Forgiveness and degrees of glory

[brlenox]

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

These are great quotes, particularly I am fond of these two:

 

In these quotes it is apparent that Celestial glory requires baptism (John 3: 5 is sufficient also); however, I don't see anything negating baptism being a requirement also to receive a kingdom of glory. Although not exaltation, telestial and terrestrial are glories of salvation or of being saved. Everyone except the sons of perdition are saved to a kingdom of glory.

We perform baptisms for people who do not accept the gospel in this life and in the next (for those who never had the opportunity to accept or reject in this life). Yet all the sons and daughters of God will be baptized through mortality or by proxy. It wouldn't shock me if baptism is in part a reason they can obtain a kingdom of glory (what they have become), all because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, his mercy, grace, and love.

Do you have any quotes that negate this idea?

This one is one from above which may not be as specific as you like.  If it is then we can let it go.  If not I do have about 30 other baptism and ordinance quotes that I can go through to look for something more definitive.

Quote

 

Joseph Fielding Smith

Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. All the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and any person who is faithful to the covenant of baptism will be entitled to enter there, but no person can receive an exaltation in the celestial kingdom without the ordinances of the temple. The endowments are for advancement in that kingdom, and the sealings for our perfection, provided we keep our covenants and obligations.

People baptized, and who are not endowed in the temple of the Lord, may enter the celestial kingdom. But that does not mean that a baptized person is going to get the exaltation in that kingdom. He is not going to pass on to the fulness just by being baptized. He will not pass on to the fulness even after he has been baptized and received an endowment in the temple. He has also to receive the other ordinances so that he can become through his faithfulness and obedience a son of God. . . .

The first principles of the gospel are principles that save. By obedience to them we enter the celestial kingdom of God. Then, when we get into that kingdom, if we have received the other covenants, have been true and faithful to other obligations, we will advance until we shall become like God -- his sons, his daughters, receiving a fulness of his kingdom. That is the promise. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:45-46)

 

Now following is an excerpt from Bruce R. McConkies well known talk the Seven Deadly Heresy's, it does not speak exactly to your question however, it captures the principle which does wholly play to the issue. 

Quote

 

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, “You know the Church is true; why won’t you be baptized?” He replied, “Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn’t worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway.”

He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world.

In the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ, these words are found:

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7–9]

There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.

 

 

[brlenox]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find this quote both interesting and yet puzzling-

"(Joseph Fielding Smith)

This other class, which will also have right to the first resurrection, are those who are not members of the Church of the Firstborn, but who have led honorable lives, although they refused to accept the fulness of the gospel.

Also in this class will be numbered those who died without law and hence are not under condemnation for a violation of the commandments of the Lord. The promise is made to them of redemption from death in the following words: "And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them." [D. & C. 45:54] These, too, shall partake of the mercies of the Lord and shall receive the reuniting of spirit and body inseparably, thus becoming immortal, but not with the fulness of the glory of God. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.297)"

So, if you were one of those countless souls in one of those heathen nations, who knew no law, the best you can hope for is terrestrial glory?

I find this doctrine puzzling. Our default is to say "Christ is the judge" but in reality havent the prophets already passed judgement on them? Is this statement by the prophet false?

Yes, that is correct , only terrestrial glory.  However, If you think back to who is included in this group, ie. the antediluvians  who were a wicked people then you realize that it was a merciful thing to bring them forth to the earth during a time when their ignorance was a shield to their potential for a much harsher judgment.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, how then are the rest (besides the celestial) cleansed?

Note the specific wording of D&C 138:57-59. “The dead [speaking of “those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead”] who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.” This speaks to the spiritual redemption and not the physical resurrection.

There are two significant qualifiers here: 1. The dead who repent (not all do); 2. They shall receive a reward (there are many degrees) according to their works (of which there are also many degrees). Yes, they pay a penalty just as we all do when we sin, and this penalty entices us to draw upon faith in Christ to repent and we receive forgiveness, are healed, and washed clean through the merits of Christ. They are doing in the spirit world what we have the opportunity to do in this world.

How do we pay a penalty? Two ways: one, suffering a guilty conscience unto repentance and forgiveness through the merits of Christ (a fruit of humility); or two, refusing the fulness of glory that is offered to us through the merits of Christ (a fruit of pride). So to answer your question, "the rest (besides the celestial)" pay the penalty in the second manner, and so their debt is paid (they are washed clean) in that way.

Edited February 2, 2018 by CV75

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, brlenox said:

This one is one from above which may not be as specific as you like.  If it is then we can let it go.  If not I do have about 30 other baptism and ordinance quotes that I can go through to look for something more definitive.

Now following is an excerpt from Bruce R. McConkies well known talk the Seven Deadly Heresy's, it does not speak exactly to your question however, it captures the principle which does wholly play to the issue.

Thank you. These quotes don't provide an answer to what I am requesting; however, I don't have any argument with these quotes as I believe them. In light of this, I am not sure I then clarified my question properly. Let me see if this helps clarify my question:

Quote

Salvation from the Second Death. The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory (see Alma 12:32; D&C 88:24). This second death will not come until the Final Judgment, and it will come to only a few (see D&C 76:31-37). Almost every person who has ever lived on the earth is assured salvation from the second death (see D&C 76:40-45). (Source is lds.org)

The Lord saves all except the sons of perdition from "Second Death" meaning that everyone except the sons of perdition will receive a kingdom of glory. The quotes pertain to exaltation, which baptism is required. As everyone, all the sons and daughters of God will be baptized.

I assume the question would revolve around the notion as to whether or not baptism also is the reason why all except the sons of perdition are able to overcome second death? Or is baptism and confirmation solely for "exaltation", and even if they weren't baptized they would still receive a kingdom of glory (telestial or terrestrial)?

This then says, that if no one was baptized then at least the atonement of Jesus Christ would save all from second death, just can't obtain celestial glory (fullness with the Father).

Hopefully, that clarifies the question I am asking.

 

[Guest]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/06/justification-and-sanctification?lang=eng

Quote

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Moses 6: 59-60

 

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Note the specific wording of D&C 138:57-59. “The dead [speaking of “those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead”] who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.” This speaks to the spiritual redemption and not the physical resurrection.

There are two significant qualifiers here: 1. The dead who repent (not all do); 2. They shall receive a reward (there are many degrees) according to their works (of which there are also many degrees). Yes, they pay a penalty just as we all do when we sin, and this penalty entices us to draw upon faith in Christ to repent and we receive forgiveness, are healed, and washed clean through the merits of Christ. They are doing in the spirit world what we have the opportunity to do in this world.

How do we pay a penalty? Two ways: one, suffering a guilty conscience unto repentance and forgiveness through the merits of Christ (a fruit of humility); or two, refusing the fulness of glory that is offered to us through the merits of Christ (a fruit of pride). So to answer your question, "the rest (besides the celestial)" pay the penalty in the second manner, and so their debt is paid (they are washed clean) in that way.

Hum...So, are you saying they become cleansed by paying a penalty?

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, brlenox said:

Yes, that is correct , only terrestrial glory.  However, If you think back to who is included in this group, ie. the antediluvians  who were a wicked people then you realize that it was a merciful thing to bring them forth to the earth during a time when their ignorance was a shield to their potential for a much harsher judgment.

So, if one is wicked, and dies the best they can hope for is terrestrial glory?

[brlenox]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. These quotes don't provide an answer to what I am requesting; however, I don't have any argument with these quotes as I believe them. In light of this, I am not sure I then clarified my question properly. Let me see if this helps clarify my question:

The Lord saves all except the sons of perdition from "Second Death" meaning that everyone except the sons of perdition will receive a kingdom of glory. The quotes pertain to exaltation, which baptism is required. As everyone, all the sons and daughters of God will be baptized.

I assume the question would revolve around the notion as to whether or not baptism also is the reason why all except the sons of perdition are able to overcome second death? Or is baptism and confirmation solely for "exaltation", and even if they weren't baptized they would still receive a kingdom of glory (telestial or terrestrial)?

This then says, that if no one was baptized then at least the atonement of Jesus Christ would save all from second death, just can't obtain celestial glory (fullness with the Father).

Hopefully, that clarifies the question I am asking.

 

I think it does.  Let's take these quotes out for a spin:

 

Quote

Every man lives for himself. Adam was made to open the way of the world, and for dressing the garden. Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood; and the Son of God came into the world to redeem it from the fall. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This eternal truth settles the question of all men's religion. A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. He may receive a glory like unto the moon, [i.e., of which the light of the moon is typical], or a star, [i.e., of which the light of the stars is typical], but he can never come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, unless he becomes as a little child, and is taught by the Spirit of God. (Smith, Joseph, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.12) 

 

Quote

 

The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.

Each kingdom, of course, is governed by laws. We have nothing to do with the laws of the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, so far as the preaching of the gospel is concerned. Our mission is to preach the salvation of the kingdom of God, where he and Christ dwell, which is the celestial kingdom. And all of the principles of the gospel which have been given unto us pertain to the celestial kingdom. (Smith, Joseph Fielding, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:25-26)

 

 

Quote

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Smith, Joseph Fielding, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329) 

 

Quote

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Smith, Joseph Fielding, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

 

 

 

[brlenox]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, if one is wicked, and dies the best they can hope for is terrestrial glory?

I'm not so sure we are looking at the right end of the process.  Repentance allows, you and I, as wicked people an opportunity for celestial glory. 

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, brlenox said:

I'm not so sure we are looking at the right end of the process.  Repentance allows, you and I, as wicked people an opportunity for celestial glory. 

So, what is the cutoff between celestial and terrestrial in your opinion?

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...So, are you saying they become cleansed by paying a penalty?

The phrase is, "paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean." Christ can pay the penalty, or we can. When He pays it, we have eternal life. When we pay it, we have a lesser kingdom. His payment was made for all mankind by His blood, and yields His kingdom. Our payment is made by our refusal of His blood, and is an individual choice yields a lesser kingdom. In either case, we are washed clean of our debts (the penalty of transgression).

I'm heading out for vacation and won't be able to attend to this discussion for a week. We'll see where it stands at that point!

[estradling75]

18 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its apparent that our doctrine regarding the plan of salvation is anything but settled. Almost all LDS have a certain belief that differs from the next. Even manuals differ slightly from one to the next. Its one reason we discuss these things because we have unanswered questions. For instance, its quite confusing on things such as- is baptism required for the celestial kingdom, or celestial and terrestrial, or all three? And- is marriage only allowed in the celestial kingdom or also allowed in the terrestrial or telestial? What about those terrestrial heirs who have finally repented and are baptized and thus want the other temple blessings such as marriage? Are they screwed at that point?  Then when you start breaking down the principles of laws and covenants it gets even more confusing. For instance- the baptismal covenant is interesting in that it requires us to do all that the Lord commands us to do. It literally encompasses all future commandments and covenants made. Thus, by partaking of tge sacrament we renew our baptismal covenant which includes all other covenants we have thus entered into. For this reason we dont have to have a different ordinance that allows us to renew our temple covenants. The baptismal covenant and ordinance of that renewal- the sacrament, allows us to renew all covenants through that one covenant and ordinance. But, this isnt all. When we enter into the baptismal covenant we promise to do all that tge Lord has already commanded which include the commandment to be ye therefor perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. This is largely misunderstood. Many do not realize the baptismal covenant requires us to enter the path that leads to exaltation- the path of absolute perfection. Now, talk about throwing a monkey wrench into things! If the terrestrial heirs repent and are baptized they have thus covenanted to do "all" that the Lord has commanded them which includes becoming perfect like our Heavenly Father. How then can they be perfected if they cannot marry or cannot progress to that perfection because they are stuck eternally in a kingdom that doesnt allow exaltation? But, even this isnt all. For instance- we know about telestial, terrestrial, and celestial law. We learn of these laws in the temple. We learn there that one of the first laws we abide by is the law of chastity and sexual relations to our spouse only. This is a telestial law as it is a requirement of the telestial kingdom because we make that covenant in that kingdom. But wait, some say telestial heirs do not enter into marriage. So how then is this covenant and law a telestial law if it cannot be achieved? If we but remember this one simple principle all truth can be discerned. And what is that principle? That God has never given a law or covenant to his children other than to advance them to become perfect just as his is. No law that God has ever made, or will ever decree, will do something less than advance them into perfection. Therefore, one cannot be saved from hell unless he enters the road with its destination of perfection and exaltation in all things. That gate by which one enters that path is repentance and baptism. Once one enters he has covenanted with God to be obedient to all that the Lord has commanded and that, in time, they will receive exaltation. To believe one can enter this covenant path and then find some plateu short of full obedience is to deny the very principle, law, and covenant of the baptismal covenant itself.

Sigh...  Ok to go over this yet again.

It is ok to have questions... In fact I sure the Lord wants us to ask because he does not initially reveal everything. Even to the church at larger (We believe that God will yet reveal may great and important things).  Because of this we also need to learn accept "I don't know"

But the Lord does not leave us alone in our question.  He has given us the Spirit, the Scriptures and the Church.  If we are out of harmony with any of the three we know something went wrong in our personal studies.

Individually none of the three can stand by itself, we can listen to the wrong spirit, we can have the wrong interpretation of scripture, and individual church members can be wrong.

You have repeatedly declared that the church is wrong... And that should be the biggest flag that your studies have gone amiss.  So lets dig into that.  For the church the Lord has declared three requirements for us to know truth from it.  It must come from and Authoritative Source (Aka someone known and set apart with stewardship over the people in question), it must be Witness by at least one other person and this rolls into third of the Leadership must be united.

Now you have repeatedly claimed that Joseph Smith got the incorrect understanding from the Vision in 76 section.  The problem with that statement is that you are ignoring Sidney Rigdon.  Sidney was also a witness of the vision in Section 76.  So much so that Joseph and Sidney altered describing and confirming the others description of the vision.  Therefore the law of witness is fulfilled.  Joseph and Sidney were both acknowledged leaders of the church.

Now you make the claim that Joseph misunderstood and everyone else blindly accepted his misunderstanding.  And the only way you can possibly think this is if you do not know anything about Sidney Rigdon nor his history with Joseph Smith.  Sidney Rigdon was not afraid to call Joseph Smith out when he thought he was wrong.  History is very very clear about this (Oliver Cowdery also fulfilled this role on occasion). 

Sidney Rigdon saw the vision himself, Sidney would therefore have his own understanding of the vision.  Sidney would also repeatedly hear Joseph understanding of the vision as he taught the revelation.  Sidney himself would also teach it.  If they disagreed initially on interpretation, Sidney would not simply buckle under.  He knew God ordained him as a check, and he would have to be convinced.

Clearly they untied with both agreeing with the understanding of Section 76 that they taught.  Thus it fulfills all three of the Lord's requirements for what he want the Church to know.

You have repeatedly claimed that you Believe the Church is true, and that God leads he church though his prophets and other leaders.  Yet you then turn around and claim the Church is wrong.  This paradox of logic, reason and scriptural teachings.

There are two paths for you to take here... Either humble yourself and accept you don't know what you think you know.  This is the way of repentant.  The other way is to continue to declare that you are right and the church is wrong. This is the beginning of the road for apostates.

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

The phrase is, "paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean." Christ can pay the penalty, or we can. When He pays it, we have eternal life. When we pay it, we have a lesser kingdom. His payment was made for all mankind by His blood, and yields His kingdom. Our payment is made by our refusal of His blood, and is an individual choice yields a lesser kingdom. In either case, we are washed clean of our debts (the penalty of transgression).

I'm heading out for vacation and won't be able to attend to this discussion for a week. We'll see where it stands at that point!

Hum...when I read section 138 its rather apparent that the spirits in prison must repent, accept the gospel, be baptized, and other ordinances and covenants of the temple in order to be washed clean.

[Anddenex]

11 hours ago, brlenox said:

I think it does.  Let's take these quotes out for a spin:

This quote is what I was looking for:

Quote

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Smith, Joseph Fielding, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

 

[Rob Osborn]

54 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Sigh...  Ok to go over this yet again.

It is ok to have questions... In fact I sure the Lord wants us to ask because he does not initially reveal everything. Even to the church at larger (We believe that God will yet reveal may great and important things).  Because of this we also need to learn accept "I don't know"

But the Lord does not leave us alone in our question.  He has given us the Spirit, the Scriptures and the Church.  If we are out of harmony with any of the three we know something went wrong in our personal studies.

Individually none of the three can stand by itself, we can listen to the wrong spirit, we can have the wrong interpretation of scripture, and individual church members can be wrong.

You have repeatedly declared that the church is wrong... And that should be the biggest flag that your studies have gone amiss.  So lets dig into that.  For the church the Lord has declared three requirements for us to know truth from it.  It must come from and Authoritative Source (Aka someone known and set apart with stewardship over the people in question), it must be Witness by at least one other person and this rolls into third of the Leadership must be united.

Now you have repeatedly claimed that Joseph Smith got the incorrect understanding from the Vision in 76 section.  The problem with that statement is that you are ignoring Sidney Rigdon.  Sidney was also a witness of the vision in Section 76.  So much so that Joseph and Sidney altered describing and confirming the others description of the vision.  Therefore the law of witness is fulfilled.  Joseph and Sidney were both acknowledged leaders of the church.

Now you make the claim that Joseph misunderstood and everyone else blindly accepted his misunderstanding.  And the only way you can possibly think this is if you do not know anything about Sidney Rigdon nor his history with Joseph Smith.  Sidney Rigdon was not afraid to call Joseph Smith out when he thought he was wrong.  History is very very clear about this (Oliver Cowdery also fulfilled this role on occasion). 

Sidney Rigdon saw the vision himself, Sidney would therefore have his own understanding of the vision.  Sidney would also repeatedly hear Joseph understanding of the vision as he taught the revelation.  Sidney himself would also teach it.  If they disagreed initially on interpretation, Sidney would not simply buckle under.  He knew God ordained him as a check, and he would have to be convinced.

Clearly they untied with both agreeing with the understanding of Section 76 that they taught.  Thus it fulfills all three of the Lord's requirements for what he want the Church to know.

You have repeatedly claimed that you Believe the Church is true, and that God leads he church though his prophets and other leaders.  Yet you then turn around and claim the Church is wrong.  This paradox of logic, reason and scriptural teachings.

There are two paths for you to take here... Either humble yourself and accept you don't know what you think you know.  This is the way of repentant.  The other way is to continue to declare that you are right and the church is wrong. This is the beginning of the road for apostates.

 

 

I disagree with your analysis. I completely believe Joseph Smith saw the vision. Now, how that vision was interpreted and written raises obvious questions. I believe in the line upon line principle. I believe Joseph Smith honestly asked to know the breakdown of the saved and the damned. Joseph Smith was convinced there must be some other place for the saved to go besides the celestial (kingdom of heaven). So, he was shown the vision. The angel is showing Joseph how it is that man becomes saved. The angel shows the state of the damned in hell (sons of perdition) and the saved who become spotless. Those are the two end states the Lord shows Joseph. But, the angel then shows the telestial and terrestrial worlds. Why? To show how it is possible for man to advance and become spotless. It wasnt revealed until later on (that line upon line principle) that the Telestial kingdom/world is in fact the very world we are now in and we all start our progression back to our Father in this kingdom. Then, we advance into the Terrestrial kingdom/world (the millennium) and finally become spotless and Christ presents the one singular kingdom to the Father to receive Celestial glory.

Thus, when properly understood those contradictions fade away such as Joseph having seen sons of perdition in the Telestial kingdom. 

The temple endowment is the latest revealed line upon line concerning the plan of salvation. The temple teaches the correct and most up to date plan of salvation. Now, how come we dont teach that plan outside of the temple? Im really not sure but I would venture to say that the people arent ready for that understanding. There are still several steps to be taken to go from our current paradigm to what has been revealed in the temple. People are unique creatures and we dont respond well to change especially if that change requires we adopt a new worldview. Not only that but such a huge doctrinal change would send shockwaves in the LDS community and a lot wouldnt take it well. It wasnt until just recently that an apostle of the Lord finally, publicly, stated that this earth is "the Telestial kingdom". These changes are coming. The prophets of our God are aware. It may take several decades or even generations for these changes to take hold. I mean- think about it, the endowment has been around for a very long time and how many people pick up that the endowment ceremony is the plan of salvation and the telestial kingdom is the world we now live in? Very very few! It took me several years to pick up on that which is plainly and repeatedly spoken over and over in the temple. It proves to me that even when it is plainly given to us we only see and hear what we want to see and hear.

I dont raise these questions of thought in an afront against the church. I love my religiin. I love Joseph Smith. He was truly a prophet of God. How do I know? Because, through him the true plan was revealed in the temple and even he himself didnt understand what was unfolding. Thats pure revelation!

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I disagree with your analysis. I completely believe Joseph Smith saw the vision. Now, how that vision was interpreted and written raises obvious questions. I believe in the line upon line principle. I believe Joseph Smith honestly asked to know the breakdown of the saved and the damned. Joseph Smith was convinced there must be some other place for the saved to go besides the celestial (kingdom of heaven). So, he was shown the vision. The angel is showing Joseph how it is that man becomes saved. The angel shows the state of the damned in hell (sons of perdition) and the saved who become spotless. Those are the two end states the Lord shows Joseph. But, the angel then shows the telestial and terrestrial worlds. Why? To show how it is possible for man to advance and become spotless. It wasnt revealed until later on (that line upon line principle) that the Telestial kingdom/world is in fact the very world we are now in and we all start our progression back to our Father in this kingdom. Then, we advance into the Terrestrial kingdom/world (the millennium) and finally become spotless and Christ presents the one singular kingdom to the Father to receive Celestial glory.

Thus, when properly understood those contradictions fade away such as Joseph having seen sons of perdition in the Telestial kingdom. 

The temple endowment is the latest revealed line upon line concerning the plan of salvation. The temple teaches the correct and most up to date plan of salvation. Now, how come we dont teach that plan outside of the temple? Im really not sure but I would venture to say that the people arent ready for that understanding. There are still several steps to be taken to go from our current paradigm to what has been revealed in the temple. People are unique creatures and we dont respond well to change especially if that change requires we adopt a new worldview. Not only that but such a huge doctrinal change would send shockwaves in the LDS community and a lot wouldnt take it well. It wasnt until just recently that an apostle of the Lord finally, publicly, stated that this earth is "the Telestial kingdom". These changes are coming. The prophets of our God are aware. It may take several decades or even generations for these changes to take hold. I mean- think about it, the endowment has been around for a very long time and how many people pick up that the endowment ceremony is the plan of salvation and the telestial kingdom is the world we now live in? Very very few! It took me several years to pick up on that which is plainly and repeatedly spoken over and over in the temple. It proves to me that even when it is plainly given to us we only see and hear what we want to see and hear.

I dont raise these questions of thought in an afront against the church. I love my religiin. I love Joseph Smith. He was truly a prophet of God. How do I know? Because, through him the true plan was revealed in the temple and even he himself didnt understand what was unfolding. Thats pure revelation!

Again you totally ignored Sidney Ridgon and his role in the the church's understanding.

And you are ignoring God pattern for revealing truth to the church.

Until you address these issues you will continue to be confused and believe falsehoods

 

[Traveler]

@Seeker of truth,

One of the great problems in understanding and relating to the “Plan of Salvation” is that so many are concerned with doctrine – thinking that salvation comes from understanding doctrine.  The problem is that salvation is not a mental exercise – there is more to salvation than thinking and doctrine.  The essence of salvation is what is called in scripture as “A Change of Heart” not a change of mind or ideas or impressions of doctrine. 

Part of understanding a change of heart is the modern Hollywood concept of what our heart is.  Because many think in terms of the heart as the organ that pumps blood we have this idea that our heart is where love comes from and therefore a change of heart is all about feelings and emotions.  Ancient reference to heart meant the core of an individual and that is much more than emotions and feelings – our heart is the essence of who we are.  So, in essence a change of heart is a complete change of who we are.  Contrary to those that think only in terms of doctrine – repentance is more than getting rid of sins.  In scripture we are told that we are “spiritually” reborn through repentance.

The other part of salvation most often overlooked is what the scriptures call the law.  It is by the law that there is justice.  Mercy can forgive sin but mercy cannot cause a heart to change.  A change of heart comes only through obedience to the law.  Obedience to the law comes in two parts – the parts are called ordinances and covenants.  Thus the first step in obedience to the law is a submission to the ordinances.  Those that do not submit to the ordinances in this mortal life will have opportunity in the spirit probation and time between death and the resurrection.

Thus, by ordinance and covenant we will all stand before G-d to submit and validate our individual plan for eternity.  Those that have prepared for Celestial law will be ready and have all things (ordinances and covenants of the law) prepared for their Celestial resurrection.  We are told of three divine laws that we can change our hearts to receive.  If our hearts are not changed and prepared through divine law we cannot abide that law and if we cannot receive a law of glory we become subject of, or in bondage to; the law in which there is no divine glory.  We are warned that Satan is the master of those that cannot abide any of the laws of glory.  In essence we become “subjects” of Satan and his law.

I have come to understand that the first step to freedom is discipline.  The first step to bondage and captivity is indulgence.   The first being an act of sacrifice of self the second is an act of sacrifice of others or act of selfishness.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Again you totally ignored Sidney Ridgon and his role in the the church's understanding.

And you are ignoring God pattern for revealing truth to the church.

Until you address these issues you will continue to be confused and believe falsehoods

 

Yes, Sidney saw it too. They saw the same thing. What did they see? The same thing I said on my previous post. They both at that time didnt understand that this earth is the telestial kingdom.

[estradling75]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yes, Sidney saw it too. They saw the same thing. What did they see? The same thing I said on my previous post. They both at that time didnt understand that this earth is the telestial kingdom.

So God's pattern failed....  God lied to us...  That is a huge claim.

 

[Rob Osborn]

51 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

So God's pattern failed....  God lied to us...  That is a huge claim.

 

No, the opposite. God reveals line upon line. Our fault as man is jumping to conclusions when the second, third, fourth, and so on lines get revealed.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I disagree with your analysis. I completely believe Joseph Smith saw the vision. Now, how that vision was interpreted and written raises obvious questions.

If that raises obvious questions, then you're denying the role of continuing line of authority though modern prophets.

[estradling75]

33 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No, the opposite. God reveals line upon line. Our fault as man is jumping to conclusions when the second, third, fourth, and so on lines get revealed.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the pattern I am talking about

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the pattern I am talking about

Well, the pattern you are talking about is your own philosophy on how truth is established. There is both "official doctrine" and "truth" and not all the time those two go hand in hand. As humans we have a tendancy to fill in the gaps of truth with opinions and then establish that paradigm as what we believe to be true. Then, later on we get revealed the next line and it doesnt always line up with what we put in place to fill the gaps. The plan of salvation in LDS theology is a perfect example of this process. First came the Book of Mormon which teaches the binary heaven/hell model. As part of the early church founded upon the BoM we didnt have anything else- no endowment, no temple marriage or sealings, not even much as far as doctrines on the work for the dead and vicarious temple work. That early doctrine didnt have any teachings regarding becoming Gods, the true fate of the spirits in hell, if repentance was possible after death, etc. So, we had this early doctrine that though much the same as Protestants. Then as one doctrine after the next was revealed the church had to modify its beliefs and even quash out errors in the doctrine. Temple work for the masses didnt come til much later and when it came more confusion ensued as polygamy was in full effect and you had prophets such as Brigham Young teaching that celestial marriage was polygammy and anyone who didnt enter into polygamy would be damned. Lots of temple rites were alao misconstrued, carried over filled in gaps from masonry. Death signs of cutting the throat and all was part of the endowment. Even a woman on her menstral cycle was not supposed to take part in temple work until she was clean.

The point Im making here is that we tend to fill in gaps of misunderstanding with our own opinions. And so too it is with the plan of salvation. Line upon line we have received. That last line we havent received yet in our hearts and minds even though it has already been revealed. 

You know how often I get told I am wrong for saying this earth we live in is "the telestial kingdom"? Almost all the time. No one believes it. And yet now we have a prophet of the Lord declaring such. Let me quote-

"To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

If that raises obvious questions, then you're denying the role of continuing line of authority though modern prophets.

How so? That next line was the temple endowment which explains the three kingdoms in their proper context. 

[estradling75]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, the pattern you are talking about is your own philosophy on how truth is established. There is both "official doctrine" and "truth" and not all the time those two go hand in hand. As humans we have a tendancy to fill in the gaps of truth with opinions and then establish that paradigm as what we believe to be true.

Ahh so in spite of having me explain the pattern multiple times in multiple threads you never once express any indication that the pattern was wrong (or that I was wrong in my understanding of the pattern)

Only now when you realize how it blows your personal hobby horse out of the water do you make any attempt whatsoever to address it.  It is a weak sauce attempt to label it as "my philosophy" without any attempt to show why it is wrong or how I misunderstood the scripture quoted.

Well two can play that game.  Your understanding of the Degrees of Glory is "your philosophy" aka the Gospel of Rob where you are filling in the gaps with your opinions and then trying to establish that as truth.