Forgiveness and degrees of glory

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Wait wait wait... you said the pattern was "My philosophy"   We can not have a discussion if you insult me for believing in the pattern and then turn around and say you believe the pattern.  So I want you to be very clear about your answer. Either say Yes I believe the pattern and I am sorry for insulting you for your belief in it.  Or no I do not believe in the pattern as you described it. this is what I think the pattern really is <Then give detail with supporting scriptural reference>

Until then you have not answered the question you have only thrown a lot of mud around

I already answered this issue. I think you are somehow equating church doctrine, or what the church teaches in its official publucations with "truth". They are not the same thing. Thus, it is your own philosophy on how truth is established. According to your philosophy I cannot find truth on my own unless it first comes through the prophet. Yes, its true I cant myself reveal the truth for the church officially but this doesnt mean I cant figure it out in my own mind and understanding.

[Rob Osborn]

On 2/2/2018 at 1:14 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Well, the pattern you are talking about is your own philosophy on how truth is established. There is both "official doctrine" and "truth" and not all the time those two go hand in hand. As humans we have a tendancy to fill in the gaps of truth with opinions and then establish that paradigm as what we believe to be true. Then, later on we get revealed the next line and it doesnt always line up with what we put in place to fill the gaps. The plan of salvation in LDS theology is a perfect example of this process. First came the Book of Mormon which teaches the binary heaven/hell model. As part of the early church founded upon the BoM we didnt have anything else- no endowment, no temple marriage or sealings, not even much as far as doctrines on the work for the dead and vicarious temple work. That early doctrine didnt have any teachings regarding becoming Gods, the true fate of the spirits in hell, if repentance was possible after death, etc. So, we had this early doctrine that though much the same as Protestants. Then as one doctrine after the next was revealed the church had to modify its beliefs and even quash out errors in the doctrine. Temple work for the masses didnt come til much later and when it came more confusion ensued as polygamy was in full effect and you had prophets such as Brigham Young teaching that celestial marriage was polygammy and anyone who didnt enter into polygamy would be damned. Lots of temple rites were alao misconstrued, carried over filled in gaps from masonry. Death signs of cutting the throat and all was part of the endowment. Even a woman on her menstral cycle was not supposed to take part in temple work until she was clean.

The point Im making here is that we tend to fill in gaps of misunderstanding with our own opinions. And so too it is with the plan of salvation. Line upon line we have received. That last line we havent received yet in our hearts and minds even though it has already been revealed. 

You know how often I get told I am wrong for saying this earth we live in is "the telestial kingdom"? Almost all the time. No one believes it. And yet now we have a prophet of the Lord declaring such. Let me quote-

"To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

 

 

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I already answered this issue. I think you are somehow equating church doctrine, or what the church teaches in its official publucations with "truth". They are not the same thing. Thus, it is your own philosophy on how truth is established. According to your philosophy I cannot find truth on my own unless it first comes through the prophet. Yes, its true I cant myself reveal the truth for the church officially but this doesnt mean I cant figure it out in my own mind and understanding.

Wrong wrong wrong and more wrong.

The Lord declared that his teaching and instructions for the Church as an Organization will only come through the channels he has appointed and are known to the Church (aka the Leaders).  The Lord also established the need for Witness and Unity, so that one leader's weakness, misunderstanding, opinion can be countered and eliminated.  The is the standard for Public Revelations and how the church as whole gets corrected, guided and Lead by the Lord.

There is also Personal Revelations, and the Lord will give this to individuals through Study and Prayer.  Personal Revelation is important it is what everyone's testimony of Christ, The Book of Mormon and the Church is based.  However Personal Revelation is just that personal.  My Relevation that the Book of Mormon is true... is worthless to you just like Your Relevation that Joseph Smith is a prophet is worthless to me.  Even if we both have them.

Like the how the Church has checks on Public Revelation, Private Revelation also has checks.  All personal Revelation can not contradict existing revelation.  And all personal revelation is to remain personal.  Any attempt to change a Private Revelation unto a Public Revelation that the church should accept is to be rejected (per the Lord command in the scripture)   This last bit is where you run into problems with me and other forum members.

You can find all kinds of Greater Truth and Light through personal revelation and as long as it remains in your own mind you are fine.  But the moment you set your self up as a light (which you do the moment you say the Church is wrong), your teachings need to be rejected.  Not because they are necessary wrong but because God's house is a house of Order and you are out of order.  And that is how God has commanded us to respond to such.

If you do not like the Lords command feel free to take it up with him.  But I am going to do the best I can to obey the commandments he has so clearly given me.

[CV75]

On February 2, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...when I read section 138 its rather apparent that the spirits in prison must repent, accept the gospel, be baptized, and other ordinances and covenants of the temple in order to be washed clean.

...and if they do not repent, they suffer (D&C 19) and inherit a lesser glory, and are thus washed clean of their debt to Christ. But they are not washed clean of the effects of not repenting and of suffering for their own sins.

[Rob Osborn]

34 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Wrong wrong wrong and more wrong.

The Lord declared that his teaching and instructions for the Church as an Organization will only come through the channels he has appointed and are known to the Church (aka the Leaders).  The Lord also established the need for Witness and Unity, so that one leader's weakness, misunderstanding, opinion can be countered and eliminated.  The is the standard for Public Revelations and how the church as whole gets corrected, guided and Lead by the Lord.

There is also Personal Revelations, and the Lord will give this to individuals through Study and Prayer.  Personal Revelation is important it is what everyone's testimony of Christ, The Book of Mormon and the Church is based.  However Personal Revelation is just that personal.  My Relevation that the Book of Mormon is true... is worthless to you just like Your Relevation that Joseph Smith is a prophet is worthless to me.  Even if we both have them.

Like the how the Church has checks on Public Revelation, Private Revelation also has checks.  All personal Revelation can not contradict existing revelation.  And all personal revelation is to remain personal.  Any attempt to change a Private Revelation unto a Public Revelation that the church should accept is to be rejected (per the Lord command in the scripture)   This last bit is where you run into problems with me and other forum members.

You can find all kinds of Greater Truth and Light through personal revelation and as long as it remains in your own mind you are fine.  But the moment you set your self up as a light (which you do the moment you say the Church is wrong), your teachings need to be rejected.  Not because they are necessary wrong but because God's house is a house of Order and you are out of order.  And that is how God has commanded us to respond to such.

If you do not like the Lords command feel free to take it up with him.  But I am going to do the best I can to obey the commandments he has so clearly given me.

Who is speaking about truth and revelation? I never have said I received revelation on the matter. It is possible to find the truth on a matter without receiving revelation.

I think we are about done discussing this as you refuse to answer my question.

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Who is speaking about truth and revelation? I never have said I received revelation on the matter. It is possible to find the truth on a matter without receiving revelation.

I think we are about done discussing this as you refuse to answer my question.

Because you refused to answer mine repeatedly..

Edited February 4, 2018 by estradling75

[Rob Osborn]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

...and if they do not repent, they suffer (D&C 19) and inherit a lesser glory, and are thus washed clean of their debt to Christ. But they are not washed clean of the effects of not repenting and of suffering for their own sins.

D&C 19 refers to those at final judgement who are still unrepentant. You cant suffer like Christ without a body.

Read section 138 again as it is clear that one must repent and accept the gospel to be saved.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Because you refused to answer mine repeatedly..

Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Because you refused to answer mine repeatedly..

Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.

[estradling75]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.

Really then quote where you described how you know what things the church true including the asked for scriptural references

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Really then quote where you described how you know what things the church true including the asked for scriptural references

I have always maintained my views are my opinions. I can myself make the claim "I know" that our gospel on this matter is flawed. That does not meam I have any revelation on the matter although the sumation of events in my life and studies have led me to find the truth. 

I have referenced the endowment several times of which you refuse to address or acknowledge as binding doctrine. Im still waiting your reply.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

D&C 19 refers to those at final judgement who are still unrepentant. You cant suffer like Christ without a body.

Read section 138 again as it is clear that one must repent and accept the gospel to be saved.

You can always parse things out until they become nonsensical, or worse, to put lying words in another's mouth -- cheap shots! It's just a way to shut down the discussion. What's next, bear testimony and storm off? I don't see anyone here saying that one that one doesn't have to repent to be exalted. But if you read section 138 again, you will see that we can live , and even suffer, in the spirit.  We can't do anything quite like Christ did, but yet we do things like He did.

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You can always parse things out until they become nonsensical, or worse, to put lying words in another's mouth -- cheap shots! It's just a way to shut down the discussion. What's next, bear testimony and storm off? I don't see anyone here saying that one that one doesn't have to repent to be exalted. But if you read section 138 again, you will see that we can live , and even suffer, in the spirit.  We can't do anything quite like Christ did, but yet we do things like He did.

Its not cheap shots. Goodness. Reading section 19 carefully reveals the timing of the final judgement after the millennium and resurrection-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done

[wenglund]

I was so busy dealing with Rob on another thread that I didn't notice, until just a few minutes ago, how much fun a number of people are having with him on this thread.

Good stuff. I am learning a lot.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

I am really interested in the idea that the endowment teaches the fulness of the plan of salvation. Its a little sketchy but it appears that late in Joseph Smiths life he introduced the endowment ceremony in Nauvoo with the accompanying rooms representing the telestial, terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. I am pretty sure this marked a new doctrinal change that was occurring regarding the plan of salvation but due to Josephs death it never progressed enough to be ultimately understood. I do find it interesting that the church fully acknowledges and teaches that the endowment is the plan of salvation. I provided a few quotes and links that pertain. Im curious twofold here as to 1. if we consider the endowment a type of binding doctrine. 2. Why is there differences (such as progression through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms to reach heaven as taught in the temple) to the plan taught inside the temple vs. what we learn at church.

 

"In the second part, you will receive the remainder of your endowment in a group setting along with others who are attending the temple. During this part, the plan of salvation is presented" https://www.lds.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng

 

"Objective

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3).

To help class members understand that the plan of salvation is taught in the temple...Explain that as part of the temple endowment, the plan of salvation is taught." https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-1?lang=eng

“The temple ordinances encompass the whole plan of salvation, as taught from time to time by the leaders of the Church" https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/02/the-holy-temple?lang=eng

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am really interested in the idea that the endowment teaches the fulness of the plan of salvation. Its a little sketchy but it appears that late in Joseph Smiths life he introduced the endowment ceremony in Nauvoo with the accompanying rooms representing the telestial, terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. I am pretty sure this marked a new doctrinal change that was occurring regarding the plan of salvation but due to Josephs death it never progressed enough to be ultimately understood. I do find it interesting that the church fully acknowledges and teaches that the endowment is the plan of salvation. I provided a few quotes and links that pertain. Im curious twofold here as to 1. if we consider the endowment a type of binding doctrine. 2. Why is there differences (such as progression through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms to reach heaven as taught in the temple) to the plan taught inside the temple vs. what we learn at church.

 

"In the second part, you will receive the remainder of your endowment in a group setting along with others who are attending the temple. During this part, the plan of salvation is presented" https://www.lds.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng

 

"Objective

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3).

To help class members understand that the plan of salvation is taught in the temple...Explain that as part of the temple endowment, the plan of salvation is taught." https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-1?lang=eng

“The temple ordinances encompass the whole plan of salvation, as taught from time to time by the leaders of the Church" https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/02/the-holy-temple?lang=eng

 

One suggestion – thought you have indicated you are through with my inferior reasoning abilities – that you become more familiar with the literal differences of things learned at the temple as opposed to what is taught in scripture.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

One suggestion – thought you have indicated you are through with my inferior reasoning abilities – that you become more familiar with the literal differences of things learned at the temple as opposed to what is taught in scripture.

 

The Traveler

What do you mean?

[CV75]

On 2/4/2018 at 10:29 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Its not cheap shots. Goodness. Reading section 19 carefully reveals the timing of the final judgement after the millennium and resurrection-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done

This timing has nothing to do with those remaining unrepentant in the spirit world and paying the penalty for their sins: “…if they would not repent they must suffer even as I … which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit (D&C 19:17, 20),” and which this is the only way that spirits can suffer. The subsequent reward according to their works (D&C 138:59) reflects their having passed on the Lord’s physical and spiritual suffering in their behalf. Nor does this timing address the difference between being washed clean in the sense of the payment of a debt (D&C 138:59), which entails neither faith, repentance nor forgiveness (D&C 58:42), and of properly preparing to meet the Lord, which does entail faith, repentance and forgiveness (D&C 110:5; Ether 12:37).

Even if you are proposing that the unrepentant suffer physically in the resurrected flesh, bleeding from every pore (are you proposing there is blood in the resurrected body?), by doing so their spirits remain faithless and unrepentant, and so their reward accords with their faithless and unrepentant works and deeds; they are not washed clean in the same sense that faith and repentance allow them to be. Even if the temple work is done for them, it is no more effectual for their exalttaion than their treatment of the Lord's atonement for their sins.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

This timing has nothing to do with those remaining unrepentant in the spirit world and paying the penalty for their sins: “…if they would not repent they must suffer even as I … which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit (D&C 19:17, 20),” and which this is the only way that spirits can suffer. The subsequent reward according to their works (D&C 138:59) reflects their having passed on the Lord’s physical and spiritual suffering in their behalf. Nor does this timing address the difference between being washed clean in the sense of the payment of a debt (D&C 138:59), which entails neither faith, repentance nor forgiveness (D&C 58:42), and of properly preparing to meet the Lord, which does entail faith, repentance and forgiveness (D&C 110:5; Ether 12:37).

Even if you are proposing that the unrepentant suffer physically in the resurrected flesh, bleeding from every pore (are you proposing there is blood in the resurrected body?), by doing so their spirits remain faithless and unrepentant, and so their reward accords with their faithless and unrepentant works and deeds; they are not washed clean in the same sense that faith and repentance allow them to be. Even if the temple work is done for them, it is no more effectual for their exalttaion than their treatment of the Lord's atonement for their sins.

The only ones who will suffer like Christ are those found on the left hand which are the sons of perdition. Everyone else will repent, be forgiven and washed clean through baptism and found on the right hand of God.

D&C 138:58-59  speaks of those who fall under the atonement and through obedience to temple ordinances shall be washed clean.

There is only one way to be washed clean of ones sins and that is through repentance and baptism. Failure to do this and one remains filthy still and if one persists till the very end without repenting tgey are found on the left hand to becone a son of perdition.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

This timing has nothing to do with those remaining unrepentant in the spirit world and paying the penalty for their sins: “…if they would not repent they must suffer even as I … which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit (D&C 19:17, 20),” and which this is the only way that spirits can suffer. The subsequent reward according to their works (D&C 138:59) reflects their having passed on the Lord’s physical and spiritual suffering in their behalf. Nor does this timing address the difference between being washed clean in the sense of the payment of a debt (D&C 138:59), which entails neither faith, repentance nor forgiveness (D&C 58:42), and of properly preparing to meet the Lord, which does entail faith, repentance and forgiveness (D&C 110:5; Ether 12:37).

Even if you are proposing that the unrepentant suffer physically in the resurrected flesh, bleeding from every pore (are you proposing there is blood in the resurrected body?), by doing so their spirits remain faithless and unrepentant, and so their reward accords with their faithless and unrepentant works and deeds; they are not washed clean in the same sense that faith and repentance allow them to be. Even if the temple work is done for them, it is no more effectual for their exalttaion than their treatment of the Lord's atonement for their sins.

The only ones who will suffer like Christ are those found on the left hand which are the sons of perdition. Everyone else will repent, be forgiven and washed clean through baptism and found on the right hand of God.

D&C 138:58-59  speaks of those who fall under the atonement and through obedience to temple ordinances shall be washed clean.

There is only one way to be washed clean of ones sins and that is through repentance and baptism. Failure to do this and one remains filthy still and if one persists till the very end without repenting tgey are found on the left hand to become a son of perdition.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The only ones who will suffer like Christ are those found on the left hand which are the sons of perdition. Everyone else will repent, be forgiven and washed clean through baptism and found on the right hand of God.

D&C 138:58-59  speaks of those who fall under the atonement and through obedience to temple ordinances shall be washed clean.

There is only one way to be washed clean of ones sins and that is through repentance and baptism. Failure to do this and one remains filthy still and if one persists till the very end without repenting tgey are found on the left hand to becone a son of perdition.

Nice job of avoiding my question and sidestepping the whole issue! TWICE!

Would you mind directing me to a website that covers all the points you are trying to make? You can't be the only one who shares your particular views on what the LDS Church teaches about the afterlife, and perhaps the website might explain it in a way that makes more sense and doesn't waste my time by avoiding questions and sidestepping the issues. Thank you.

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The only ones who will suffer like Christ are those found on the left hand which are the sons of perdition. Everyone else will repent, be forgiven and washed clean through baptism and found on the right hand of God.

D&C 138:58-59  speaks of those who fall under the atonement and through obedience to temple ordinances shall be washed clean.

There is only one way to be washed clean of ones sins and that is through repentance and baptism. Failure to do this and one remains filthy still and if one persists till the very end without repenting tgey are found on the left hand to become a son of perdition.

Nice job of avoiding my question and sidestepping the whole issue! TWICE!

Would you mind directing me to a website that covers all the points you are trying to make? You can't be the only one who shares your particular views on what the LDS Church teaches about the afterlife, and perhaps the website might explain it in a way that makes more sense and doesn't waste my time by avoiding questions and sidestepping the issues. Thank you.

Edited February 9, 2018 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Nice job of avoiding my question and sidestepping the whole issue! TWICE!

Would you mind directing me to a website that covers all the points you are trying to make? You can't be the only one who shares your particular views on what the LDS Church teaches about the afterlife, and perhaps the website might explain it in a way that makes more sense and doesn't waste my time by avoiding questions and sidestepping the issues. Thank you.

Nice job of avoiding my question and sidestepping the whole issue! TWICE!

Would you mind directing me to a website that covers all the points you are trying to make? You can't be the only one who shares your particular views on what the LDS Church teaches about the afterlife, and perhaps the website might explain it in a way that makes more sense and doesn't waste my time by avoiding questions and sidestepping the issues. Thank you.

Im not sure what I am sidestepping. My reply was done so to explain the whole process. Its what the scriptures teach. If you want I could direct you here https://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng

If there is a particular question shoot it at me, Im kinda slow at not picking out direct questions sometimes I guess.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not sure what I am sidestepping. My reply was done so to explain the whole process. Its what the scriptures teach. If you want I could direct you here https://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng

If there is a particular question shoot it at me, Im kinda slow at not picking out direct questions sometimes I guess.

LAST CHANCE: I asked for a link to a website that "shares your particular views on what the LDS Church teaches about the afterlife." 

I'll have no more of your ignoring or "miscomprehending" questions, or your sidestepping and redirecting the discussion to unrelated issues, young man!  

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not sure what I am sidestepping. My reply was done so to explain the whole process. Its what the scriptures teach. If you want I could direct you here https://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng

If there is a particular question shoot it at me, Im kinda slow at not picking out direct questions sometimes I guess.

 

33 minutes ago, CV75 said:

LAST CHANCE: I asked for a link to a website that "shares your particular views on what the LDS Church teaches about the afterlife." 

I'll have no more of your ignoring or "miscomprehending" questions, or your sidestepping and redirecting the discussion to unrelated issues, young man!  

@Rob Osborn, now that @CV75 got done complimenting you on your age, let me just try to bridge the disconnect.  What @CV75 is trying to ask for is not a link to the scriptures that support your views.  Rather, he is asking for a link to a talk or a discussion or anything else that supports YOUR INTERPRETATION of the scriptures.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

LAST CHANCE: I asked for a link to a website that "shares your particular views on what the LDS Church teaches about the afterlife." 

I'll have no more of your ignoring or "miscomprehending" questions, or your sidestepping and redirecting the discussion to unrelated issues, young man!  

Hum...that may be a little difficult to be honest. Im not entirely sure why but most dont understand the scriptures. Hum...I think it best to start with an analysis of scripture as the scriptures are actually a great source for what we are discussing. Would you be willing to walk with me through this using the scriptures as the base? We could start with say section 19 or 29 and then from there jump to passages in the Book of Mormon, PoGP, and others in the D&C and NT. Its actually a somewhat extended process (we wont even really get into the three degrees of glory, just the baseline heaven or hell doctrine) as many scriptures tie in and support these teachings through all ages.