Recommended Posts

As an investigator i keep hearing the word Agency but not the kind often connected to investigators.. Not a place with desks and a Secretary and a coffee machine.. But something every man & woman is connected to.. A choice if I'm understanding it right? Free will... We have the option to choose our road.. The narrow road to life or the broad and spacious road to destruction.. So we're not robots or mindless drones forced under someone's thumb.. That's wonderful.. It gives us freedom in a sense.. Something desired by everyone. 

But is it really a choice if one of the two options ends in eternal suffering or death or being cast out of Gods favor or whatever the LDS beliefs are for the ones who choose poorly? I mean yes i can choose but if the consequence is eternal misery or non existence that's a pretty one sided offer no? If it were that if you chose not to follow  Gods commandments you could still exist in the same manner as those that do thats one thing but if your decision is based on fear.. And i know not everyone's is.. But i don't see a real choice there.. I mean it's there sure.. But you know what i mean.. 

I would think God would want his children to want to sanctify his name out of pure willing desire not because they don't want to die.  And again i know that's not the case for the majority that choose Gods way but for some.. Well... Can someone help me see this from a different view? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some kids do the right thing because they want to please their parents.  

Some kids do the right thing because they don't want their mobile phone taken away.

Either child's attitude doesn't change the motive of the parent (although it might frustrate them!!!).  

The parent wants the best for both children, but if one of those children breaks the law, the parent is kinda powerless to stop the punishment the child will receive for doing it.

People generally respond in one of two ways, to avoid pain, or to gain pleasure.

I agree with Grunt, the difference is how you look at it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

one of the two options

Does your frustration stem from thinking we believe in only one of two options/outcomes? Favor or disfavor? If there where more than two options, say a variety, would that sit better with you? Curious?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

As an investigator i keep hearing the word Agency but not the kind often connected to investigators.. Not a place with desks and a Secretary and a coffee machine.. But something every man & woman is connected to.. A choice if I'm understanding it right? Free will... We have the option to choose our road.. The narrow road to life or the broad and spacious road to destruction.. So we're not robots or mindless drones forced under someone's thumb.. That's wonderful.. It gives us freedom in a sense.. Something desired by everyone. 

But is it really a choice if one of the two options ends in eternal suffering or death or being cast out of Gods favor or whatever the LDS beliefs are for the ones who choose poorly? I mean yes i can choose but if the consequence is eternal misery or non existence that's a pretty one sided offer no? If it were that if you chose not to follow  Gods commandments you could still exist in the same manner as those that do thats one thing but if your decision is based on fear.. And i know not everyone's is.. But i don't see a real choice there.. I mean it's there sure.. But you know what i mean.. 

I would think God would want his children to want to sanctify his name out of pure willing desire not because they don't want to die.  And again i know that's not the case for the majority that choose Gods way but for some.. Well... Can someone help me see this from a different view? 

Agency - the more accurate usage is the Free Agency in American professional sports like in Football.

For example:  Nick Foles just got done putting a beating on Team Tom Brady.  So, as a 2nd string QB with a contract under the Eagles, he is for sure currently wishing he is not tied to that 5-year contract so he can go find a team where he won't be sitting on the bench next season.  Because, he can't just tell Philadephia, "Guess what, Wentz (the 1st string QB) is gonna be back next season, I'm gonna go choose the best team (e.g. the team that offers the most money, the team that has the best offensive line, the team with great moral and ethical standards, or any combination of any reason, etc.) who I want to play for next year".  He can't do that even as he gained so much value and skill and went out to prove it.  He is tied to a 5-year contract that doesn't get the trade-off option until February 2019.  So, he has to wait until February 2019 to become a Free Agent unless his team decides to let him off his contract and sell him to somebody of the team's choosing (not necessary Foles' choosing).  So, as you can see, Nick Foles is not a Free Agent.  He can't just choose to represent who he chooses to represent.

But we, as human beings, have Free Agency.  We can choose to represent who we want to represent.  We can represent Christ or we can represent worldly gods, or we can represent Odin, Zeus, Beelzebub, Satan, etc. etc.  When we choose to get baptized, it's like we signed up for the Philadelphia Eagles - we sign that lifetime commitment, live according to the team standards, and wear that jersey.  We stand to represent Team Jesus Christ.  We are not forced to sign that contract.  We are not coerced into it.  But there are things that could force us NOT to sign that contract and sign for another Team.  For example, Team Alcohol or Team Tobacco or Team Heroin... they are notorious for taking away your Free Agency and getting you to a place where you can't get out of the contract even when you desperate want to.  There's also Team Debt or Team Money-God or Team Hedonism or Team "This-Is-Who-I-am-and-I-Can't-Change-It-Because-I-Was-Born-With-It", etc. etc. etc.

Edited by anatess2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

But is it really a choice if one of the two options ends in eternal suffering or death or being cast out of Gods favor or whatever the LDS beliefs are for the ones who choose poorly?

Well, LDS belief on the matter is a bit more choice-rich than most of the rest of Christianity.

John 4:2 "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
Psalm 82:6: "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Romans 8:17: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

We mormons take those scriptures (and those like it) and run with it hard.  We figure there are degrees of Glory, levels of heaven, different ways to end up living the rest of eternity.  We take the "children of God" claims in scripture literally, and we realize that children are of the same race as their parents, and we can grow up to be just like them.  Yes, we dare to go there.   We're more than just God's creations, we're actually, literally, fully, His children.

We also wonder exactly how "eternal", eternal punishment will be.  Since one of God's names is "Eternal", perhaps those scriptures just mean "God's punishment".

We also figure there are temporary states after death, but before the final judgment.  Purgatory and paradise - where people still have some sort of ability to choose to follow Christ.

 

Yeah, we do more than the black-and-white either heaven or hell thing in this faith.  The only folks who end up permanently cast out of God's presence forever, are those who see clearly and make that choice, despite every effort from a loving and perfect parent.

Edited by NeuroTypical
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

But is it really a choice if one of the two options ends in eternal suffering or death or being cast out of Gods favor or whatever the LDS beliefs are for the ones who choose poorly?

You're beginning with the false notion that humans are logical creatures.  We're not.  The vast majority of the time (even when we think we've weighed our options) we make decisions on emotion and desire of the moment rather than far sighted logic.

The test of mortality is that we have many tangible benefits that are immediate, vs. long term benefits that we have to have faith to see.  If we are the type of person to think only of the moment and never consider long term consequences, then it doesn't matter what the afterlife is about.

If we are the type of person who depends more on the immediate, provable, physically perceptible benefits over the long-term, spiritual, faith-requiring benefits, then we will show what kind of person we are.

How often can we see things like a lack of any evidence for a universal flood and think that the Bible was clearly wrong?  How often can we read a timeline of only 7000 years of human existence vs scientific evidence of a much longer period of human existence and believe that the Bible is just a fairy tale?

But through faith, we know that God is our Father.  We know through faith that Jesus Christ is our Savior.  We don't know these things because of logic and a weighing of cost-to-benefits.  We believe these because that is our internal nature.

And if the only reason you're doing good is for your eternal reward, that isn't exactly wrong, but you're missing the point.  It isn't about "having the reward."  It is about becoming the person you need to be so that the reward is right for you.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

As an investigator i keep hearing the word Agency but not the kind often connected to investigators.. Not a place with desks and a Secretary and a coffee machine.. But something every man & woman is connected to.. A choice if I'm understanding it right? Free will... We have the option to choose our road.. The narrow road to life or the broad and spacious road to destruction.. So we're not robots or mindless drones forced under someone's thumb.. That's wonderful.. It gives us freedom in a sense.. Something desired by everyone. 

But is it really a choice if one of the two options ends in eternal suffering or death or being cast out of Gods favor or whatever the LDS beliefs are for the ones who choose poorly? I mean yes i can choose but if the consequence is eternal misery or non existence that's a pretty one sided offer no? If it were that if you chose not to follow  Gods commandments you could still exist in the same manner as those that do thats one thing but if your decision is based on fear.. And i know not everyone's is.. But i don't see a real choice there.. I mean it's there sure.. But you know what i mean.. 

I would think God would want his children to want to sanctify his name out of pure willing desire not because they don't want to die.  And again i know that's not the case for the majority that choose Gods way but for some.. Well... Can someone help me see this from a different view? 

There's one big thing I haven't seen mention yet in this thread:

When the Lord tells you not to do something, it's not just because it makes Him upset.  Rather, when He tells you not to do something, it's because that thing hurts you.  Like when I tell my daughter to wait before drinking her hot chocolate- I tell her so because I love her,  And if she doesn't wait and burns her tongue, that pain is not because I'm punishing her-- rather it hurts because burns hurt, and being burned is the consequences of her actions.  I didn't want her to burn herself- that's why I told her to wait!  But she has her choice...

Conversely, when the Lord tells you to DO something, it's because it's good for you.  And naturally good things follow.  Why don't we always do this?  Frankly, we can be quite lazy, sin loving, or short sighted.  Like I should have worked out today... but I didn't.  I got on the computer instead.  I was lazy.  

 

Relating this to the ultimate "to follow God or not": again, you can come unto Him and feel the good things.  Or you can not and face the natural consequences of your own actions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have a million choices every day.  Some bring you closer to God, others lead you further from God.  It's not about always picking the exact right choice. It's about recognizing when choices are right.  And then trying to make more right choices, because right choices lead to happiness.   You won't face God one day and he says "Do you choose heaven or hell?"  It will be who you are, what you have become in the journey.  Some choices lead to bigger opportunities which then lead to other opportunities, both spiritual and temporal.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/6/2018 at 4:40 AM, NeedleinA said:

Does your frustration stem from thinking we believe in only one of two options/outcomes? Favor or disfavor? If there where more than two options, say a variety, would that sit better with you? Curious?

Im not frustrated... You make it sound like I'm upset about the ramifications being ungodly holds.. I'm just saying is it really a fair choice if one of the options is everlasting banishment? And no a variety would not sit well.. There can be only 2 results because there are only 2 roads... But when the roads end in completely opposite destinations were persuaded heavily towards one over the other AND YET the majority are on the other ( not passing judgement quoting the bible) That's the irony for lack of a better word. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Im not frustrated... You make it sound like I'm upset about the ramifications being ungodly holds.. I'm just saying is it really a fair choice if one of the options is everlasting banishment? And no a variety would not sit well.. There can be only 2 results because there are only 2 roads... But when the roads end in completely opposite destinations were persuaded heavily towards one over the other AND YET the majority are on the other ( not passing judgement quoting the bible) That's the irony for lack of a better word. 

With LDS doctrine, there is actually a spectrum of godliness (not just a binary 1 or 2).  It is also believe that VAST majority of people will be in some degree of glory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/6/2018 at 11:59 AM, Jane_Doe said:

There's one big thing I haven't seen mention yet in this thread:

When the Lord tells you not to do something, it's not just because it makes Him upset.  Rather, when He tells you not to do something, it's because that thing hurts you.  Like when I tell my daughter to wait before drinking her hot chocolate- I tell her so because I love her,  And if she doesn't wait and burns her tongue, that pain is not because I'm punishing her-- rather it hurts because burns hurt, and being burned is the consequences of her actions.  I didn't want her to burn herself- that's why I told her to wait!  But she has her choice...

Conversely, when the Lord tells you to DO something, it's because it's good for you.  And naturally good things follow.  Why don't we always do this?  Frankly, we can be quite lazy, sin loving, or short sighted.  Like I should have worked out today... but I didn't.  I got on the computer instead.  I was lazy.  

 

Relating this to the ultimate "to follow God or not": again, you can come unto Him and feel the good things.  Or you can not and face the natural consequences of your own actions. 

I agree with almost everything you said.. But it is possible to decide you're not going to serve God and not do harm to yourself or face harsh repercussions from it... Your point is fornicate and catch a disease  ... Do drugs and end up in prison.. Cheat on your family and lose them.. Etc.. Agreed.  But someone could not do any of those things and also decide they don't want to subject themselves to God.  

Let's say someone never went to church never prayed.  never read the gospel.  but also never wronged or hurt another human or himself  .. Wasn't perfect but committed no transgressions they just wanted to exercise their choice to serve God or not.. And chose not to.. What would happen to that person on judgement day? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/6/2018 at 6:42 AM, anatess2 said:

Agency - the more accurate usage is the Free Agency in American professional sports like in Football.

For example:  Nick Foles just got done putting a beating on Team Tom Brady.  So, as a 2nd string QB with a contract under the Eagles, he is for sure currently wishing he is not tied to that 5-year contract so he can go find a team where he won't be sitting on the bench next season.  Because, he can't just tell Philadephia, "Guess what, Wentz (the 1st string QB) is gonna be back next season, I'm gonna go choose the best team (e.g. the team that offers the most money, the team that has the best offensive line, the team with great moral and ethical standards, or any combination of any reason, etc.) who I want to play for next year".  He can't do that even as he gained so much value and skill and went out to prove it.  He is tied to a 5-year contract that doesn't get the trade-off option until February 2019.  So, he has to wait until February 2019 to become a Free Agent unless his team decides to let him off his contract and sell him to somebody of the team's choosing (not necessary Foles' choosing).  So, as you can see, Nick Foles is not a Free Agent.  He can't just choose to represent who he chooses to represent.

But we, as human beings, have Free Agency.  We can choose to represent who we want to represent.  We can represent Christ or we can represent worldly gods, or we can represent Odin, Zeus, Beelzebub, Satan, etc. etc.  When we choose to get baptized, it's like we signed up for the Philadelphia Eagles - we sign that lifetime commitment, live according to the team standards, and wear that jersey.  We stand to represent Team Jesus Christ.  We are not forced to sign that contract.  We are not coerced into it.  But there are things that could force us NOT to sign that contract and sign for another Team.  For example, Team Alcohol or Team Tobacco or Team Heroin... they are notorious for taking away your Free Agency and getting you to a place where you can't get out of the contract even when you desperate want to.  There's also Team Debt or Team Money-God or Team Hedonism or Team "This-Is-Who-I-am-and-I-Can't-Change-It-Because-I-Was-Born-With-It", etc. etc. etc.

That's a great analogy.. I've Been an Eagles fan for 36 years.  a long rough road it has been.. Nick foles isn't a free agent now but he will be next February and then he can choose freely so i don't fully get your point in that.. And when we sign a contract with baptism it's nothing like a sports contract.. We can break ours at any time.. Anytime we want to we can stand-up and walk right out of any church and into another and can't be sued or forced to come back.  because it's not a real tangible contract.. It's just a thought.. And thoughts don't hold up in court. 

But I'm talking about someone who never has been baptized. Never had interest in religion ever just living their life but choosing to do it without God.. Just keeping to themselves not hurting anyone.. What is their ultimate fate? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/6/2018 at 8:50 AM, Carborendum said:

You're beginning with the false notion that humans are logical creatures.  We're not.  The vast majority of the time (even when we think we've weighed our options) we make decisions on emotion and desire of the moment rather than far sighted logic.

The test of mortality is that we have many tangible benefits that are immediate, vs. long term benefits that we have to have faith to see.  If we are the type of person to think only of the moment and never consider long term consequences, then it doesn't matter what the afterlife is about.

If we are the type of person who depends more on the immediate, provable, physically perceptible benefits over the long-term, spiritual, faith-requiring benefits, then we will show what kind of person we are.

How often can we see things like a lack of any evidence for a universal flood and think that the Bible was clearly wrong?  How often can we read a timeline of only 7000 years of human existence vs scientific evidence of a much longer period of human existence and believe that the Bible is just a fairy tale?

But through faith, we know that God is our Father.  We know through faith that Jesus Christ is our Savior.  We don't know these things because of logic and a weighing of cost-to-benefits.  We believe these because that is our internal nature.

And if the only reason you're doing good is for your eternal reward, that isn't exactly wrong, but you're missing the point.  It isn't about "having the reward."  It is about becoming the person you need to be so that the reward is right for you.

Haha for sure.. Man i have made some dumb decisions ... I guess we all have.. We must be somewhat logical though or God wouldn't leave the choice up to us would he? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

But I'm talking about someone who never has been baptized. Never had interest in religion ever just living their life but choosing to do it without God.. Just keeping to themselves not hurting anyone.. What is their ultimate fate? 

I'd be interested to hear viewpoints on this as well, I'd like to think they'd go to heaven and in the LDS view one of the higher levels of heaven, but I'm not the best person to ask so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in on this one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I'd be interested to hear viewpoints on this as well, I'd like to think they'd go to heaven and in the LDS view one of the higher levels of heaven, but I'm not the best person to ask so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in on this one.

Higher levels of heaven?? Are you saying there's different tiers? Like time Warner cable offers? Can i get to the tier that has the NFL package? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

That's a great analogy.. I've Been an Eagles fan for 36 years.  a long rough road it has been.. Nick foles isn't a free agent now but he will be next February and then he can choose freely so i don't fully get your point in that.. And when we sign a contract with baptism it's nothing like a sports contract.. We can break ours at any time.. Anytime we want to we can stand-up and walk right out of any church and into another and can't be sued or forced to come back.  because it's not a real tangible contract.. It's just a thought.. And thoughts don't hold up in court. 

But I'm talking about someone who never has been baptized. Never had interest in religion ever just living their life but choosing to do it without God.. Just keeping to themselves not hurting anyone.. What is their ultimate fate?  

EXACTLY.  Free Agency.  We can make it and break it anytime.  Anytime at all.  We are free to do so because our Free Agency is a gift from God.  So we can wear whatever team jersey we want, join a Church, leave a Church, etc... whereas Foles can't break his contract with the Eagles because the Eagles are not letting him off without paying a quadzillion dollars first.

In the LDS Articles of Faith, we claim the privilege of worshiping God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, letting them worship how, where, or what they may as free agents unto themselves.  Baptism by proper authority (through the Priesthood Authority Christ conferred to the LDS Church) is a requirement for us to accept Christ's grace of the atonement.  But if someone's conscience has not reached that point in their journey to Christ while alive on Earth, then they will still have the opportunity to learn of Christ in the spirit world.  A living person can be baptized as their proxy and they can accept that proxy baptism according to their conscience to join the rest of the saints.  Learning of God's plan for us is not limited to mortal existence.  It is available to all - alive or dead - on a continuing progression, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little getting closer to Christ until we become like Him and achieve perfection.  The only ones that are cast out to outer darkness without any hope for progression unto Christ are those who received full knowledge of Christ and then rejected Him. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Higher levels of heaven?? Are you saying there's different tiers? Like time Warner cable offers? Can i get to the tier that has the NFL package? 

They are called "degrees of glory".  So, in my post above I mentioned that we continue to progress line upon line.  There then comes a time after Christ comes to earth again in the fullness of His glory that the Final Judgment is made on the fate of all God's children.  In this Final judgment, Christ determines our conscience and judges us according to what our hearts desire.  Those who reject Christ with their hearts is cast out to outer darkness and wouldn't be with the Father nor Christ nor the Holy Ghost.  The rest of God's children is sifted to 3 kingdoms with varying degrees of glory - Telestrial glory, Terrestrial glory, or Celestial glory - according to the state of their hearts.  Those whose Will is aligned perfectly with God's Will may enter Celestial glory with the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  The glory of the Terrestrial Kingdom is a lower degree of glory than the Celestial and the Telestial Kingdom is lower than Terrestrial.  It can be akin to gazing at the amount of light at the sky from earth - the brightness of the sun is akin to Celestial glory, the moon Terrestrial glory, and the stars Telestial glory.  But the Telestial Kingdom - the lowest of the glories - is a glory far greater than that of earth life... it will be much better than the NFL package.

Although, we refrain from judging people's hearts and where they would end up on Final Judgment, the stories in the Bible leads us to believe that King David will not be able to enter Celestial glory.

Edited by anatess2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

I agree with almost everything you said.. But it is possible to decide you're not going to serve God and not do harm to yourself or face harsh repercussions from it... Your point is fornicate and catch a disease  ... Do drugs and end up in prison.. Cheat on your family and lose them.. Etc.. Agreed.  But someone could not do any of those things and also decide they don't want to subject themselves to God.  

Of course when we do good things / things God commands us to (because they are good for us), good things follow!   I meant to say that in the second paragraph of my previous post (sorry if it didn't convey).

6 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Let's say someone never went to church never prayed.  never read the gospel.  but also never wronged or hurt another human or himself  .. Wasn't perfect but committed no transgressions they just wanted to exercise their choice to serve God or not.. And chose not to.. What would happen to that person on judgement day? 

If a person doesn't have the opportunity to hear about the Gospel in this life, then they will have that opportunity after death in Spirt Prison.  God is perfectly just and paves the way for ALL people to hear His Good News and accept it.  More information on Spirit Prison can be found here: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng      Important note: this is all talking about things which happen after death but before Judgement Day.   If you want to read about Judgement Day, flip to chapter 46 in that linked book.

Edited by Jane_Doe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I'd be interested to hear viewpoints on this as well, I'd like to think they'd go to heaven and in the LDS view one of the higher levels of heaven, but I'm not the best person to ask so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in on this one.

All people will have the opportunity to hear about Christ and accept Him (whether before mortal death, or after).  All people whom accept Him fully will be with Him fully, in the highest degree of glory.  All people who accept Him only lukewarmly, have accepted a lukewarm degree of His glory.  It does not matter when this acceptance happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Im not frustrated... You make it sound like I'm upset about the ramifications being ungodly holds.. I'm just saying is it really a fair choice if one of the options is everlasting banishment? And no a variety would not sit well.. There can be only 2 results because there are only 2 roads... But when the roads end in completely opposite destinations were persuaded heavily towards one over the other AND YET the majority are on the other ( not passing judgement quoting the bible) That's the irony for lack of a better word. 

Wouldn't that FACT kinda quash your theory about it "not really being a choice"?

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Let's say someone never went to church never prayed.  never read the gospel.  but also never wronged or hurt another human or himself  .. Wasn't perfect but committed no transgressions they just wanted to exercise their choice to serve God or not.. And chose not to.. What would happen to that person on judgement day? 

Can I choose not to breathe oxygen? Can I choose not to drink liquids any more? Yes, actually, I can choose either of those things, but the results will be suboptimal.

God is life. Sure, we can choose to ignore God and live without him, just as we can choose to not breathe oxygen.

To make one or two possibly unwarranted assumptions, I would suggest that your thinking on this issue is incomplete. Badly incomplete. Incomplete to the point that what you're suggesting doesn't even make sense, just as it would not make sense for us to seek to emancipate ourselves from the need for oxygen. I suspect your understanding of God and our relationship to him is deficient.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

EXACTLY.  Free Agency.  We can make it and break it anytime.  Anytime at all.  We are free to do so because our Free Agency is a gift from God.  So we can wear whatever team jersey we want, join a Church, leave a Church, etc... whereas Foles can't break his contract with the Eagles because the Eagles are not letting him off without paying a quadzillion dollars first.

In the LDS Articles of Faith, we claim the privilege of worshiping God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, letting them worship how, where, or what they may as free agents unto themselves.  Baptism by proper authority (through the Priesthood Authority Christ conferred to the LDS Church) is a requirement for us to accept Christ's grace of the atonement.  But if someone's conscience has not reached that point in their journey to Christ while alive on Earth, then they will still have the opportunity to learn of Christ in the spirit world.  A living person can be baptized as their proxy and they can accept that proxy baptism according to their conscience to join the rest of the saints.  Learning of God's plan for us is not limited to mortal existence.  It is available to all - alive or dead - on a continuing progression, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little getting closer to Christ until we become like Him and achieve perfection.  The only ones that are cast out to outer darkness without any hope for progression unto Christ are those who received full knowledge of Christ and then rejected Him. 

 

 

Are you saying if someone is baptized by another church it is invalid? Only the LDS have the authority to perform a righteous dunking? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Are you saying if someone is baptized by another church it is invalid? Only the LDS have the authority to perform a righteous dunking? 

Only Christ's Church as His authority.  LDS believe that this Church is the LDS Church.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

They are called "degrees of glory".  So, in my post above I mentioned that we continue to progress line upon line.  There then comes a time after Christ comes to earth again in the fullness of His glory that the Final Judgment is made on the fate of all God's children.  In this Final judgment, Christ determines our conscience and judges us according to what our hearts desire.  Those who reject Christ with their hearts is cast out to outer darkness and wouldn't be with the Father nor Christ nor the Holy Ghost.  The rest of God's children is sifted to 3 kingdoms with varying degrees of glory - Telestrial glory, Terrestrial glory, or Celestial glory - according to the state of their hearts.  Those whose Will is aligned perfectly with God's Will may enter Celestial glory with the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  The glory of the Terrestrial Kingdom is a lower degree of glory than the Celestial and the Telestial Kingdom is lower than Terrestrial.  It can be akin to gazing at the amount of light at the sky from earth - the brightness of the sun is akin to Celestial glory, the moon Terrestrial glory, and the stars Telestial glory.  But the Telestial Kingdom - the lowest of the glories - is a glory far greater than that of earth life... it will be much better than the NFL package.

Although, we refrain from judging people's hearts and where they would end up on Final Judgment, the stories in the Bible leads us to believe that King David will not be able to enter Celestial glory.

What did king David do to lead us to believe that? Are you referring to when he sent out the husband of the woman he was having an affair with into war to be killed? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share