear a bishop talk to anyone in even minor financial difficulty and not offer at least a week's groceries.  Frankly, I've never heard of a leader at any church not making that offer to even a random stranger on the street; when my ex wife got laid off the same week I had my hours cut, we put off applying for any sort of government aid because the CoC minister across town heard about it and had a couple of his members drop off a minivan load of food, then gave us a number to call if we ran out before the job situation improved.  

As many times as Jesus specifically mentioned feeding the hungry, one might get the impression He meant it.  Wouldn't having your food taken care of for a couple weeks out of each month free up about the right amount for tithing anyway?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Please cite the case. I do not believe that the LDS Church is beholden to any possible degree to the US government in how they dole out their temple recommends.

No, it does not change the law. Nor does your affirmation that what you say is indeed true make it true.

It is actually against the FLDS church in Utah, and it deals with various facets of this.  They were taking food stamps and other benefits, for members to be in full fellowship they had to turn these over to the church and the church redistributed it as they felt they wanted to. 

As for these matters, your opinion can be whatever you want it to be, but that does not change that you cannot force or compel someone to give government money and benefits to a religious organization.  People in the US have their free agency to donate money granted to them by the government in many cases to a religion, as that was a law that was passed, BUT, the religion itself cannot compel or force. 

For example, a Bishop can say they are not granting a temple recommend to someone because they are not a full tithe payer.

HOWEVER...they cannot say they are not granting a temple recommend because someone is not paying the church money out of their government money.  It then becomes something that can be investigated.  A  case may be made if a Bishop says that they are not a full tithe payer because the BISHOP has determined that they  need to pay more out of the money that the government gives someone, and THEN says they aren't given a temple recommend because they are not a full tithe payer.  It becomes VERY questionable.  It is a fine line.

There is a difference between what the government does, and what you earn as a private individual.  Money given in benefits is ultimately reportable by the organization granting those benefits.  This in turn in theory, is reportable to the US government and the TAXPAYERS.  Most Taxpayers are NOT going to approve government money being paid to the LDS church.  HOWEVER...because a law was made (and I think Orrin Hatch was at the forefront of pushing one of these), an individual receiving benefits in the US can DECIDE to give money to a religious organization of their own choice.

However, the intent of these monies are NOT that they are paid to a charity or LDS organization or even a religious organization, but the intent is for the support and welfare of those in need and those who are disabled.  This is why paying it to a religion in some nations is illegal, and in the US, you cannot force or compel someone to pay it to your religion.

Unless you are the one making these decisions (typically the Bishop or Branch President) it really doesn't matter what you think.  HOWEVER...if you ARE the one making these decisions...be VERY careful what you say and do.  A simple complaint, depending on what you decide, can give you not just criminal charges, but prison time and fines.  The LDS church WILL not back up the decision by Bishop who tries to do this and are prosecuted, as the handbook does NOT state this is something they can determine or decide.  The bishop can be led by the spirit, but cannot tell someone they have to pay tithing on their government benefits.

Typically this comes up MORE when someone is a fiduciary (and there are cases on this that prop up more than one may think) for someone getting government benefits and giving money to charities or organization but NOT providing for the person they are a fiduciary for.  The things they can spend the money on is much more explicitly spelled out. 

If one follows the actual things the handbook states, then a Bishop will never tell someone more or less, they will not state that someone has to pay tithing on their government disability typically. 

The thing to tell people is that there is a law of tithing and it says to pay 10% on all our increase.  We are not to tell them that this 10% is on gross, or net, or anything in that light.  We are to ask if they are a full time tithe payer...and if there is something let the spirit guide us rather than dictating it out of our own opinion.

Most of the time it is up to each individual to determine how they pay tithing and what they report, whether they are a full tithe payer or not.  I have seen those who pay tithing on their government benefits.  I have seen those that do not.  There are steps for people to take if someone is breaking the law and trying to abuse those who are on government SSDI or other benefits (for example a Bishop trying to compel someone who is mentally disabled to pay tithing on their disability benefits), however, as I hope no one here would ever try to do that type of abuse, and it is not really all that spiritual, I am not going to post it here.

You don't have to believe me, it really doesn't matter to me in this regard.  This is one area where I unfortunately have FAR more experience in then I would want on anyone (no, luckily I was NOT one of the ones prosecuted, nor have I been involved in criminal activities in this regard).  In fact, I think MANY LDS members do not know this information or have had experience with it.  However, there is good reason why one cannot force or compel someone to pay their money to a religious organization (though, as I said, in the US, they can choose to do so, this is NOT true in every nation out there in the world).  I just don't like members trying to convince those who are the most poor and needy that there is some requirement in the church that they pay tithing on government granted welfare or disability or disability insurance.  There is NOT.  If a Bishop is saying this, it is THAT Bishop and ON that Bishop...it is NOT coming from the Church nor is it dictated as such in any church instruction.

I encourage everyone to pay their tithing which is as I stated, 10% of your increase.  Normally we interpret this as 10% of your pay or income.  What qualifies as income is something I'm not going to get into the nitty, gritty here. 

I am NOT this individuals Bishop though, what their own Bishop decides is up to that Bishop.  IF IT DOES appear that the Bishop is abusing the ideas though, there are ways to talk to the government to investigate the abuse.  Luckily, as far as I know, it rarely happens.  Also, normally it is done out of ignorance rather than knowledge, and a simple call from SS or another government organization can clear it up rapidly.  If the abuse continues, however (which I don't think I have EVER seen), there is a way for an investigation to start and if it is confirmed, prosecution.

On the bright side, as I mentioned before, even if the Bishop decides one is not a full tithe payer...what are the ramifications.  Being a full tithe payer is really between the member and the Lord.  IF the Bishop makes a bad call, well, in this instance that is not going to reflect on the member, but MIGHT (unclear on this) on the Bishop (though I hope small mistakes are forgiven by the Lord when a Bishop or leader makes one). 

If one is not considered a full tithe payer, except for not getting a temple recommend, there is very little other ramifications from it normally.  You still can hold callings, still participate in the church, and are still a full member.  No adverse thing normally happens.

As I said though, we are to encourage people to pay 10% of their increase.  This is the rote answer, and the one if given, least likely to get one in trouble as it is not specifically defining what one must pay upon.  If pushed further we could say it is normally considered 10% of one's income...whatever that consists of...and that interpretation differs from individual to individual.  At the end of the year, many times a Bishop will not even SEE the tithing report (though the ward clerks probably do), all that they are looking for is the answer to the question of whether one is a full tithe payer or not.  You'd be surprised at how many are NOT full tithe payers by their OWN words...not the Bishops.  You probably cannot tell the difference between who is or is not at church, because in truth there is NOT that much of a difference in what someone can do in a church meeting regardless of whether they are a full tithe payer or not.

Edited by JohnsonJones
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Just_A_Guy

My ssdi is $894  every 3'rd of the month that is after the 2% col adjustment. I also get $25 a month medical allowance from the state. My wife is in work study so all that income goes to her tuition and books, we don't see a dime of that. Since we were just married she doesn't get the max amount in Fafsa due to it being calculated on her mothers income this year. Next year she'll receive the max amount because of my income, which will help. This summer she has an unpaid internship but they might be able to help with a scholarship for next year. 

I do not have a problem paying tithing, that has never been the issue. After all my health needs and living expenses are paid I would gladly give what I have left as tithing, I know it would be below the $87 from 10%, but I will gladly give it. Once my wife completes school we are going to pay the balance of the tithing owed. The only problem is being told to give up housing or meds or my wife's school money to pay the tithing. It was suggested we sell my wife's laptop to help meet tithing costs, but she has online classes as well. The Bishop told me how he had to sell his guitar to pay tithing, and the missionaries had to go without gas for their car, and it showed how strong their faith was.Giving up school and a future, housing or meds is in no way the same and is quite insulting.

My issue is out of the meetings we've had with the Bishop and other members, and home visits from the missionaries, the only thing discussed is tithing. My Book of Mormon, Bible, and Gospel Principals have more written in them then the law of tithing. Out of 12 of the last visits 11 have been only about tithing. A total of 6 hours in a car with other members being told to pay the 10% tithing. So 30 hours or more have been devoted to telling us our faith isn't strong enough, and if my faith was as strong as theirs using money for meds wouldn't be a problem. Are all home visits and visits by missionaries going to be about tithing, does scripture come in only when tithing is paid in full? When did it become allowable for the Bishop and missionaries to become self-appointed bill collectors for God and refuse to help with Scripture study and talk only about tithing? When did home visits become about browbeating members to fully pay tithing and not about expanding faith and knowledge of the Scripture?

The issue isn't the amount or the inability to pay tithing, it is being told we lack faith, we are "putting our wants before the church". We're not buying a vacation property, or a second new car. Or spending money on electronics or going to a resort. It is also being confronted by other ward members about how to tithe properly, when we have not discussed it with anyone else. The Bishop had a financial planner come to our house to go over our finances with us and he was at a lose on what we should do. As he said right now we could be totally dependent on church welfare for food and paying the $87 in tithing would make us even more dependent, for help with rent or electric payments. As of right now we are supporting ourselves with what we have, I have never asked for help from charities because I can make ends meet right now, but their is no room to wiggle.







 

Edited by cosmos206
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, NightSG said:

That just doesn't even sound right; I've yet to hear a bishop talk to anyone in even minor financial difficulty and not offer at least a week's groceries.  Frankly, I've never heard of a leader at any church not making that offer to even a random stranger on the street; when my ex wife got laid off the same week I had my hours cut, we put off applying for any sort of government aid because the CoC minister across town heard about it and had a couple of his members drop off a minivan load of food, then gave us a number to call if we ran out before the job situation improved.  

As many times as Jesus specifically mentioned feeding the hungry, one might get the impression He meant it.  Wouldn't having your food taken care of for a couple weeks out of each month free up about the right amount for tithing anyway?

The OP stated they cannot afford food and thus normally get their food via food stamps.  Paying money on the income they receive for housing, medical bills and other necessities is what they are asking about.  Granting them more food could be useful, but really doesn't keep them in shelter or paying for medicine which the OP states that without, they would die.

This brings up another difficulty that We have in our wards, and I'm sure other wards have.  When discussing tithing, people may be surprised at how low the percentage of full tithe payers really is.  HOWEVER, when talking about fast offerings...it becomes a desert.  People expect the church to pay for things like housing and utilities, and if possible, the church does.  HOWEVER...due to the situations I see, sometimes I wonder if a Bishop is called...NOT out of who is best in some areas, but who can afford to pay the most out of pocket to help people.  For example, last month, if a ward gets $120 in Fast offerings and that is what they have on hand in cash to help those who need money...that's it.  That's not enough to even pay a house payment most of the time, much less some utility bills.  Some members do not realize it, but in some wards, the BIGGEST contributor to the Fast offering is probably the Bishop.  The reason is because when a needy member comes and tells you they are going to be kicked out of their house, some Bishops have a LOT of compassion and pay it out of their OWN POCKET.

It's not that the bishop does not want to help in many instances, but literally they HAVE NO MONEY to help.  Even the Bishop, or those that do try to help with their own money, they ONLY HAVE SO MUCH money.  It's a matter that there simply is not enough money given to help all those in need.  Food only helps those who do not get food already via other government programs.  When it comes to money, sometimes that's what is necessary to be provided, but there is a LOT less money given to the church then many people probably think.

(I originally posted this along with my post above, but thought it may be easier to find and read if I posted it separately).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12/28/17
Credit: Direct Deposit from SSA TREAS 310 for XXSOC SEC

Posted on December 28, 2017 at 10:44AM

$894.00
$885.81
 
this is my total monthly income and the $25 med allowance from the state. While my wife has fafsa and work study, her dad helped pay for the books and programs for accounting we could not afford this time. Next year we'll have a $100-200 surplus for the grants.
our rent is $475 and then I have my medical payments, $75-100 for electric leaving on avarage $29 after everything is paid which I give as tithing leaving us nothing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It is actually against the FLDS church in Utah, and it deals with various facets of this.  They were taking food stamps and other benefits, for members to be in full fellowship they had to turn these over to the church and the church redistributed it as they felt they wanted to. 

I suspect you are badly misrepresenting what happened. The only news item that came up in my intensive, 8-second Google search was the following:

http://fox13now.com/2017/12/12/fbi-surveillance-video-shows-flds-food-stamp-fraud-scheme-in-action/

This suggests that the FLDS Church colluded with its members to defraud the government. That is a vastly different thing from what you're claiming: That a church that requires tithing of benefits is acting contrary to the law.

Are there any lawyers on the forum who are willing to weigh in with an opinion on whether JohnsonJones' claims are true or whether they misrepresent the situation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, cosmos206 said:

What are my options?

i am surprised your bishop will not provide you any means of assistance.  i get them asking to pay tithing.  But to let someone who pays their tithing go hungry or potentially homeless - just expecting that God will provide through 'someone else' when we have the means to prevent it.  That just seems the exact opposite of what a person who believes in Jesus should try to do.

Was any reasoning provided as to why they were unwilling to provide any financial assistance?   Perhaps it was because this would disqualify you from the government support your already receive?  

At very least, i would think some meals could be organized, or a requisition to the bishop's storehouse be provided - ESPECIALLY if you are going out on a limb and paying any amount of tithing.  

Edited by lostinwater
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He only said that there was no assistance available for bills or welfare, we hadn't even asked about it. When I asked about doing some activity like working at the warehouse to offset the balance of our tithing which we were told was possible, he told us that was not allowed. I don't know if that is because of changing the ward boundaries or something else. Like I said we have been given so much different advice, without asking for any, nothing make sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share