Forgiveness and degrees of glory


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2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Ahh so in spite of having me explain the pattern multiple times in multiple threads you never once express any indication that the pattern was wrong (or that I was wrong in my understanding of the pattern)

Only now when you realize how it blows your personal hobby horse out of the water do you make any attempt whatsoever to address it.  It is a weak sauce attempt to label it as "my philosophy" without any attempt to show why it is wrong or how I misunderstood the scripture quoted.

Well two can play that game.  Your understanding of the Degrees of Glory is "your philosophy" aka the Gospel of Rob where you are filling in the gaps with your opinions and then trying to establish that as truth.

So, tell me then, why does the temple plan of salvation label our erth right now as the telestial kingdom? (This is where the rubber meets the road)

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13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, tell me then, why does the temple plan of salvation label our erth right now as the telestial kingdom? (This is where the rubber meets the road)

Why should I make any attempt to answer your questions when you repeatedly show you are not at all interested in listening to what any one else has to say?

 

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3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

There is both "official doctrine" and "truth" and not all the time those two go hand in hand. As humans we have a tendancy to fill in the gaps of truth with opinions and then establish that paradigm as what we believe to be true.

Intriguing, what then is your understanding of what "official doctrine" is, if it doesn't go hand and hand with truth?

This is what I am understanding when I hear a phrase like this:

1) Official doctrine is doctrine that has been canonized scripture or they are statements (i.e. The Proclamation, The Testimony of Jesus Christ from the Apostles) that are fully accepted and signed by the Apostles and prophets. We can easily accept The Family: A Proclamation to the World as official.

2) As these are directives via inspiration and confirmation from the Spirit of Truth to the the Prophet, and then to counselors, and then to 12 apostles.

3) The Spirit of Truth, or the Spirit, speaks the truth a lies not.

4) Then if official doctrine and truth do not go hand in hand, then the Spirit of Truth somehow lied regarding official doctrine, and thus official doctrine can not -- always -- be seen as truth?

5) God is therefore OK with us being taught "lies" or better said, to believe in "error" the opposite of truth, as he declares official doctrine to his servants on the earth.

This sentence appears to give truth to the following sentence provided, "As humans we have a tendancy to fill in the gaps of truth with opinions and then establish that paradigm as what we believe to be true." Its confusion.

Edited by Anddenex
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55 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, tell me then, why does the temple plan of salvation label our erth right now as the telestial kingdom? (This is where the rubber meets the road)

I believe the answer is simple -- symbolic. We are to recognize our earth represents the telestial kingdom and those who love this earth and the laws of the telestial kingdom will one day become inhabitants of this glory. We are to rise above this earth, receive higher laws -- terrestrial and celestial -- and then to abide by the light which is given line-upon-line.

Light cleaveth unto light, and so forth. Some people cleave unto the telestial kingdom's light and glory, and they only want that.

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3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am listening and answering. "Listening" doesnt equate to conforming or obeying.

Alright then...  then give me a straight forward answer.  Why do you believe the Temple ceremony is true?

I believe it is true because it followed the Pattern Set by God that lets us know what the Church teaches is true.  But you call that "My Own Philosophy on how truth is established."  With the very clear implication that its therefore false.

Until I know what you will accept there is no point in trying to answer you questions.

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Intriguing, what then is your understanding of what "official doctrine" is, if it doesn't go hand and hand with truth?

This is what I am understanding when I hear a phrase like this:

1) Official doctrine is doctrine that has been canonized scripture or they are statements (i.e. The Proclamation, The Testimony of Jesus Christ from the Apostles) that are fully accepted and signed by the Apostles and prophets. We can easily accept The Family: A Proclamation to the World as official.

2) As these are directives via inspiration and confirmation from the Spirit of Truth to the the Prophet, and then to counselors, and then to 12 apostles.

3) The Spirit of Truth, or the Spirit, speaks the truth a lies not.

4) Then if official doctrine and truth do not go hand in hand, then the Spirit of Truth somehow lied regarding official doctrine, and thus official doctrine can not -- always -- be seen as truth?

5) God is therefore OK with us being taught "lies" or better said, to believe in "error" the opposite of truth, as he declares official doctrine to his servants on the earth.

This sentence appears to give truth to the following sentence provided, "As humans we have a tendancy to fill in the gaps of truth with opinions and then establish that paradigm as what we believe to be true." Its confusion.

You have some statements like the proclamation on the family that definitely receive a more top down approach with authority and overseeing. This same treatement doesnt happen with all "official" doctrine as in times past many manuals were written by boards, committees, etc and passed on by one or few apoatles overseeing that department. Correlation of matetials and definitions on gospel topics has differed in the past.

Truth is an interesting principle. Truth is truth regardless of who says it, how its revealed, even if it hadnt been confirmed. Truth is truth. I am oft reminded of the issue of Blacks and the priesthood and the many instances it was taught in the past that ended up being incorrect. At various times in the past we would teach a myriad of reasons they couldnt hold the priesthood. its still unclear exactly but at least the church has acknowledged that there really wasnt a reason why, just the faults of men mostly.

So, we must take so called "truth" carefully as men are prone to error.

 

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17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You have some statements like the proclamation on the family that definitely receive a more top down approach with authority and overseeing. This same treatement doesnt happen with all "official" doctrine as in times past many manuals were written by boards, committees, etc and passed on by one or few apoatles overseeing that department. Correlation of matetials and definitions on gospel topics has differed in the past.

Truth is an interesting principle. Truth is truth regardless of who says it, how its revealed, even if it hadnt been confirmed. Truth is truth. I am oft reminded of the issue of Blacks and the priesthood and the many instances it was taught in the past that ended up being incorrect. At various times in the past we would teach a myriad of reasons they couldnt hold the priesthood. its still unclear exactly but at least the church has acknowledged that there really wasnt a reason why, just the faults of men mostly.

So, we must take so called "truth" carefully as men are prone to error.

 

Thank you. This doesn't clarify the position given regarding "official doctrine" (which is truth), and how "truth" do not go hand in hand. Priesthood is the doctrine.  How the Lord wants to implement his priesthood (as he did with the Levites) is really up to him.

"its still unclear exactly but at least the church has acknowledged that there really wasnt a reason why, just the faults of men mostly."

This is an incorrect statement. They have never declared it as a fault of men. They have disavowed specific statements and made clear these were never "official" doctrines of the Church as early as 1907. Here is the quote in the Church's publication:

Quote

Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, for example, wrote in 1907 that the belief was “quite general” among Mormons that “the Negro race has been cursed for taking a neutral position in that great contest.” Yet this belief, he admitted, “is not the official position of the Church, [and is] merely the opinion of men.” Joseph Fielding Smith to Alfred M. Nelson, Jan. 31, 1907, Church History Library, Salt Lake City.

Yes, men are prone to error, including yourself, and this still doesn't give any evidence regarding "official doctrine" and "truth" being separate as you have provided. It appears you are confusing what is "official" and what is opinion, and opinion and truth do not go hand in hand. That is a more correct statement.

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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I believe the answer is simple -- symbolic. We are to recognize our earth represents the telestial kingdom and those who love this earth and the laws of the telestial kingdom will one day become inhabitants of this glory. We are to rise above this earth, receive higher laws -- terrestrial and celestial -- and then to abide by the light which is given line-upon-line.

Light cleaveth unto light, and so forth. Some people cleave unto the telestial kingdom's light and glory, and they only want that.

So, when Elohim has his messengers go down to Adam in the telestial world we are supposed to interpret that as symbolic?

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15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, when Elohim has his messengers go down to Adam in the telestial world we are supposed to interpret that as symbolic?

Yes. When the Lord called Satan a dragon, are we supposed to take this as symbolic?

EDIT: We are currently in a telestial world (state), that will one day become terrestrial world (state), and will one day become Celestial world (state and kingdom). So we have literal and symbolic meanings provided in our temples. There is a lot of symbolism in our temples. As we have discussed previously, much like our dreams and visions.

Edited by Anddenex
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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Yes. When the Lord called Satan a dragon, are we supposed to take this as symbolic?

EDIT: We are currently in a telestial world (state), that will one day become terrestrial world (state), and will one day become Celestial world (state and kingdom). So we have literal and symbolic meanings provided in our temples. There is a lot of symbolism in our temples. As we have discussed previously, much like our dreams and visions.

Is Elohim symbolic?

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18 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, tell me then, why does the temple plan of salvation label our erth right now as the telestial kingdom? (This is where the rubber meets the road)

It doesn't.  I checked.  You missed a key word.  BTW, please don't repeat he specifics of the Temple Ceremony or the wording thereof in a public forum.

You chose to lookup an anti-Mormon website that publishes the Temple Ceremony and depend on their accuracy.  Well, it wasn't accurate.

Edited by Guest
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16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It doesn't.  I checked.  You missed a key word.  BTW, please don't repeat he specifics of the Temple Ceremony or the wording thereof in a public forum.

You chose to lookup an anti-Mormon website that publishes the Temple Ceremony and depend on their accuracy.  Well, it wasn't accurate.

It does.

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The world room in the temple represents the telestial kingdom or the world in which we now live in. 

The endowment represents an overview of the plan of salvation and the progress we need to make in each kingdom to advance us to return back to our Heavenly Father in the Celestial kingdom.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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43 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The world room in the temple represents the telestial kingdom or the world in which we now live in. 

It represents one OR the other, as is appropriate to the particular question. The two are not identical. We are not now living in the telestial kingdom.

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Just a mod note here:

The moderating staff is extremely sensitive to the prospect of the temple ceremony being debated/picked apart on this forum.

As we all know, the temple ceremonies are heavily symbolic; have many layers of meaning; and are to be understood by revelation.  They certainly were not intended for use as a bludgeon to try to force others into conformity with our preferred doctrinal perspectives; or to darkly hint that modern Church leadership is somehow in error for failing to adopt our own pet interpretations.  

Temple ceremony elements, referred to in a general way, might be edifying in confirming a doctrinal point that has already been supported through other sources.  But if we can’t argue a position without referring to (our interpretation of) the temple ceremony; we probably shouldn’t be arguing it at all.  (And yes, I know I’ve done this myself in the past.  I’m trying to repent; and feel free to call me on it if I cross any lines going forward.) 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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26 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

A prophet of God seems to think so.

Oh so now you think what a prophet of God thinks is important.

Funny how your definition of what can be consider true... appears flex based entirely on what supports what you already think

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Oh so now you think what a prophet of God thinks is important.

Funny how your definition of what can be consider true... appears flex based entirely on what supports what you already think

We all do that. The question to ask yourself is do you believe as this apostle does that this world we now live in is the telestial kingdom?

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14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We all do that. The question to ask yourself is do you believe as this apostle does that this world we now live in is the telestial kingdom?

No we do not all do that....  Some of us understand the pattern that the Lord uses and then we we find ourselves contrary to what has been reveled using that pattern know ourselves to be in error.

As for your question... when you start answering mine I will happily answer yours. But until then there can be no discussion when one side ignores the other.

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7 hours ago, estradling75 said:

No we do not all do that....  Some of us understand the pattern that the Lord uses and then we we find ourselves contrary to what has been reveled using that pattern know ourselves to be in error.

As for your question... when you start answering mine I will happily answer yours. But until then there can be no discussion when one side ignores the other.

Hum...is it this one-

 

On 2/2/2018 at 7:17 PM, estradling75 said:

  Why do you believe the Temple ceremony is true?

I will answer but then I want an answer to the question I asked.

I believe the temple ceremony is most correct. It follows that pattern of line upon line. It is the last line we have received regarding the plan of salvation. 

The endowment represents the plan of salvation and the journey along with covenants we make to enter back into the Fathers presence. It is there where we learn the proper context of kingdoms, laws, ordinances and covenants and how they build one upon the other to achieve perfection. There is only one destination in the plan of salvation. That is the celestial kingdom just as the temple teaches. With that understanding all of Christs teachings fall into order.

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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...is it this one-

 

I will answer but then I want an answer to the question I asked.

I believe the temple ceremony is most correct. It follows that pattern of line upon line. It is the last line we have received regarding the plan of salvation. 

The endowment represents the plan of salvation and the journey along with covenants we make to enter back into the Fathers presence. It is there where we learn the proper context of kingdoms, laws, ordinances and covenants and how they build one upon the other to achieve perfection. There is only one destination in the plan of salvation. That is the celestial kingdom just as the temple teaches. With that understanding all of Christs teachings fall into order.

Wait wait wait... you said the pattern was "My philosophy"   We can not have a discussion if you insult me for believing in the pattern and then turn around and say you believe the pattern.  So I want you to be very clear about your answer. Either say Yes I believe the pattern and I am sorry for insulting you for your belief in it.  Or no I do not believe in the pattern as you described it. this is what I think the pattern really is <Then give detail with supporting scriptural reference>

Until then you have not answered the question you have only thrown a lot of mud around

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