tithing and shaming the disabled


cosmos206
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13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Financial planners don't help people figure out budgets.

Some will, but only to the extent that having you get a preowned car instead of a new one, or a smaller house than you wanted leaves you with a few hundred more a month to invest so it grows their commission.

But if the bishop can't help, does he really not know of any other local resources?  When I was dropping off flyers at local churches a couple years ago, one thing I noticed was that nearly all had lists of local charities' addresses, phone numbers, hours and what they will help with, on the assumption that anyone asking their (or any) church for help will likely benefit from more than it can offer.

Edited by NightSG
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13 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Some will, but only to the extent that having you get a preowned car instead of a new one, or a smaller house than you wanted leaves you with a few hundred more a month to invest so it grows their commission.

A particular financial planner was pretty upset when I messed up his presentation.  He pointed out that if you followed certain steps, you'd have no additional money taken out of your paycheck thanks to tax deductions, while you implemented 401(k) draws from your pay.  I raised my hand and asked him to clarify something.  I then corrected him on the numbers.  He realized that he just got made.  He apologized and went on with his presentation as if nothing had happened.

Afterward, he mentioned to me that he'd never had anyone correct him on that.  I pointed out that he was talking to a room full of engineers and accountants.  It wouldn't be wise to think he could get away with a math error.

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On 25/01/2018 at 8:11 AM, cosmos206 said:
12/28/17
Credit: Direct Deposit from SSA TREAS 310 for XXSOC SEC

Posted on December 28, 2017 at 10:44AM

$894.00
$885.81
 
this is my total monthly income and the $25 med allowance from the state. While my wife has fafsa and work study, her dad helped pay for the books and programs for accounting we could not afford this time. Next year we'll have a $100-200 surplus for the grants.
our rent is $475 and then I have my medical payments, $75-100 for electric leaving on avarage $29 after everything is paid which I give as tithing leaving us nothing.

I am new to this and I'm not yet a baptised member BUT from my understanding tithing is to be paid on 'what you earn'. If these are government benefits then you shouldn't have to tithe on them.  Student loans are not income either, its a loan.  In fact from what I can work out the only money coming into your marriage that should be tithed on is the income from your wife's part time job.  I don't know what that income is (none of mine, your bishops or anyone else business) but that's all you should be thinking of paying tithes on.  So if you are paying $29 in tithing already and your wife's pay from her part time job is less than $290, then you are ahead on your tithing and you're owed one very big apology for the way you have been treated.

I also don't think its right that you feel like you have to tell anyone how much your money you have, its not the bishops business.  My understanding is you are asked in an interview 'are you paying a honest tithe' or something to that effect, there is no need to tell anyone how much money you have, and I"m pretty sure you don't have to produce your tax return to prove your income, its between you and the lord.  

You can also set up an account and pay tithing online too, this might be a good idea in your situation.

I do find the way you are being treated really disturbing, I think you should be welcomed, especially if you are new members.  I'd be lodging a complaint to the stake president and if that didn't get any results, I'd go over his head too.

I'm so sorry you have been made to feel like this. Your health is important and so are you.

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9 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I am new to this and I'm not yet a baptised member BUT from my understanding tithing is to be paid on 'what you earn'. If these are government benefits then you shouldn't have to tithe on them.  Student loans are not income either, its a loan.  In fact from what I can work out the only money coming into your marriage that should be tithed on is the income from your wife's part time job.  I don't know what that income is (none of mine, your bishops or anyone else business) but that's all you should be thinking of paying tithes on.  So if you are paying $29 in tithing already and your wife's pay from her part time job is less than $290, then you are ahead on your tithing and you're owed one very big apology for the way you have been treated.

I also don't think its right that you feel like you have to tell anyone how much your money you have, its not the bishops business.  My understanding is you are asked in an interview 'are you paying a honest tithe' or something to that effect, there is no need to tell anyone how much money you have, and I"m pretty sure you don't have to produce your tax return to prove your income, its between you and the lord.  

You can also set up an account and pay tithing online too, this might be a good idea in your situation.

I do find the way you are being treated really disturbing, I think you should be welcomed, especially if you are new members.  I'd be lodging a complaint to the stake president and if that didn't get any results, I'd go over his head too.

I'm so sorry you have been made to feel like this. Your health is important and so are you.

I agree that he’s under no obligation to tell anyone what he does or doesn’t receive for money, nor how he receives it.  However, God knows.  

I disagree with your assessment that tithing is paid on “what you earn”.  Tithing is paid on your “increase”.  What that means is between you and God.  If it means “income” to you, I’m in no position to challenge that, nor would I ever declare that you are wrong.  I don’t hold that authority.  I WILL, however, say that is not my prayerful understanding of it.  That understanding applies to me only.  I have no revelation that determines how it should be applied to you.  Again, I don’t hold that authority.  

I would suggest the OP continue to pray on the subject and seek counsel from those in authority if he desires it.  Sometimes we struggle with topics because we KNOW what we should do, yet search for ways not to do it because that path seems impossible.  Reading my missionary thread will show you I have a personal testimony that this is true.  

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12 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

my understanding tithing is to be paid on 'what you earn'.

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

I disagree with your assessment that tithing is paid on “what you earn”.  Tithing is paid on your “increase”.  What that means is between you and God.  If it means “income” to you,

The official statement that is oft repeated is the following:

Quote

The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this

--First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970

It is understood that what constitutes "income" is between the individual/family and the Lord and no one else.

So, what do Church leaders say about it if "No one is justfied in making any other statement than this"?

1) General Conference talks simply emphasize that it is still the Lord's law of finance.
2) They speak of the blessings that will come from obeying the law of tithing.
3) They tell faith building stories of those who paid tithing.
4) (much less common lately) They promote the idea that the more generous you are with your interpretation of tithing, the more blessings you will receive.

On this last point, I've heard some people give a knee jerk objection saying that rich people will be more blessed than poor people.  Not so.  The Lord blesses intent and desire as well.  If you are so poor that you honestly and prayerfully believe you cannot get by on less, then if you say in your heart (and to the Lord) "I give not because I have not.  But if I had, I would give." Then the Lord knows the thoughts and intents of your heart and will bless you accordingly.

I also believe that many poor people can get by on less than they think.  But because they aren't using their imagination enough, or they aren't willing to sacrifice, they are missing out on some blessings they otherwise would have.

**********

Bishops have to tread a fine line because many people who want guidance on what "income" actually means in their situation are actually asking the Bishop to make the decision for them.  But they really shouldn't.  They are to give guidance and a second opinion, etc.  But they do NOT make the decision of what constitutes "income" and therefore "an honest tithe."

It really is between you and the Lord.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

4) (much less common lately) They promote the idea that the more generous you are with your interpretation of tithing, the more blessings you will receive.

On this last point, I've heard some people give a knee jerk objection saying that rich people will be more blessed than poor people.

Those who say that do not understand the meaning of the word "generous".  Generous is not equivalent to dollars, as if more generous required more dollars.  That is a misunderstanding.  As you indicated, generous is a state of mind.  What is generous for one could be trivial to another.  Using percentages would be more accurate, but you cannot compare one person's percentages to another's and call the larger "more generous", because the numbers alone aren't what determines "generous".

The dictionary describes it as giving more than is expected, usual, or necessary.  I think this is actually a fairly good definition.  Maybe in some person's mind, paying tithing on birthday money is not expected, but they happily tithe it anyway.  That's being generous.  In another person's mind, maybe tithing birthday money is expected, so they happily pay it.  This is not generous, it's doing what's expected.

A single penny can be generous.  A million dollars can be stingy.  (And vice versa.)

Edited by zil
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  • 2 months later...

Some members have stated that...

Members (including us) have no authority or keys to tell you about tithing.  This is between you, the Lord, and your bishop.

Keep in mind that cash is not an absolute, either.  10% can be provided in other means if money is not available.  I have been in that spot before, and in some Christian churches they actually want me to sell the products instead of give it to the church.  Long story for another time on that one.  Another, if I have 10% in time, they felt I could get a job and pay them cash for tithing instead.  Hmmm.  This thing about money.


It is actually against the FLDS church in Utah, and it deals with various facets of this.  They were taking food stamps and other benefits, for members to be in full fellowship they had to turn these over to the church and the church redistributed it as they felt they wanted to.


I looked at joining the FLDS years ago, and the groups I looked at joining said it was mandatory that I sign ALL of my income over to them.  One “preferred it”, but did not say that I must, and a couple more said not just income but everything I own- cars, real estate, tools, stuff like that.


Correction- you and the Lord.  No one, even the bishop, has no business asking how much you have coming in.  There are exceptions, of course, but they are few.

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/24/2018 at 11:32 AM, zil said:

First of all, forget the above.  Stop comparing yourself to others.  Stop worrying about whether / how others are sinning.  This can only harm you and never help.  Their choices are theirs and they will answer for them.  Your choices are yours and you will answer for them.  So just let it go.  You cannot change it, so don't let it change you.

Choose to be humble rather than being ashamed.

Members (including us) have no authority or keys to tell you about tithing.  This is between you, the Lord, and your bishop.

This sounds like a much larger problem than just whether you (one person) pay tithing.  It sounds like this is a ward or stake problem.  If that's the case, you should let go of your feelings of being "singled out" as it's probable every person who isn't paying a full tithe is feeling the same way.  Either way, that feeling is not helping you.

NOTE: in everything I write hereafter, I'm not saying you should or should not pay your tithing.  I'm saying you should work to understand the law, reject the negative feelings you're having now, and increase your faith (and trust in and love for the Lord).  Do this and eventually the Lord will help you to the right conclusion.  If your best does not include paying tithing right now, that's between you and the Lord, but do your best, whatever it is, and be honest with yourself and the Lord (don't lull yourself into a false sense of complacency).  So...

Tithing is between you, the Lord, and your bishop.  That said, I would recommend you work on changing yourself (because that's all you have power to change).  Try to let go of hard feelings towards others who appear to be better off.  Choose to feel humble and grateful rather than ashamed.  Study the law of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, the law of the fast, and the Sabbath (I feel like these are all related in that they promise blessings when we choose to give up a portion of what the Lord has given us).  As you study, pray for guidance.

At the end of the day, your question is one of faith - do I trust that the Lord will take care of me when paying my tithing will leave me without the ability to pay for basic necessities myself?  You've already done the math and done your best to maximize what you can get from your income - that's good.  Now let go of the math (it can't help you further) and believe at least in the possibility that the Lord can do what you cannot.  This isn't necessarily something you can come to believe instantly.  You may have to work on it for a long time, but I believe you will be blessed in greater abundance if you let go of your fear and embrace the infinite possibilities available to the Lord.  That doesn't mean you have to pay tithing this instant and spend the rest of the month fretting over your lack of money - it means work to change your pattern of thinking and feeling, so that you can both change your behavior and receive additional blessings.

You might also study the scriptures looking explicitly for the pattern sometimes called "The Nephite Promise" - which is, "obey and prosper" - but it's always in that order - we must obey first, and the Lord prospers us second.  I see this pattern most easily in the Book of Mormon and Old Testament, but it's there in all the volumes of scripture.

Finally, in my experience, when I wanted something changed, but didn't feel I could change it myself, I found that if I included a request for the change in every prayer, and then got up and did the best I could to obey, the change was eventually brought about.  I think this pattern of doing our best to obey, and relying on the Lord for everything else, brings improvement (slowly, perhaps, but it comes).

I was making good money and felt after tithing I should help others. I found myself totally disabled in bankruptcy. The judge saw to it i had to borrow money from family just to survive. No gain possible. Not allowed any other credit.  Do you illegally borrow money for tithing. I have food storage so nothing the bishop does helps,they can not help needy more than they collect. If you. Feel you owe little tithe no one can argue that.      When the rich company has his company pay all his bill from cars to insurance, vacation and only tithe after all the bills are paid it's between you and the Father. Leaders may be prejudice but wrong,maybe he is doing it. I f every dime is spent by a judge there is nothing to pay. If you pay health insurance you pay tithing on the money. If the company gives a basket of benefits and you owe nothing ....I don't think so. I paid an honest tithing 35 year now I have nothing to pay with. What would Jesus say. I am try to physically stay alive with illness and stress from peer pressure. Things or not as confidential as Bishops visit with their wife and word gets out.  I try to give time to the needy.That is all I have. Leaders feet the need to run your life, but they can take a cruise the company pays for. Wifyis I'll because she's got an illness but has to care for her elderly mother 24/7 and her doctor says she may die before her mother. Everyone is ready to judge.. I am seeing 4 specialist to stay alive. I don't look that sick¿???????????¿??????????????¿

 

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5 hours ago, john4truth said:

I was making good money and felt after tithing I should help others. I found myself totally disabled in bankruptcy. The judge saw to it i had to borrow money from family just to survive. No gain possible. Not allowed any other credit.  Do you illegally borrow money for tithing. I have food storage so nothing the bishop does helps,they can not help needy more than they collect. If you. Feel you owe little tithe no one can argue that.      When the rich company has his company pay all his bill from cars to insurance, vacation and only tithe after all the bills are paid it's between you and the Father. Leaders may be prejudice but wrong,maybe he is doing it. I f every dime is spent by a judge there is nothing to pay. If you pay health insurance you pay tithing on the money. If the company gives a basket of benefits and you owe nothing ....I don't think so. I paid an honest tithing 35 year now I have nothing to pay with. What would Jesus say. I am try to physically stay alive with illness and stress from peer pressure. Things or not as confidential as Bishops visit with their wife and word gets out.  I try to give time to the needy.That is all I have. Leaders feet the need to run your life, but they can take a cruise the company pays for. Wifyis I'll because she's got an illness but has to care for her elderly mother 24/7 and her doctor says she may die before her mother. Everyone is ready to judge.. I am seeing 4 specialist to stay alive. I don't look that sick¿???????????¿??????????????¿

I'm not sure why this was in reply to my old post.  I'm not seeing anything conflicting or a natural continuation between the two...  Regardless, I'm sorry you and your wife are having to live under such a heavy burden.  I pray you will find strength, peace, and blessings in Christ.

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On 1/29/2018 at 9:03 PM, Blossom76 said:

I am new to this and I'm not yet a baptised member BUT from my understanding tithing is to be paid on 'what you earn'. If these are government benefits then you shouldn't have to tithe on them.  Student loans are not income either, its a loan.  In fact from what I can work out the only money coming into your marriage that should be tithed on is the income from your wife's part time job.  I don't know what that income is (none of mine, your bishops or anyone else business) but that's all you should be thinking of paying tithes on.  So if you are paying $29 in tithing already and your wife's pay from her part time job is less than $290, then you are ahead on your tithing and you're owed one very big apology for the way you have been treated.

I also don't think its right that you feel like you have to tell anyone how much your money you have, its not the bishops business.  My understanding is you are asked in an interview 'are you paying a honest tithe' or something to that effect, there is no need to tell anyone how much money you have, and I"m pretty sure you don't have to produce your tax return to prove your income, its between you and the lord.  

You can also set up an account and pay tithing online too, this might be a good idea in your situation.

I do find the way you are being treated really disturbing, I think you should be welcomed, especially if you are new members.  I'd be lodging a complaint to the stake president and if that didn't get any results, I'd go over his head too.

I'm so sorry you have been made to feel like this. Your health is important and so are you.

Loans should not be tithed period grants are. Bishop should  not question you. Everyone does something questionable. There job matches savings, company car, company credit card. Company buys health,or life insurance.  Company gives gifts they get a nice birthday gift. On all of those things you could argue a tithe is owed, even a free lunch. Bottom line is between you and God not the Bishop. Be respectful and honest but do not push it. Let him be wrong if needed some need the last word

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