Fasting kidney problem


xpluto
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 I am a new member and I Had a question about fasting.

I am 29 year old boy and also I am healthy but I had many kidney stones in past. My doctor told me to drink at least several glasses of water each day.

I really want to fast but I am afraid it can cause problems for me. Do you think is it possible that I fast without eating but I drink at least a half glass of water in middle of my fasting ?

I am sure my doctor does not know the answer, becuase he is not familiar with church.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, xpluto said:

Hello,

 I am a new member and I Had a question about fasting.

I am 29 year old boy and also I am healthy but I had many kidney stones in past. My doctor told me to drink at least several glasses of water each day.

I really want to fast but I am afraid it can cause problems for me. Do you think is it possible that I fast without eating but I drink at least a half glass of water in middle of my fasting ?

I am sure my doctor does not know the answer, becuase he is not familiar with church.

 

That's fine - just fast as to food and follow your doctor's instructions about drinking water. 

When someone has a legitimate health concern, it is OK to modify fasting.  A lot of diabetics, for example, have to modify their fasting to take into account their health issues.

Edited by DoctorLemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

That's fine - just fast as to food and follow your doctor's instructions about drinking water. 

When someone has a legitimate health concern, it is OK to modify fasting.  A lot of diabetics, for example, have to modify their fasting to take into account their health issues.

True. Some diabetics fast by eating ‘boring’ food.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

True. Some diabetics fast by eating ‘boring’ food.

I've heard this called a "Daniel Fast" before--taken after Daniel and his three companions asking that they be allowed to eat a simple diet of fruits and vegetables, rather than the rich food of Babylon's palace.

BTW, I've always thought that New Testament fasting was water-only, whereas the OT fasts were "dry" (and never more than 25 hours).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Wait, fasting has nothing to do with water, does it?   My understanding of fasting is no food intake.  Drink all the water you want.  

We do no food or drink for 24 hours.

The kids started with just one meal when they were 12 (skip breakfast) and they extended it to 24 hours when they were ready.  I didn't tell them when to extend, so I have a 14-year-old that still just skips breakfast while his older brother fasts the whole 24 hours.

My in-laws have health problems so they don't do the regular fast.  They do abstinence instead - basically just abstaining from a specific food staple (e.g. meat).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I went to lds.org and found this: In the Church today, one Sabbath day each month is set aside for the purpose of fasting. Members of the Church go without food and water for two consecutive meals in a 24-hour period and then contribute the money that would have been spent for that food to those in need (see Alma 34:28).

So, it sounds like it's an Old Testament style fast, but for 2-meals, which to my way of thinking might mean breakfast and lunch. So, do most break the fast with an evening meal, or do they actually go a full 24-hours? If the first, then I would imagine most could handle the "dry fast." Health conditions come first, though, I'm sure. In Islam, those who are unable are excused from Ramadan fasting. And, many Evangelicals (we don't often fast at all, to be honest) have taken up the "Daniel Fast," as a way of re-discovering this ancient Judeo-Christian spiritual discipline.

Edited by prisonchaplain
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, xpluto said:

Hello,

 I am a new member and I Had a question about fasting.

I am 29 year old boy and also I am healthy but I had many kidney stones in past. My doctor told me to drink at least several glasses of water each day.

I really want to fast but I am afraid it can cause problems for me. Do you think is it possible that I fast without eating but I drink at least a half glass of water in middle of my fasting ?

I am sure my doctor does not know the answer, becuase he is not familiar with church.

 

Yes.  Health should come first.  In concerns about health, take care of one's health, but remember to try to keep the spirit of fasting, even if one is unable to fast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

So I went to lds.org and found this: In the Church today, one Sabbath day each month is set aside for the purpose of fasting. Members of the Church go without food and water for two consecutive meals in a 24-hour period and then contribute the money that would have been spent for that food to those in need (see Alma 34:28).

So, it sounds like it's an Old Testament style fast, but for 2-meals, which to my way of thinking might mean breakfast and lunch. So, do most break the fast with an evening meal, or do they actually go a full 24-hours? If the first, then I would imagine most could handle the "dry fast." Health conditions come first, though, I'm sure. In Islam, those who are unable are excused from Ramadan fasting. And, many Evangelicals (we don't often fast at all, to be honest) have taken up the "Daniel Fast," as a way of re-discovering this ancient Judeo-Christian spiritual discipline.

(For a typical person) In theory it's 24 hours, going from eating dinner Saturday until eating dinner Sunday.  Admittedly in practice, dinner does frequently come a bit earlier those Sundays.  

For health needs: health comes first.  Like when I was pregnant I would get really sick fasting, so there was not meal skipping.  I would still spend the time focusing more on the Lord in prayer (which is part of fasting).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

(For a typical person) In theory it's 24 hours, going from eating dinner Saturday until eating dinner Sunday.  Admittedly in practice, dinner does frequently come a bit earlier those Sundays.  

We do early dinner Saturdays... so we have dinner at 5 on Saturday, then open the fast with a prayer after dinner, then we have dinner at 5:30 on Sunday.  Now that Church is at 1-4, it's easier to make it to 5:30.  But when Church is 9-12, 5:30 is a looooooooooooooong time away.

Edited by anatess2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Wait, fasting has nothing to do with water, does it?   My understanding of fasting is no food intake.  Drink all the water you want.  

Around here, if you go without water for a day in the summer, you'll regret it.  Last bishop that I recall mentioning it basically said if you need water, drink water.  He was also diabetic and under doctor's orders not to fast.  He'd still try sometimes, and more than once we'd have to make him eat a Pop Tart or something similar because we didn't want people thinking he was drunk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, xpluto said:

Hello,

 I am a new member and I Had a question about fasting.

I am 29 year old boy and also I am healthy but I had many kidney stones in past. My doctor told me to drink at least several glasses of water each day.

I really want to fast but I am afraid it can cause problems for me. Do you think is it possible that I fast without eating but I drink at least a half glass of water in middle of my fasting ?

I am sure my doctor does not know the answer, becuase he is not familiar with church.

 

Your doctor failed you...kidney stones and their creation are generally not exacerbated in any healthy person by fasting.  Their presence is typically indicative of mineral imbalances, nearly always magnesium.  Your doctor failed you because kidney stones are of themselves issue enough but failure to address the cause ensures that you will experience further declines in health from the effects of magnesium deficiency which is involved in over 400 other functions in the body. One of the most common symptoms that is readily discerned is the problem of not being able to swallow properly where food, particularly meat lodges in the throat.

Quote

 

Magnesium has also been shown to inhibit crystal formation thus reducing the risk for forming kidney stones.6,7 When 24-hour kidney stone risk profiles are performed, magnesium levels are a key indicator as to the potential stability of the urinary environment. While magnesium is available in food, dietary recommendations often conflict because foods that are good sources of magnesium often are high in less desirable constituents, such as oxalate. 

Thus, the most direct way of increasing urinary magnesium levels is by supplement. Magnesium oxide is frequently recommended at doses of approximately 400 mg per day.

The literature also supports the use of vitamin B6 to help reduce urinary oxalate levels.6,7 While quoted to be most helpful in those patients with hereditary oxalate abnormalities, the benefit can also occur in those with more generalized hyperoxaluria. (https://www.renalandurologynews.com/commentary/kidney-stone-prevention-fact-versus-fiction/article/217239/ )

 

This link will also provide some information but it fails as most do in teaching proper co-nutrient considerations:

http://www.lifeextension.com/Protocols/Kidney-Urinary/Kidney-Stones/Page-10

A second issue is the buildup of calcium in various forms in the system.  The article above encourages jumping through the hoops of regulating calcium intake when the issue is again not adequately addressed in this fashion.  Vitamin K is the regulator of calcium distribution in the system and assists in maintaining the calcium in a solution form in the system which facilitates it's proper utilization.  In the absence of K calcium just cannot function properly in the body.  Calcium is also greatly impacted by Vitamin D resources which play a major role in it's proper utilization.  The fact that you are having issues with kidney stones at such a young age is indicative of further issues with calcium most likely manifesting in the form of hardened arteries and calcification of tissues.  Because magnesium is a co-nutrient to calcium it will mitigate many of the calcium issues.  We generally get plenty of calcium in our high diary diets but fail to get the quantities of magnesium that we require to balance the calcium intake.  Please consider this link:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129185044.htm

Once again though these articles highlight problems without solutions but referencing my earlier observations about vitamin k please review this link:

http://www.rejuvenation-science.com/research-news/vitamin-k/n-vitamin-k2-artery

The point is you have been given a wonderful alert that your health future needs attention.  No doctor will tell you these things, in fact most do not even know this material. They are primarily trained any more to simply wait until you deteriorate to some threshold of failure and then they are going to start with the prescriptions. Your health will continue to get worse because they still are not addressing the problems.  Bottom line you need to research magnesium, vitamin k, calcium, and vitamins A, D and E for their synergistic means of solving your issues.    Properly addressed you never need to have another kidney stone and can greatly reduce some much more severe life altering / reducing events.

Edited by brlenox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Grunt said:

Wait, fasting has nothing to do with water, does it?   My understanding of fasting is no food intake.  Drink all the water you want.  

@prisonchaplain has provided excellent insight as to the requirements of a fast by LDS standards from the standpoint of the food water intake issues.  In addition is the recommendations found in Isaiah 58 which are just as significant to ensuring the success of a fast:

Quote

Isaiah 58:7

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

The promise is then that if we do the physical part correct of fasting from food and water and we seek out those in need then comes this promise:
 

Quote

Isaiah 58:8

8 ¶ Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward. 

9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:

11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

As far as sustaining scientific research it has been discovered that a 24 hour fast increases Human Growth Hormone (HGH) production in men by up to 2000% and women by up to 1300% hence one aspect of how it promotes a health increase.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110403090259.htm

Edited by brlenox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

So I went to lds.org and found this: In the Church today, one Sabbath day each month is set aside for the purpose of fasting. Members of the Church go without food and water for two consecutive meals in a 24-hour period and then contribute the money that would have been spent for that food to those in need (see Alma 34:28).

So, it sounds like it's an Old Testament style fast, but for 2-meals, which to my way of thinking might mean breakfast and lunch. So, do most break the fast with an evening meal, or do they actually go a full 24-hours? If the first, then I would imagine most could handle the "dry fast." Health conditions come first, though, I'm sure. In Islam, those who are unable are excused from Ramadan fasting. And, many Evangelicals (we don't often fast at all, to be honest) have taken up the "Daniel Fast," as a way of re-discovering this ancient Judeo-Christian spiritual discipline.

The essence is that one eats a final meal and then skips the next two meals until it is time to partake of the very same meal that one last ate the day before.  So if I eat dinner, then I will skip breakfast and lunch and when I come back to dinner I can break my fast.  This makes it essentially a 24 hour period. However, while I recommend reaching a 24 hour fast sometimes I have noted that people become pharisaical on the letter of the law as there are times when ones personal fast may interfere with a family get together or such that may have an early dinner of a hour or so which I feel may be engaged in without guilt.  Of course always finding an excuse to end a fast early is also an issue.  The first issue places too much emphasis on a requisite of our works being perfect or we will not be blessed which is incorrect, and the second places not enough emphasis on the fact that God does have expectations of obedience.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

Wow.  I’ll have to ponder this.  However, where does it say “health comes first”.  Isn’t dehydration in general unhealthy?

We do have to use our brains about our health in this matter.  Dehydration can be deadly.  I almost died of thirst once without realizing it.

I'm in Texas where it gets pretty hot during the summer months.  So I will tend to drink a modest amount of water during the hottest days even when fasting. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, brlenox said:

Your doctor failed you...

@xpluto,

I don't know if brlenox is a doctor or not.  He seems to have good information which may also be true or not, taken in or out of context for your particular circumstances. 

But if your doctor is telling you to do something, you need to talk to him about changing anything first.  If you still don't trust your doctor, get another professional opinion. Don't take chances on your health from a random stranger on the internet.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

@xpluto,

I don't know if brlenox is a doctor or not.  He seems to have good information which may also be true or not, taken in or out of context for your particular circumstances. 

But if your doctor is telling you to do something, you need to talk to him about changing anything first.  If you still don't trust your doctor, get another professional opinion. Don't take chances on your health from a random stranger on the internet.

I don't know if @Carborendumknows anything or not but are you not yet another random stranger on the internet giving advice on health issues?   However, I fail to understand why you and your pals follow me around this forum on nothing more than your ill informed lack of knowledge on yet another subject of which I am highly knowledgeable. I provide good starting points for those who wish to consider upon anything I might say...not opinions but sound information well researched.  Let these people use their own intellect and please stopping dogging me on this forum.  Your opinions up against an obvious knowledge should count for naught but that is seldom the case now isn't it. 

I can't figure out why it is that you are so uncomfortable with people who actually know something and have the capacity to instruct.  Did you qualify any other of the uninformed opinions on this thread? Nope, you went after the only post that evinced a sound understanding (other than @prisonchaplain who provided sound and precise information) and started bloviating away.

I do not see the counsel of "Bottom line you need to research magnesium, vitamin k, calcium, and vitamins A, D and E for their synergistic means of solving your issues." as warranting your dire warning.  It is prudent to do your own research and unless you think this person incapable of researching and coming to their own conclusions then your commentary was unnecessary and seems partial to condemning the poster (myself) as opposed to the materiel I posted.  

If people were wise it is the opinions of the unlearned that should be cause for concern.

Edited by brlenox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

@xpluto,

I don't know if brlenox is a doctor or not.  He seems to have good information which may also be true or not, taken in or out of context for your particular circumstances. 

But if your doctor is telling you to do something, you need to talk to him about changing anything first.  If you still don't trust your doctor, get another professional opinion. Don't take chances on your health from a random stranger on the internet.

Yes, by all means, follow your doctors counsel and keep drinking water. We don't want you to change from that in the least.

Edited by brlenox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We do have to use our brains about our health in this matter.  Dehydration can be deadly.  I almost died of thirst once without realizing it.

I'm in Texas where it gets pretty hot during the summer months.  So I will tend to drink a modest amount of water during the hottest days even when fasting. 

I suppose I need to research this more to see if fasting and fast offerings are something we're TOLD to do (I believe we were asked to covenant these in the baptism interview?) or whether it's a "suggestion".  If it's the former, I was unaware that "our brains" could override compulsions from God.  If it's the latter, then I should see what else is merely cultural or a suggestion that I previously believed to be a commandment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I suppose I need to research this more to see if fasting and fast offerings are something we're TOLD to do (I believe we were asked to covenant these in the baptism interview?) or whether it's a "suggestion".  If it's the former, I was unaware that "our brains" could override compulsions from God.  If it's the latter, then I should see what else is merely cultural or a suggestion that I previously believed to be a commandment.

I think it's good that you point this out.  Lifelong / longtime Mormons all (to the best of my knowledge) agree on how to handle fasting (which is basically, as you are able, given your faith and physical condition / circumstances).  I would be interested in what you learn from your study.  I don't believe the scriptures define the duration of a fast.  I don't think they're explicit about whether water is included.  (I could be wrong on both of those.)  But Church manuals are quite explicit about it being food and water for two meals (mostly interpreted as from the end of Saturday dinner to the start of Sunday dinner - where dinner is the third meal of the day).  I have a vague recollection that this was formalized, in part, after the Church was established here in Utah and for the purpose of helping those in need (through fast offerings).  But I could be wrong about that too.

One factoid which would explain why we're not as extreme about this as we are about, for example, tithing1, is that temple recommend interviews don't ask about fasting (no interview I know of does).  Fasting is left entirely to the individual.

1We're so extreme2 about tithing that we tell a person who has insufficient to meet their own needs that it's better to pay tithing and receive welfare assistance from the Church than to not pay tithing and do without the welfare assistance.  Tithing is also asked about in temple recommend interviews.

But it's equally interesting to note that the very scripture most cited in regards to tithing uses the phrase "tithes and offerings" - which phrase in the modern Church is most commonly understood to mean tithing and fast offerings - though the verses in question never distinguish what "offerings" these may be - presumably any offering made under the law of Moses.  (But the commandment / challenge in these verses only mentions tithes, so maybe that's significant.)

2(Note, lest anyone think my use of "extreme" indicates negativity or disagreement on my part - don't!  I believe this is indeed the correct way to handle tithing.  I believe in being generous in how you calculate tithing.  I believe that your attitude and behavior around tithes and offerings are key factors in your improvement (or not) during mortality.  I believe anyone who understands these things and refuses to pay them is denying themselves blessings they would otherwise have.)

Anywho, it's an interesting question you've raised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, brlenox said:

I don't know if @Carborendumknows anything or not but are you not yet another random stranger on the internet giving advice on health issues?  

I think you're overreacting a bit.  I was merely posting the standard disclaimer that any website such as this would and SHOULD post regarding medical issues:  Seek the advice of a competent professional.  This is doubly so when someone says effectively "Don't do what your doctor told you to do."

If you're going to play the hypocrisy card, make sure you're not the pot.  -- Too late.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I suppose I need to research this more to see if fasting and fast offerings are something we're TOLD to do (I believe we were asked to covenant these in the baptism interview?) or whether it's a "suggestion".  If it's the former, I was unaware that "our brains" could override compulsions from God.  If it's the latter, then I should see what else is merely cultural or a suggestion that I previously believed to be a commandment.

Fasting each first Sunday is considered "A Practice."  This practice seems to have benefits both physical and spiritual.  Personally, I've never seen this as "A Commandment."

As such, it is more subject to the standard of "reasonableness" than other things that we know to be commandments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share